First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

Re the Slough changes.

Its obviously bad news, but what would worry me about Berkshire ops is the removal of two buses an hour in the Heathrow 7 route. If a trunk route like that is being shredded i dread to see how the others are doing.

And with Reading Buses starting to dip a toe in the area i can't help but think of Edinburgh..

In short, First Berkshire is a lost cause. It deserves to be put down in the nicest way possible.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Probably the fact it's a council owned operator helps them with that, probably less interested in making a profit and more breaking even and there is probably council money put into it?

They made about £1.9m on £32m last year (just checked) so they make a decent crust. The bus priority and buoyant economy helps!

 

[Non Multi]

Reading is a university town, spread over a wide geographic area.

 

[F Great Eastern]

First really is run bad in quite a few areas, I think a lot of this is due to the debt mountain they have and it's become a vicious circle.

They don't invest in operations because they're not making money which leads to services not being viable and cuts which leads to less money being made which leads to more service cuts, even less investment which leads to even poorer returns and even less services being viable and more service cuts and even less investment. It's like a vicious circle.

Really the purchase of Laidlaw all those years back is really coming to haunt them now, the debt is crippling the business and pretty much the whole bus network is in decline and a vicious circle that shows no kind of stopping is in progress.

 

[overthewater]

In short, First Berkshire is a lost cause. It deserves to be put down in the nicest way possible.

Its a three horse racing on who could replace them.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Isn't Marc Reddy supposed to be a good busman?

Is it that the likes of Marc and other local management are bad and are at fault here or is it because of the fact they have little in the way of resources given to them,by HQ who have ordered large cost cutting therefore are on a hiding to nothing?

 

[baza585]

I doubt First will be all that worried about the loss of a few marginal routes, and Reading Buses picking up some of the resultant tenders.

Re the 7, the traffic congestion is appalling, and a 10 minute headway leads to bunching. Suspect they may just be reflecting the reality of operating conditions.

Notable that FHDB have cut nothing in Solent, minor cuts only in Dorset but significant cuts in Berkshire and Southampton. I have long suspected that Solent makes the money; this seems to confirm that. I suspect all First opcos have been told to find savings in PVR/costs, and this is how Marc has chosen to find the required savings. ISTR Slough was chocca after Bracknell closed; less so after these reductions.

Any sightings of displaced Green line B9s welcome!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Any sightings of displaced Green line B9s welcome!

Especially welcome on the X51/X53, I would suggest

 

[baza585]

Hi

Especially welcome on the X51/X53, I would suggest

Indeed. My feeling is that it may not happen though IMHO it is what Weymouth need to provide a reliable X51/3 service.

I wouldn't be hugely surprised if some end up outside FHDB, though I would be somewhat vexed!!

 

[Non Multi]

I still think it's unlikely but - it could be the start of an exit strategy from Berkshire with 'Thames Valley' set up to take over routes when required. I've been very impressed with Reading's services when I've been there. Good local marketing, high frequency routes, lots of useful real time info on board, contactless payment & ITSO - we don't get that with First Slough.

 

[Dentonian]

The key, enthusiastic, pro-active, quality, manager moved on........

A pattern not unique to First, I'm afraid.

 

[d1672]

First really is run bad in quite a few areas, I think a lot of this is due to the debt mountain they have and it's become a vicious circle.

They don't invest in operations because they're not making money which leads to services not being viable, which leads to less money being made which leads to even poorer returns and even less services being viable. It's like a vicious circle.

Really the purchase of Laidlaw all those years back is really coming to haunt them now, the debt is crippling the business and pretty much the whole bus network is in decline and a vicious circle that shows no kind of stopping is in progress.

You describe the "Spiral of Decline" perfectly. This is happening in a lot of First Companies.

 

[overthewater]

I think First need to do a Midland Bluebird and just slash everything in one go, instead of going around the houses, It might get UKbus back on track instead of trying to keep its so called pride.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Of course they shouldn't be throwing money at just any old route that has no potential, that would be silly but there are plenty of places that have potential that are being neglected or half baked solutions that are done on the cheap.

The Essex X30 services between Chelmsford and Stansted was doing really well. When the 2008 49 seat coaches had to be replaced because of DDA requirements they replaced them with far more basic Enviro 200 single deckers that could seat 30 with seats often out of use because they've got luggage stacked in them and seats being taken out for extra luggage racks and started leaving people behind and charged the same premium fare for the basic bus as they did for a coach.

 

[Volvodart]

You describe the "Spiral of Decline" perfectly. This is happening in a lot of First Companies.

As has been pointed out on here before, apart from in a few areas, what is happening at First UK bus is happening to all bus companies. The easy back office cuts were done firstly, which is why there are all the service changes coming in a big batch just now.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The thing is that this has been going on with First for many many years now, it's not just a recent thing.

 

[Volvodart]

I am talking about the recent round of cuts instigated a year ago because they were nowhere near getting to the double digit margin they said they would get to.

 

[Volvodart]

Any sign of the new Leeds buses which the MD said not long ago would start entering service by the end of the year?

 

[Robertj21a]

Of course they shouldn't be throwing money at just any old route that has no potential, that would be silly but there are plenty of places that have potential that are being neglected or half baked solutions that are done on the cheap.

The Essex X30 services between Chelmsford and Stansted was doing really well. When the 2008 49 seat coaches had to be replaced because of DDA requirements they replaced them with far more basic Enviro 200 single deckers that could seat 30 with seats often out of use because they've got luggage stacked in them and seats being taken out for extra luggage racks and started leaving people behind and charged the same premium fare for the basic bus as they did for a coach.

I doubt that coaches had to be replaced because of DDA requirements, because coaches aren't affected until 2020.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I doubt that coaches had to be replaced because of DDA requirements, because coaches aren't affected until 2020.

That's what is stated by First since the service was registered as a bus service using coaches rather than being registered as a coach service for many years to get around certain legislation in relation to tachographs.

 

[robertclark125]

There's a bizarre similarity here between what's happening at First, and what happened at the Glasgow Subway between 1965 and 1977, the latter year when it closed for rebuilding. There were years of uncertainty, about whether there would be a subway or not. There were the run down stations, and there are some aspects of First which appear to be down at heel. More importantly, between 1965 and 1977, and I quote from the book "Circles under the clyde", the day to day operrations had been left to those who had found way to make it work, without understanding the principles involved.

With that last point, I actually fear that, in some areas, that's what's been happening.

 

[route101]

There's a bizarre similarity here between what's happening at First, and what happened at the Glasgow Subway between 1965 and 1977, the latter year when it closed for rebuilding. There were years of uncertainty, about whether there would be a subway or not. There were the run down stations, and there are some aspects of First which appear to be down at heel. More importantly, between 1965 and 1977, and I quote from the book "Circles under the clyde", the day to day operrations had been left to those who had found way to make it work, without understanding the principles involved.

With that last point, I actually fear that, in some areas, that's what's been happening.

Glasgow deserves a much better operation , cant see McGills doing that unless they use deckers .

Seen a new 67 plate airport bus at Caley depot .

 

[Goldfish62]

I doubt First will be all that worried about the loss of a few marginal routes, and Reading Buses picking up some of the resultant tenders.

Re the 7, the traffic congestion is appalling, and a 10 minute headway leads to bunching. Suspect they may just be reflecting the reality of operating conditions.

Notable that FHDB have cut nothing in Solent, minor cuts only in Dorset but significant cuts in Berkshire and Southampton. I have long suspected that Solent makes the money; this seems to confirm that. I suspect all First opcos have been told to find savings in PVR/costs, and this is how Marc has chosen to find the required savings. ISTR Slough was chocca after Bracknell closed; less so after these reductions.

Any sightings of displaced Green line B9s welcome!

If you're referring to the 702 in your first paragraph, there was no tendering involved. First deregistered it and Reading decided to register a replacement commercially. It certainly wasn't a given that the route would would continue in any form.

 

[baza585]

If you're referring to the 702 in your first paragraph, there was no tendering involved. First deregistered it and Reading decided to register a replacement commercially. It certainly wasn't a given that the route would would continue in any form.

I wasn't. I was referring to the 4,5 & 6 tenders in Slough where RB are running all or part of the service after First come off. I realise the 702 is fully commercial and I wish RB well with it.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wasn't. I was referring to the 4,5 & 6 tenders in Slough where RB are running all or part of the service after First come off. I realise the 702 is fully commercial and I wish RB well with it.

Ah, apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

[DragonEast]

I keep banging on about it, but I suspect the root of the issue is that the First UK "traditional bus" model of business is broken, at least in the shires, destroyed by congestion, funding cuts and modern lifestyles. It was fine when we worked shifts in factories, kept office-hours and Councils threw money at bus networks. First are still searching for that nivarna.

I suspect that traditional buses are the new heritage railways, something for enthusiasts to drool over, hence the "success" for Reading Bus Green Line heritage day on Christmas Eve. Perhaps they might even be able to breathe some life into the 702 by making it into some sort of style-icon. Good luck to them, and I do mean it, sincerely. My fear is that it is another Arriva 797, taken on a couple of years ago by Uno in like circumstances, and abandoned a year later. In a sense well done to First for keeping theirs going for longer, but it's a Pyrrhic victory. Nostalgia isn't enough. I grew up on Green Lines, so fond memories - even though they were trying enough in the nineteen-sixties and seventies (and had more reinventions that I had hot dinners, even then)! Watch out, 724.

The future is Uber style, and whilst other operators dip their toes in with minibus and demand responsive services, First have neither the resources nor the imagination. (Even a Government minister recognises the fact, apparently). So they are, quite frankly, left with managing decline. And this is the result, a painful muddle whilst the rest of us wonder what they are playing at. We aren't good as a country at managing decline, are we? We should have enough experience. Public Transport (looked at as a whole, that's transport which the rest of us pay for in one way or another) is a complete mess, hopelessly inefficient. Just look at the amount of empty passenger-carrying traffic about, for example. The timetabled buses are just the tip of a very large iceberg.

But as for First Berkshire, it's given enough hints down the years that it's Heathrow Bus (and now Heathrow is suffering too). Similarly, if we want to see the future for our our local First Bus OpCo, perhaps we too have to identify the local saviour or the Promised Land (if there is one). First as a traditional network operator is perhaps a lame duck, if not quite yet a dead duck. But it isn't quacking so we are unlikely to be told anything. As with all decline, it takes much longer than we expect, and there are still plenty of peaks (or false dawns) and even more troughs on the way down.

 

[overthewater]

Yet there are plenty of shift workers all over the place but the bus companies had failed to keep up with the changing peace of the world. If your spent money on a car to get to work then why on earth would you take the bus at the weekends?? The traditional bus model of business isn't broken, it just private companies have become fat cats and have lost there pioneering spirit to make changes when needed.

 

[DragonEast]

Yet there are plenty of shift workers all over the place but the bus companies had failed to keep up with the changing peace of the world. If your spent money on a car to get to work then why on earth would you take the bus at the weekends?? The traditional bus model of business isn't broken, it just private companies have become fat cats and have lost there pioneering spirit to make changes when needed.

Fat cats at First? Where's the cream?

 

[DragonEast]

What changes are these then in February for first in Essex

We now know a couple of them, the 41/72 around Chelmsford, withdrawn. They both cannibalise other First routes. The changes too might displace some of the worst wrecks from the fleet! And they are cuts that seem to neatly sidestep any political upset, (or at least any that matters).

The 72 is amazing. It, or some variant, appears every couple of years; then disappears a couple of years later. It's a cycle that's been going on for decades. All grist to the mill that Eastern National/First Essex are the clueless wonders (or another acronym)! Though I suppose it did give drivers displaced from the closed Braintree depot something to do temporarily!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yet there are plenty of shift workers all over the place but the bus companies had failed to keep up with the changing peace of the world. If your spent money on a car to get to work then why on earth would you take the bus at the weekends?? The traditional bus model of business isn't broken, it just private companies have become fat cats and have lost there pioneering spirit to make changes when needed.

Nurse - this man has lost his medication again

I'm not certain what has prompted this outburst....