First Group: General Discussion

[Dentonian]

Yes, 62 or 13 plate originally ex Wessex Wright Eclipse, I think it was inevitable that the 461 Surrey route wouldn't be able to support both Abellio & Hallmark.

I understand that Diamond NW have submitted commercial registrations replacing further First Manchester services over & above just the 575. Yet people say running buses in Manchester isn't attractive what with the threat of Quality Contracts hanging over commercial operators heads.....

It will be interesting to see how Rotala and Transdev treat passengers (sorry, customers) as relatively new kids on the block. First have always been remote and incompetent, whilst Stagecoach suddenly pressed the self destruct button around four years ago and are increasingly contemptuous of their car-less "core" market. Stagecoach, in particular have been very vociferous in publicly criticising GM's local authorities over lack of bus priorities. And they would have a point, except they specifically cite cross city routes where they chose to compete with First. As a non-local, I'll let you off not putting "Greater" in front of Manchester above, but this is a fundamental argument put forward by TFGM/C in seeking Bus Reform. Greater Manchester has historically had highly remunarative bus services in the satellite towns - especially those to the east of the county - not just within or to the city of Manchester. However, there is an accelerating trend towards cutting local bus services and concentrating on core routes, combined with charging much higher fares in low car ownership areas. Cutting yet more local services in Bolton is exactly what TFGM/C have predicted will happen with continued deregulation, and this is doubtless being fed through to GMCA and Andy Burnham.

 

[Dentonian]

Think we're at crossed purposes. Probably my fault - thought it was about culling services but happy to concede culpability for confusing things

I wouldn't worry about it, all interpretations have an element of truth about them.

 

[F Great Eastern]

7 new Plaxton Panthers for First Aircoach's 705X Belfast to Dublin Non Stop have today entered service after a number of delays following delivery in December.

Image courtesy of Aircoach twitter.

 

[Dentonian]

It will be interesting to see how Rotala and Transdev treat passengers (sorry, customers) as relatively new kids on the block. First have always been remote and incompetent, whilst Stagecoach suddenly pressed the self destruct button around four years ago and are increasingly contemptuous of their car-less "core" market. Stagecoach, in particular have been very vociferous in publicly criticising GM's local authorities over lack of bus priorities. And they would have a point, except they specifically cite cross city routes where they chose to compete with First. As a non-local, I'll let you off not putting "Greater" in front of Manchester above, but this is a fundamental argument put forward by TFGM/C in seeking Bus Reform. Greater Manchester has historically had highly remunarative bus services in the satellite towns - especially those to the east of the county - not just within or to the city of Manchester. However, there is an accelerating trend towards cutting local bus services and concentrating on core routes, combined with charging much higher fares in low car ownership areas. Cutting yet more local services in Bolton is exactly what TFGM/C have predicted will happen with continued deregulation, and this is doubtless being fed through to GMCA and Andy Burnham.

Another service deregistration has just been revealed; 88 (White Moss to Manchester). This is currently a 15 minute service, and notwithstanding it running to the city centre has similar characteristics to the Bolton withdrawals; Historically very profitable service - albeit route split a few years ago - running through low car ownership areas.

 

[overthewater]

Thats First aberdeen doing more service changes, hopeful were get a clearly pic over the coming days

 

[Volvodart]

Seems to be minor adjustments only, not really big cuts, although frequencies are not known yet.

 

[overthewater]

I hope your right:

PM0000631/180 Cancelled
FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
Route: Hillhead of Seaton to Ferryhill via Old Aberdeen, Aberdeen University
Service number: 25
Service type: Normal Stopping
Effective date: 01 Apr 2018

PM0000631/191 Cancelled
FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
Route: Dubford or Bridge of Don, Scotstown to Aberdeen Royal Infirmary via Tillydrone
Service number: 8 (9)
Service type: Normal Stopping
Effective date: 01 Apr 2018

PM0000631/193 Cancelled
FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
Route: Dubford to Aberdeen Royal Infirmary via Bridge of Don Park & Ride,
Service number: X40
Service type: Limited Stop

Effective date: 01 Apr 2018
PM0000631/196 Cancelled
FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
Route: Dyce Park & Ride to Aberdeen Guild Street
Service number: 16
Service type: Normal Stopping
Effective date: 01 Apr 2018

PM0000631/199 Cancelled
FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
Route: Hillhead of Seaton to Balnagask via Via Old Aberdeen, City Centre, WEllington Road
Service number: 20
Service type: Normal Stopping
Effective date: 01 Apr 2018

 

[Volvodart]

That is an evening service only. The 20 is to run all day again instead plus a new 1A covering part of the route also.

 

[overthewater]

What replacing the X40 and has First given up the fight against Stagecoach 727?

 

[Volvodart]

20 will go to Dubford instead of Hillhead, so no service from city centre to ARI (already covered by 23 every 7/8 minutes). The 16 was supposed to be renumbered to a 17 number but cannot see this in registration variation.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The 16 was supposed to be renumbered to a 17 number but cannot see this in registration variation.

The 16 will become the "17B" variation.

 

[overthewater]

Will the 20 stay every 30mins? or will there be extra peak buses? Also is the 8/9 being replaced, I heard it been getting passengers.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Will the 20 stay every 30mins? or will there be extra peak buses? Also is the 8/9 being replaced, I heard it been getting passengers.

Looks like the 9 will be going but that's not much of an issue as a footpath has been built from Balgownie to the main 8/18 bus stop. Whether or not the 8 gets increased to cover is unknown but i suspect if the 8 stays on it's current frequency then the 2 saved buses would be used on other routes to increase running time. The 20 is believed to be staying on a 30 minute frequency with extra buses at peaks.

Getting rid of the ARI - Heathryfold section on the 8 and the Town - ARI section on the X40 won't be much of an issue either as these have had low passenger numbers and those areas already have plenty of services.

I suspect the reason for the 1A serving Hillhead instead of the 20 is to allow the use of deckers. As they are now banned from the Old Aberdeen area.

 

[DragonEast]

Why is every network at First so darned complex that none of their own drivers, the passengers or their own depot management seem able to get it, much of the time? How do they expect to make money when everyone just throws their hands up in despair a lot of the time (apart, of course, from the financial engineering and that doesn't seem to have been too successful either)? Or is it just a hobby for bus enthusiasts to give other bus enthusiasts something to talk about? And no, it isn't the same with everyone else. Simplicity is the key to success oftentimes, and buses are no exception.

"First have no option". What, but to take any problem and make it worse?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Why is every network at First so darned complex

To be honest any bus network will look complex if you've not lived in the place for a good number of years.

 

[smtglasgow]

Funnily enough, Glasgow’s Simplicity generated gems like the 38 ‘group’ - 38, 38a, 38b, 38c and 38e – or The One, which is broken down into the 1, 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d and 1e. So not at all simple, really.

 

[overthewater]

Don't look at Trentbarton

 

[Jordan Adam]

Soon the 17, 17A, 17B, 17D, N17, 18, 18A, N18, 21A, 21B, 21C & N21 will all be variations of the same route....

Part of that is caused by the School services 21A,21B,21C and night service N21 not being renumbered to 18* numbers when the 21 became the 18 back in 2012 though...

 

[overthewater]

The rest of the changes have went thought in Aberdeen: It would seem the 8 will get half service via a new 8A on a weekday... there will no longer serve Heathryfold. I still think it would be better if the 8/8A just went straight to the Hospital then to the City centre.

• PM0000631/197 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: Dyce or Newhills to Faulds Gate via Bucksburn, Great Northern Road, George Street
  Service number: 17 (17A, 18, 17B)
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 01 Apr 2018
  
  
• PM0000631/195 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: Dyce to Redmoss via Stoneywood, Danestone, Tillydrone
  Service number: 18
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 01 Apr 2018
  
  
• PM0000631/194 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: St Nicholas Kirk, Aberdeen to Howe Moss Road via Hilton, Dyce
  Service number: 117
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 01 Apr 2018
  
  
• PM0000631/165 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: Airyhall, Countesswells Ave to Airyhall, Counteswells Ave via Aberdeen
  Service number: 15
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 02 Apr 2018
  
  
• PM0000631/164 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: Northfield (Howes Rd) to Woodend via Berryden, Aberdeen, Woodend, Kingswells
  Service number: 11
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 02 Apr 2018
  
  
• PM0000631/154 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: Scatterburn, Manor Avenue to Dubford, Dubford Road via Mastrick, Union Street, Bridge of Don
  Service number: 13
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 02 Apr 2018
  
  
• PM0000631/130 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: Mastrick, Greenfern Road to Cove, Cove Road or Charleston Road via Aberdeen Royal Infirmary
  Service number: 3
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 02 Apr 2018
  
  
• PM0000631/1 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: Culter to Tillydrone
  Service number: 19
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 01 Apr 2018
  
  
• PM0000631/16 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: Heatheryfold to Torry via Forresterhill Hospital, Guild Street
  Service number: 12
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 01 Apr 2018
  
  
• PM0000631/9 Registered
  FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
  Route: Aberdeen, Summerhill to Heathryfold
  Service number: 23
  Service type: Normal Stopping
  Effective date: 01 Apr 2018
• • PM0000631/203 Registered
    FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
    Route: Dubford, Shieldhill Drive to Bus Port, ARI via Danestone, Hilton
    Service number: 8A
    Service type: Normal Stopping
    Effective date: 01 Apr 2018
    
    
  • PM0000631/202 Registered
    FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
    Route: Shielhill Drive, Dubford to Bus Port, ARI via Danestone, Tillydrone
    Service number: 8
    Service type: Normal Stopping
    Effective date: 01 Apr 2018
    
    
  • PM0000631/201 Registered
    FIRST ABERDEEN LTD
    Route: Shielhill Drive, Dubford to Balnagask Circle via AECC- Old Aberdeen- Bridge Street
    Service number: 20
    Service type: Normal Stopping
    Effective date: 01 Apr 2018

 

[Jordan Adam]

The rest of the changes have went thought in Aberdeen: It would seem the 8 will get half service via a new 8A on a weekday... there will no longer serve Heathryfold. I still think it would be better if the 8/8A just went straight to the Hospital then to the City centre.

The 8A is said to be a peak time service. The main market just now on the 8/9 is between Bridge Of Don, Tillydrone and the city centre. so having the service not serve the Citycentre would be a disaster.
I've never seen more than 5 people travel between town and ARI on either routes. But City centre to Bridge Of Don is another story

 

[Bantamzen]

First have tweeted some photos of the first new buses for Leeds

https://twitter.com/stufillingham/status/960782000851509248

Apologies if I haven’t followed to protocol for linking to tweets

I've seen at least one working the 6 to Holt Park this week. Ironically it was parked up at Leeds bus station next to a TransDev Aireline 60 and for a moment I thought it was a new TransDev vehicle because the two looked like they had an almost identical livery at the front.

 

[overthewater]

The 8A is said to be a peak time service. The main market just now on the 8/9 is between Bridge Of Don, Tillydrone and the city centre. so having the service not serve the Citycentre would be a disaster.
I've never seen more than 5 people travel between town and ARI on either routes. But City centre to Bridge Of Don is another story

But service 8/9 runs on top of 18 and 19 for most of the route? And now the service is getting cut, hence why you have to wonder why it sitting to the current route.

its a shame the old First website isnt still up we could have dragged out an old map from Aberdeen network to compere..

 

[Jordan Adam]

But service 8/9 runs on top of 18 and 19 for most of the route? And now the service is getting cut, hence why you have to wonder why it sitting to the current route.

its a shame the old First website isnt still up we could have dragged out an old map from Aberdeen network to compere..

To be fair the 9 being cut currently runs along side a 18 and 19 just now. It's only 1 bus per hour so it won't affect Tillydrone all that much. I still think they're very wrong to be getting rid of the 9 and not increasing the 8. They've effectively created a market and are now getting rid of it. Service level to Whitestripes will return to the same it was pre August 2016, Dubford will return to pre April 2017 and Tillydrone will still have far more buses than it did 2 years ago. And still double the number it had pre 2012.

I have a number of older First Aberdeen maps...

 

[overthewater]

If you highlight a 2001/2002 map that would be nice to compare:


Here is the 2011 map:

 

[Robertj21a]

Only just noticed that poor results in the USA have pushed the First Group share price well down again.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Only just noticed that poor results in the USA have pushed the First Group share price well down again.

I’d missed that too. Perhaps the markets are beginning to lose patience?

Interestingly, given what we were discussing about bonds the other week...

They are redeeming the £300m bond (8.125%) in favour of two bonds totalling £275m (yes, paying a chunk down!).

New percentage is a weighted average of 4.25% so saving FGP a tidy £14m p.a.

 

[Jordan Adam]

If you highlight a 2001/2002 map that would be nice to compare

I have maps from 1997, 2001 and 2008 on my flickr that i put up a while back.

1997:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanadam44/36426346063/in/album-72157680493685561/

2001:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanadam44/38363767386/in/album-72157680493685561/

2008:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanadam44/37705229284/in/album-72157680493685561/

It should be noted that in the past few years most areas of the city have stayed at a same level of service or improved. Tillydrone for example has went from 4BPH to 9BPH, Danestone: 5BPH to 8BPH, Heathryfold: 10BPH to 16BPH and so on...

 

[Volvodart]

I’d missed that too. Perhaps the markets are beginning to lose patience?

It just goes to show they need the UK operations as the US has proved time and again there are problems at this time of the year.

 

[Robertj21a]

It just goes to show they need the UK operations as the US has proved time and again there are problems at this time of the year.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that before. Looks like FGP share price is now at the lowest ever point ?

 

[oldman]

Looking at the trading statement, Greyhound is in deep trouble with airline competition and, reading between the lines, no quick fix. The analyst presentation has a pat on the head for Bristol and the Southwest, but mentions Essex, Manchester and 'our Scotland businesses' as needing more 'action'.

On the positive side, they are replacing some expensive debt with cheaper debt.

Having to constantly blame things like the weather ('in this quarter we had a bit of rain') and the timing of Easter doesn't make it look very healthy.