First Group: General Discussion

[Baxenden Bank]

Reasons not to be hopeful. Part 94.

I collected a set of new First in The Potteries timetables today.

Timetables change 26 November.
Fares revised 26 November.
Timetables printed showing old fares. There is undoubtedly a good reason for this, but it escapes me for the moment.

I say a full set but the 32 is missing. Perhaps due to the registration not matching what they intended to run - so no printed timetable until they catch each other up in January. In the meantime will the Saturday evening journeys run?

 

[turboslug]

Arriva will follow on from first, yes they are investing but their network is shrinking especially their north west & wales division in last 10 years there has been depot closures, many routes cut, in north wales their network has only grown due to 2 operators going bust padarn & gha, cutting routes when got competition on before scrapping route, network on wirral smaller, caused uproar in runcorn when new bridge opened that they had to revise routes, halton transport got theirs right straight away, virtually vanişhed in south manchester, one depot there only has 5 routes now & 3 of them go same places, took over blue bus in bolton, most routes gone, there is many more plus at the moment their in middle of a very damaging strike, some drivers in manchester division are coming in as their depots less profit than merseyside so fearing for their jobs, i know first rusholme are striking but routes are still running, arriva though have big problems on their hands their rail divisions in dispute also, i work for first on rail side & i do know that there are financial problems you can see how with certain changes they keep doing, i think they need to invest in certain areas, i live in west cheshire & when first had routes around here they had a decent network then let in run into the ground, if arriva had bought chester bus think first would of vanished as first operating area was so small arriva would of finished them off, as it was stagecoach bought firsts operations transformed them & already made their money back by selling chester depot for more than they paid first for the area

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Quite agree. It's probably fair to say that Arriva is hardly better than First in some/many of its operations - some are good but some are poor (just like First). We could well have an Arriva thread on here as well, with many of the usual issues arising, but this particular thread was started due to the poor financial state of First Group - and even their survival. I don't believe that any of the other 'Big 4' (or 5) were/are in the same financial state.

The discussions of First's finances have been undertaken ad nauseum. My point is not so much at that level but at the pure operational level.

There are the usual (and justifiable) mentions of First operations with poor quality - seats that need refurbishing, buses not being painted for years, network overhauls and renumberings all get mentioned. All as I say fair comment. We do get the odd comments about other groups less than brilliant operations - there was mention of Arriva in Kent recently as one example. However, nothing like the stuff that gets flung at First.

I mentioned Arriva Midlands as an example where there has been relatively little investment, certainly in the west of the operations (Staffs/Shrop) and where services continue to be cut. Two operations were purchased and have since been disposed of - imagine the uproar had that been First?

Arriva North East is an operation I know well. It is much reduced - since 2001, they've closed depots at Morpeth, Berwick, Alnwick, Hexham, Bishop Auckland, Peterlee, Stokesley, Richmond and Loftus - nine depots!! The enthusiasts will point to the investment and yes, a modern fleet but in Co Durham, these are now confined to a skeletal network of services. They still have buses in the original Arriva livery and they had some early low floors that were never repainted before leaving service 15/16 years later.

Of all the major groups, it is probably NX that are the ones who've improved most over the last few years, whilst Stagecoach are rightly recognised for their usual higher quality standards though they are not immune to the same pressures and failings that people point out. They are busy cutting back services all over the country and head to Swindon, and you'll find the collection of knackered Darts. They have modern deckers but route branding sometimes goes awry - in the last week or so, Gold deckers in Marlborough, Chippenham deckers in Trowbridge etc.

The difference with First, and it gets dull repeating it, is that they have entered this bad period for the entire industry but in the worst shape. FWIW, most enthusiasts don't understand financial statements, don't understand the simple economics of bus operation (i.e. how much it costs to run a vehicle, or how much it costs to employ a driver), and seem keen to highlight every cut that First make whilst seemingly ignoring the sins of other operators.

Another point is that people go on about "the bean counters" being behind everything. Well, businesses are there to do one thing. However, remember that First have recruited some very, very experienced people. Alex Carter, James Freeman, Nigel Eggleton - they're all people who have been around the block and know a damn sight more than any of us on this thread. Make no mistake - they are making the best of really tricky situations where they have little or no influence - council money is increasingly scant, traffic congestion is rising, they have major operations in the North/Mids/Scotland where the level of economic activity has collapsed (the UK rust belt), high street footfall is massively down. I don't work for First or in the industry at all but I was talking to a mate who has worked for about 20 years for a number of large bus groups. The challenges now are the worst he's seen and he doesn't work for First.

 

[DragonEast]

First ... is becoming an increasingly unplanned, disorganised and not very well thought through process.

I couldn't agree more from local experience in the East. In fairness these are problems that First inherited, along with the other local majors. But that was decades ago. The difference is that the rest deal with them, First haven't.

I would go so far as to suggest that the main problems aren't money. (Though of course we can argue that money is at the root of everything, and you can buy a solution to everything if you have enough money, but none of us ever do). The main problems are lack of communication, not just to the customers but within the company: the traffic division are doing one thing, the planning division another and the depots (let alone the drivers) are confused and overwhelmed. Good staff on the ground leave, out of sheer frustration (and the passengers give up when they can, and the sensible ones, they think, never even try). Passengers complain all the time about not being picked up, being given wrong and conflicting information, buses that don't park near the kerb when there is no excuse not to and other examples of poor driving, and drivers who are rude and unhelpful - these things matter, and aren't about the lack of capital. And you can never be sure what is going to turn up, even if it does, while peak routes get crammed at the same time as empty larger buses try to negotiate country lanes and narrow residential roads. Where First have taken over a contract service, the quality of service deteriorates noticeably (but not the other way around, so it isn't the consequence of the tender process which is always blamed). Urban routes, badly affected by congestion, are written in aspec to meet the needs of the 1950s whilst the other majors have adapted. I suspect that here First could cut their PVR by 50% and provide a better (and more profitable) service. Instead it looks like someone tried to create a mini London Transport DLO without the resources, and totally predictably ended up with chaos. And now we're stuck with it; there seems to be no evidence of priorities, everyone gets the bargain basement service (except with the fares, which are premium, though they are not alone in that). So there seems to be a single answer to everything: more buses, (more contracts and subsidies - yum), perhaps "to shut them up" it seems, and to hell with the consequences on reliability and morale if the services are just running too hot - just constantly tinker with the timetables, a minute or two here and there. It all keeps the bureaucracy employed (and perhaps the politicians and First HQ off their back with excuses?) And, I suppose, we don't have any of these magicians . . . "names" in the industry, to hand to wave their magic wand.

People say these are just local OpCo issues. Yes; but shouldn't the national operation exercise oversight of the OpCos, and the other nationals are cutting bureaucracy. What about First? I admit I was surprised when Giles Fearnely turned up and made the announcement of a route service improvement at a local Bus Users Group meeting. Why do that? I don't get the relationship between the OpCos and the centre at First. (And yes, I know that First have initiatives to deal with all these issues, but the question is whether it is any more than lip service?)

I suspect that, not inadvertently, a local respected ex MD who now runs his own company, hit the nail on the head when accepting a presentation award "we don't have the bureaucracy". Who are busy looking after themselves; whatever the magicians say, the staff complain or the passengers need. Sorry too but it seems that First fans suffer from the First disease, a blame culture to always make an excuse instead of trying to ease or find a way round the problem. Lack of capital is the easiest excuse in the book, it absolves you from the responsibility for anything. This is a rant, but I'm sick and tired of being told what a bright future First have, or that they "could be" great. I have no doubt those who say it believe it. But where is the evidence?

 

[Jordan Adam]

While in some areas this is not the case from what i can see over all there's a lack of enthusiasm and marketing, It's all good launching a new service but it's not going to go far if people don't know about it.

As you can see here back in April when First launched the new route 16 in Aberdeen they put some adverts along the bus route for the service. While this seems all good the adverts lack to tell people the actual route of the service. Instead just showing the main location at either end. As such for the first few months people would let the 16 pass and wait another 7/8 minutes for the 17 to turn up. Even thought the 16 goes the same route to the city centre. While the 16 has picked up a bit now it's taken over 6 months.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I couldn't agree more from local experience in the East. In fairness these are problems that First inherited, along with the other local majors. But that was decades ago. The difference is that the rest deal with them, First haven't.

I would go so far as to suggest that the main problems aren't money. (Though of course we can argue that money is at the root of everything, and you can buy a solution to everything if you have enough money, but none of us ever do). The main problems are lack of communication, not to the customers but within the company: the traffic division are doing one thing, the planning division another and the depots (let alone the drivers) are confused and overwhelmed. Good staff on the ground leave, out of sheer frustration (and the passengers give up when they can, and the sensible ones, they think, never even try). Passengers complain all the time about not being picked up, being given wrong and conflicting information, buses that don't park near the kerb when there is no excuse not to and other examples of poor driving, and drivers who are rude and unhelpful - these things matter, and aren't about the lack of capital. And you can never be sure what is going to turn up, even if it does, while peak routes get crammed at the same time as empty larger buses try to negotiate country lanes and narrow residential roads. Where First have taken over a contract service, the quality of service deteriorates noticeably (but not the other way around, so it isn't the consequence of the tender process which is always blamed). Urban routes, badly affected by congestion, are written in aspec to meet the needs of the 1950s whilst the other majors have adapted. I suspect that here First could cut their PVR by 50% and provide a better (and more profitable) service. Instead it looks like someone tried to create a mini London Transport DLO without the resources, and totally predictably ended up with chaos. And now we're stuck with it; there seems to be no evidence of priorities, everyone gets the bargain basement service (except with the fares, which are premium, though they are not alone in that). So there seems to be a single answer to everything: more buses, (more contracts and subsidies - yum), perhaps "to shut them up" it seems, and to hell with the consequences on reliability and morale if the services are just running too hot - just constantly tinker with the timetables, a minute or two here and there. It all keeps the bureaucracy employed. And, I suppose, we don't have any of these magicians . . . "names" in the industry, to hand to wave their magic wand.

People say these are just local OpCo issues. Yes; but shouldn't the national operation exercise oversight of the OpCos, and the other nationals are cutting bureaucracy. What about First? I admit I was surprised when Giles Fearnely turned up and made the announcement of a route service improvement at a local Bus Users Group meeting. Why do that? I don't get the relationship between the OpCos and the centre at First.

I suspect that, not inadvertently, a local respected ex MD who now runs his own company, hit the nail on the head when accepting a presentation award "we don't have the bureaucracy". Who are busy looking after themselves; whatever the magicians say, the staff complain or the passengers need. Sorry too but it seems that First fans suffer from the First disease, a blame culture to always make an excuse instead of trying to ease or find a way round the problem. Lack of capital is the easiest excuse in the book, it absolves you from the responsibility for anything. This is a rant, but I'm sick and tired of being told what a bright future First have, or that they "could be" great. I have no doubt those who say it believe it. But where is the evidence?

I don't know which is your local OpCo (FE or FEC?) but my local fleet is First West of England. They have a true busman in James Freeman - a guy with more experience, skill or enthusiasm than anyone. During his tenure, we've seen a lot of pluses and some minuses. There have been service reductions in the fringes of the network (and a couple more are coming) with cuts in Wiltshire and around Frome principally. Now, people are quick to gnash their teeth but I've predicted quite a few of those cuts. Not because I'm clever (I'm not) or because I work for First (I don't) or I've hacked JF's computer (I'm not part of FancyBears) - they've all been patently obvious moves because they don't carry many.

Now there are some clear quality issues. We're in the process of seeing the last B7Ls get dispatched north. They're fun to ride on (as a gricer) but as a paying punter, they're very tired and benefit from the atrocious seating that First specified in the early days of this century. Externally, they're absolutely battered, not having received any TLC since when they were in Northampton. The other issues are things like service reliability - some of this is due to terrible traffic around Bristol and Bath (which if you've ever tried driving is horrific especially if the M5 goes into meltdown) and some is due to driver shortages. The latter is a fair challenge but, to be honest, there are better paying jobs (Hinckley Point) that are skewing the market or you can work for Stagecoach or smaller firms and not work nights. Also, not wishing to be controversial but Brexit is also now having an impact. Whilst ridership is increasing in Bristol and Bath, the profits aren't following as driver shortages demand higher pay rates. It is a massive industry wide problem (and even worse in the Logistics sector).

Quality issues are apparent between depots but, and here's the rub..... it was ever thus. My late father was a driver for a large NBC subsidiary and if a vehicle was reallocated to his garage from certain depots, you just knew it would have been hammered. However, other depots (with just as punishing routes) would be miles better; sometimes it is a depot culture. People who've worked in the industry will tell you about canteen culture.... some places have a workforce that are more committed and you see that in terms of how standards of reliability, maintenance, presentation etc. However, whilst vehicles will undoubtedly break down, I can't recall the last time I was on a First bus that failed in service, or had to deal with a no show. You still see it in Stagecoach - as I said, Swindon depot is patchy whilst Stroud is really smartly run though they still didn't know about my Cotswold Discoverer ticket!

Bureaucracy is a problem with any corporate entity. It becomes a self perpetuating thing as well. I used to work for a firm owned by a foreign parent, and used to swap emails with one of my mates in another (bus) business to compare the lunacy.

The issues that First are experiencing are not specific to them, just that they were in a poor place anyway. In Bristol, where fares were restructured and investment has been made and patronage has increased, they have had to make some tough decisions. A few years ago, they received 10 elderly B10BLEs from Scotland just to add in extra resource into the existing network to cope with increasing traffic congestion. 10 extra vehicles adds probably £1m into the costs but you're not getting much additional patronage to offset it.

First Dorset are having the same issue. They're trying to grow a couple of their key services in Weymouth but the traffic on the Dorchester Road is destroying reliability in the summer (when they should make their money). They either put more resources in (more cost with same revenue) or they widen the headway (same cost but less revenue). It is a hard world out there.

My point was really this.... We get hysterical posts (and even new threads created) about First yet in the same county, Arriva are doing much the same and barely a mention. That someone in Scotland should scour the local Potteries rag for a story just seems like a Mrs Merton style "Let's have a heated debate".....or maybe I've just fallen for clickbait

 

[overthewater]

I do say sorry for not posting that in the other thread ( I was looking for an P not an S, ) in my reply.

 

[DragonEast]

I don't know which is your local OpCo (FE or FEC?) but my local fleet is First West of England.

First Essex. I compare them with FEC, and the local Arriva and Stagecoach operations that have the same NBC legacy. Everyone, including First, though perhaps less so at First Essex, has trimmed their marginal operations. That's not the issue. FEx are probably the highest paying out of London operator in the area. And the "depot culture" issues seem company-wide. I get all your points, but even allowing for them, and the horrible Essex congestion . . . the problem is still that First just seem to take all the problems (which are acknowledged) and make them worse. You are fortunate; broken down and faulty buses seem not an occasional occurrence but a habit, but again that's understandable. The general appearance of chaos isn't. Their predecessors (Eastern National) seemed to be getting a grip, which First seem to have lost. I'll be the first to acknowledge it's probably not the same elsewhere, but the reason I post in a national thread is that perhaps, it's a cultural thing, but not just locally, the national culture is part of the problem too. Are First mainly financial managers, which is fine if you have the right management and culture locally, but if you don't, it isn't. That is no way to run any successful business (though, yes, it's a problem every business has). Brexit too, just takes every existing problem and makes it worse. In that sense it's not the problem.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First Essex. I compare them with FEC, and the local Arriva and Stagecoach operations that have the same NBC legacy. Everyone, including First, though perhaps less so at First Essex, has trimmed their marginal operations. That's not the issue. FEx are probably the highest paying out of London operator in the area. And the "depot culture" issues seem company-wide. I get all your points, but even allowing for them, and the horrible Essex congestion . . . the problem is still that First just seem to take all the problems (which are acknowledged) and make them worse. You are fortunate; broken down and faulty buses seem not an occasional occurrence but a habit, but again that's understandable. The general appearance of chaos isn't. Their predecessors (Eastern National) seemed to be getting a grip, which First seem to have lost. I'll be the first to acknowledge it's probably not the same elsewhere, but the reason I post in a national thread is that perhaps, it's a cultural thing, but not just locally, the national culture is part of the problem too. Are First mainly financial managers, which is fine if you have the right management and culture locally, but if you don't, it isn't. That is no way to run any successful business (though, yes, it's a problem every business has). Brexit too, just takes every existing problem and makes it worse. In that sense it's not the problem.

Don’t know the First Essex’s MD’s career but people like James Freeman and Nigel Eggleton are career busmen. Brian Souter, however, was an accountant at Arthur Andersen.

Bus companies, like other businesses, are struggling with pre Brexit as people head from the UK owing to erosion of pay from the devaluation of the pound. It applies to many other industries as well (and the NHS) but it is still a real challenge

 

[Robertj21a]

Don’t know the First Essex’s MD’s career but people like James Freeman and Nigel Eggleton are career busmen. Brian Souter, however, was an accountant at Arthur Andersen.

Bus companies, like other businesses, are struggling with pre Brexit as people head from the UK owing to erosion of pay from the devaluation of the pound. It applies to many other industries as well (and the NHS) but it is still a real challenge

In fairness to Brian Souter, he's been a bus man (post-Arthur Andersen) ever since 1980, and was a bus conductor from even earlier days.

 

[DragonEast]

Don’t know the First Essex’s MD’s career but people like James Freeman and Nigel Eggleton are career busmen. Brian Souter, however, was an accountant at Arthur Andersen.

The Essex MD situation is interesting, to say the least. As far as I'm aware they don't have one at the moment, after Alex Jones left in May with no publicity, who I believe was a protege of Adrian Jones their last ex-London MD, who left First on the London disposal then shortly afterwards returned as Essex MD and then a couple of years later went up to HQ (when the other Jones took over) but doesn't seem to have been heard of since. Last years business review suggested that the former regional Commercial Manager, Steve Wickers (a long term local man, I think formerly associated with predecessor Eastern National) who seems to have left during Jones' tenure to become MD of FEC would take on the responsibility, though during the interim Justin Davies who I thought was the Wales MD seems to have at least nominally held the role though the remaining registered director is the First North region head! It's about as confusing as their buses, though perhaps not unusual for First! They did announce the appointment of a new Commercial Manager last year.

 

[overthewater]

Remember First are restructuring the operations. IE less Top brass, with smaller team covering more.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In fairness to Brian Souter, he's been a bus man (post-Arthur Andersen) ever since 1980, and was a bus conductor from even earlier days.

His father was a bus driver. Brian only worked as a duc during his uni breaks as he studied accountancy.

 

[exfiles]

Brian's brother was a bus driver and then became a Church of Scotland minister for what it's worth

 

[DragonEast]

Remember First are restructuring the operations. IE less Top brass, with smaller team covering more.

Yup. First Essex give the appearance of a company in which everyone does as they please. Which is probably right. First have lost the plot!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I do say sorry for not posting that in the other thread ( I was looking for an P not an S, ) in my reply.

Christ man.... you still don't get it. I see you've now begun an Arriva Midlands thread but you're still not getting the point!

The question is not whether you post that story from the Sentinel in the Staffs thread, the First thread or a new thread. The question is why someone who lives in Scotland should be scouring the local rag in Stoke?

It might appear that you're committed to stirring things up and creating hysteria??

 

[Blackpudding]

Christ man.... you still don't get it. I see you've now begun an Arriva Midlands thread but you're still not getting the point!

The question is not whether you post that story from the Sentinel in the Staffs thread, the First thread or a new thread. The question is why someone who lives in Scotland should be scouring the local rag in Stoke?

It might appear that you're committed to stirring things up and creating hysteria??

If you think this is bad TGW wait until next month when the individual trading company results are posted and the usual annual comments are regurgitated!

 

[overthewater]

Christ man.... you still don't get it. I see you've now begun an Arriva Midlands thread but you're still not getting the point!

The question is not whether you post that story from the Sentinel in the Staffs thread, the First thread or a new thread. The question is why someone who lives in Scotland should be scouring the local rag in Stoke?

It might appear that you're committed to stirring things up and creating hysteria??

I don't read the local rags or even went searching for the stuff. It appear on facebook feed; I read it and thought that a well written place and also explains what going on without blaming anyone overall ie its a number of factors. So I postaged it so other could read it and some others have also said it was a "good article"

People think it's a good read and its explains the current issues and problems raised, I can't see why there is a hysteria.

Your only as strong as your weakest link and in First group that is Potteries. For Stagecoach it seems to be Lincolnshire, while Go Ahead its East Anglia area. Hopeful some people will post more about Arriva and its weakest link ca be highlighted.

If you think this is bad TGW wait until next month when the individual trading company results are posted and the usual annual comments are regurgitated!

Not to worry Midland bluebird back in business so its making a profit and on the up and up, So we cant regurgitated the previous years comments, that would be silly and inaccurate.

 

[6Gman]

Your only as strong as your weakest link and in First group that is Potteries. For Stagecoach it seems to be Lincolnshire, while Go Ahead its East Anglia area. Hopeful some people will post more about Arriva and its weakest link ca be highlighted.

In what sense is this cliché true in relation to a bus group?

Lincolnshire may (or may not) be a "weakest link" in Stagecoach, but it's massively outweighed by operations such as Manchester and certainly doesn't impact on the group overall or the performance or viability of other subsidiaries.

(I write as a Stagecoach shareholder.)

 

[overthewater]

Surly you want ALL parts of the business to succeed. It's about the brand. of course Lincolnshire has problems because of the rural area while the towns of Scunthopre and Grimbsy are having real battles to keep going but they're trying ideas out etc.

Mind you look at Poundstretchers there have a lot of weakest links in there company and there dont seem to care which does not give it a good reputation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't read the local rags or even went searching for the stuff. It appear on facebook feed; I read it and thought that a well written place and also explains what going on without blaming anyone overall ie its a number of factors. So I postaged it so other could read it and some others have also said it was a "good article"

People think it's a good read and its explains the current issues and problems raised, I can't see why there is a hysteria.

Your only as strong as your weakest link and in First group that is Potteries. For Stagecoach it seems to be Lincolnshire, while Go Ahead its East Anglia area. Hopeful some people will post more about Arriva and its weakest link ca be highlighted.



Not to worry Midland bluebird back in business so its making a profit and on the up and up, So we cant regurgitated the previous years comments, that would be silly and inaccurate.

Why would you be hopeful that Arriva's weakest link can be exposed? For what reason?

Also, "people think it's a good read" - one person said that. The fact that you created a new thread (I know you've conceded you shouldn't have) probably illustrates your thinking....

As said above, what is the criteria of the weakest link? Why is it important? Lincolnshire may well be weak for Stagecoach but what of it? It's traditionally been a tough area - what does it prove?

 

[overthewater]

Why would you be hopeful that Arriva's weakest link can be exposed? For what reason?

Thats a very good point. Its simple, to see if Arriva are able to help sort its self out. IF Town X is in a mess and then over a year its get better then surely that should be highlighted?

Also, "people think it's a good read" - one person said that. The fact that you created a new thread (I know you've conceded you shouldn't have) probably illustrates your thinking....

It still think it was right to post a decent piece, it's just my misgivings are it should have went into that Staffordshire, ( I did ask the mods to merge it in) I think I also misunderstood that thread . Egg on me.

As said above, what is the criteria of the weakest link? Why is it important? Lincolnshire may well be weak for Stagecoach but what of it? It's traditionally been a tough area - what does it prove?

Criteria? battle to provide the network. Stagecoach has still sent new buses to the area over the years. If stagecoach are in a very tough area, yet it can also hold its own and create some new ideas very slowly, ( which actually lead to a Very small increase in PVR) then surly First should be able to do the same, which out swinging the sword?

Why is it important? Because if one part of the company is in the gutter then whats the stop other parts going the same way? Look at Poundstretchers, half there shops are dirty as a dump that not a good image to show off, Heck even the Edinburgh princess street branch ( just off Princes street by 10sec) has shut, must likely because it was mess and dirty. So if you know one branch is crap your going to be ware about another aren't you.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thats a very good point. Its simple, to see if Arriva are able to help sort its self out. IF Town X is in a mess and then over a year its get better then surely that should be highlighted?


It still think it was right to post a decent piece, it's just my misgivings are it should have went into that Staffordshire, ( I did ask the mods to merge it in) I think I also misunderstood that thread . Egg on me.



Criteria? battle to provide the network. Stagecoach has still sent new buses to the area over the years. If stagecoach are in a very tough area, yet it can also hold its own and create some new ideas very slowly, ( which actually lead to a Very small increase in PVR) then surly First should be able to do the same, which out swinging the sword?

Why is it important? Because if one part of the company is in the gutter then whats the stop other parts going the same way? Look at Poundstretchers, half there shops are dirty as a dump that not a good image to show off, Heck even the Edinburgh princess street branch ( just off Princes street by 10sec) has shut, must likely because it was mess and dirty. So if you know one branch is crap your going to be ware about another aren't you.

WTF - now you're on about Poundstretchers?

And, of course, Potteries has had new buses to the area so it must be as good as Stagecoach Lincolnshire? Very muddled thinking.....

 

[overthewater]

You what I mean, People views are very narrow, there can get on a bus, have crap jounrey and there be like the bus service stinks etc etc it may not be that bad but that how the public see it, it works for all shops, brands, companies. Arriva made sure none the "Cross Country" trains had arriva on them because the company believe the public thought badly of its brand. That is why the weakest link matters.

 

[THarris123]

You what I mean, People views are very narrow, there can get on a bus, have crap jounrey and there be like the bus service stinks etc etc it may not be that bad but that how the public see it, it works for all shops, brands, companies. Arriva made sure none the "Cross Country" trains had arriva on them because the company believe the public thought badly of its brand. That is why the weakest link matters.

I think you'll find that each of the Cross Country trains have writing on the side stating that it's part of the Arriva DB Group.

 

[overthewater]

I think you'll find that each of the Cross Country trains have writing on the side stating that it's part of the Arriva DB Group.

When was that added? Has that always on on the train since 2007?

 

[THarris123]

When was that added? Has that always on on the train since 2007?

As far as I know yes. When I used to use trains it was in white writing in the middle of the carriage.

 

[overthewater]

That was a trick Q since Arriva was never part of the DB group until 2010. I was told from 2007 when there got the contract there was nothing to link it to Arrvia, it seems that has now since changed.

 

[THarris123]

That was a trick Q since Arriva was never part of the DB group until 2010. I was told from 2007 when there got the contract there was nothing to link it to Arrvia, it seems that has now since changed.

Well I don't know if it was from 2007. I wasn't using trains then as I was still in school.

I have no idea. All I know is that it states that Cross Country is something to do with Arriva on the outside of their trains, which suggests your point is incorrect.

Now can we move on to talk about First. And preferably for you to talk about First in Scotland rather than Potteries.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That was a trick Q since Arriva was never part of the DB group until 2010. I was told from 2007 when there got the contract there was nothing to link it to Arrvia, it seems that has now since changed.

Trick questions? Really???