First Group: General Discussion

[THarris123]

Route one has some news on the First 2017 new buses order:-

http://www.route-one.net/articles/Bus_routes/First_to_run_debut_MetroBus_route

Well that's 5 buses

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well that's 5 buses

....that you can add to 20 new e400 for Kernow and the Airport Flyer services for Bristol.

 

[THarris123]

....that you can add to 20 new e400 for Kernow and the Airport Flyer services for Bristol.

So so far...
20 E400s Kernow
5 Scania E400s Bristol Metrobus
14 Scania E400s Bristol A1
3 E200s Weston A3

Then theres new vehicles for York Park and Ride and Leeds

 

[F Great Eastern]

There is at least 6 coaches on order for Aircoach for the Dublin to Belfast route
(confirmed by First)

 

[Volvodart]

First Kernow Facebook had a post yesterday apologising for the services this week and stated that they have had approval for a "huge" investment in new vehicles due from the beginning of 2018. It also states that the new Ticketer machines are being installed this weekend.

https://www.facebook.com/firstkernowbus/posts/1524800517582666

It's Friday evening and the weekend is almost here. Hopefully our customers will have an enjoyable weekend in the sun.
It's no secret that we've struggled through another week running our buses in Cornwall.
The traffic is busy with lots of visitors about and incidents on the network, and the heat isn't helping.
But aside from the weather roadworks and volume of traffic, we're very conscious that we're still not delivering the sort of quality of service that we really do want to across Cornwall.
Our drivers, engineers and support staff are working their socks off and we're trying hard, but we're on a journey of our own to improve many aspects of our service to customers.
Our oldest buses are struggling and the reliability isn't anywhere near what it should be. We've got approval for a huge investment in new vehicles due from the beginning of 2018, but we've got to do our best to get to then.
We know just how frustrating the unreliability is to customers, and that every journey is important.
We're investing too in our workshops to make them more effective and the reopening of a full maintenance facility in Penzance is an important need. That's something we're hoping to have in place by the end of 2017.
We're looking to improve the bus station facilities in Truro and St Ives shortly, and Cornwall Council have done a great job in providing new weatherproof shelters in Penzance Bus Station.
This weekend we're changing all our ticket machines with 'growth fund' monies through Cornwall Council. This will allow contactless payments to commence on all buses in a few weeks, and the real time information displays to work in real time once again.
We're working on a reorganisation of our cleaning teams to make cleaning of buses more effective.
We know that customers quite understandably want it to be right today.
We'll do our best to provide the best service we can, but with the commitment to work towards a much better service over the next 6-12 months.
Please accept our apologies for any disruption and dissatisfaction. We're genuinely committed to doing better for our loyal and very much appreciated customers.

 

[overthewater]

First Kernow Facebook had a post yesterday apologising for the services this week and stated that they have had approval for a "huge" investment in new vehicles due from the beginning of 2018. It also states that the new Ticketer machines are being installed this weekend.

That would imply Kernow are due a good amount from this 2017/18 order, whatever that may be. It would be nice to know.

 

[83G/84D]

First Kernow Facebook had a post yesterday apologising for the services this week and stated that they have had approval for a "huge" investment in new vehicles due from the beginning of 2018. It also states that the new Ticketer machines are being installed this weekend.

Some Solo replacements & some E200 MMC's would be nice in addition to the extra E400 MMC's that seem to be coming.

That's just my wish list and may be way off the mark. On the other hand it might be that somewhere else will be getting new single decks with cascades of vehicles to Cornwall.

Hopefully all will become clearer whenever the orders are eventually announced.

 

[DragonEast]

Good to see the West has got the message, which has escaped the other end of the country, in Essex where their model is to turn themselves into a cowboy operator, grabbing routes whilst management don't care and the staff do as they please. Not just my view but that of the local industry, as well as fair number of the passengers who have to endure them on a daily basis.

They've already had their collars felt by the Traffic Commissioners, and the last operator that happened to locally, ended up with their licence revoked second time around. It probably couldn't come soon enough for the passengers, and (like Borders) could be the best thing for First allowing them to redeploy resources where they can be used to better effect (well the ones that are worth redeploying from the junkyard). At the moment they seem to be looking the other way whilst the shambles just gets worse. Mind you the local management are good at parroting every instruction from Head Office, patting themselves on the back and saying how wonderful everything is, whilst ignoring all criticism (after all that's Norwich's job!)

 

[overthewater]

I think we have to admit defeat here, and say First are not publishing the new fleet order this year. It still leaves the question is any of the places not mentioned will get new stock. Glasgow could do with some stuff.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think we have to admit defeat here, and say First are not publishing the new fleet order this year. It still leaves the question is any of the places not mentioned will get new stock. Glasgow could do with some stuff.

Perhaps because the order is so embarrassingly small, with deliveries pushed so far back to the end of the year that they are more like early deliveries from next years order?

Another way of legally massaging the books, like extending asset life to reduce depreciation charges. Looks good on the surface, easily discovered.

 

[Volvodart]

They have announced two years' orders at once before, perhaps they will do that.

 

[KendalKing]

Perhaps because the order is so embarrassingly small, with deliveries pushed so far back to the end of the year

Correct. The number of 17-reg buses is believed to be in single digit, and 67-reg in double digits. So far nothing as been mention regarding the Scottish operations.

So so far...
20 E400s Kernow
5 Scania E400s Bristol Metrobus
14 Scania E400s Bristol A1
3 E200s Weston A3

Then theres new vehicles for York Park and Ride

New buses for York
6 x Mercedes-Benz Citaro G Bendibuses
18 x Double Decks (Type not known)
3 x Optare MetroDecker EV
8 x Single Decks (Type not known)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Correct. The number of 17-reg buses is believed to be in single digit, and 67-reg in double digits. So far nothing as been mention regarding the Scottish operations.

Believed by whom - what's the source?

 

[DragonEast]

I just wonder if First are moving towards allocating new buses for specific routes rather than as a general use allocation to their OpCos as a sort of postcode lottery. Certainly I've always found it strange and perhaps of little benefit when a "new" bus turns up as an occasional treat amongst the older stock on the odd route.

In the East they are running 17 reg buses on the Chelmsford P&R and the new uni/Beaulieu Park 57 route (I believe), and Eastern Counties are testing various buses for replacement stock on their cross-county flagship X1 route. Whether either fall or will fall in this years "order" though, I have no idea.

 

[overthewater]

I just wonder if First are moving towards allocating new buses for specific routes rather than as a general use allocation to their OpCos as a sort of postcode lottery. Certainly I've always found it strange and perhaps of little benefit when a "new" bus turns up as an occasional treat amongst the older stock on the odd route.

In the East they are running 17 reg buses on the Chelmsford P&R and the new uni/Beaulieu Park 57 route (I believe), and Eastern Counties are testing various buses for replacement stock on their cross-county flagship X1 route. Whether either fall or will fall in this years "order" though, I have no idea.

isn't that how its always been done? All the First scottish operations have always brought new buses for certain routes.

 

[THarris123]

Correct. The number of 17-reg buses is believed to be in single digit, and 67-reg in double digits. So far nothing as been mention regarding the Scottish operations.



New buses for York
6 x Mercedes-Benz Citaro G Bendibuses
18 x Double Decks (Type not known)
3 x Optare MetroDecker EV
8 x Single Decks (Type not known)

Wonder where the current Citaro Bendies will go?

 

[DragonEast]

Wonder where the current Citaro Bendies will go?

There was talk of Norwich trialling a few a couple of years ago. But I doubt they'd cope with the traffic and funny East Anglian road network.

 

[winston270twm]

FirstGroup investors rebel over former Carillion boss:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/07/18/carillion-wins-two-government-contracts/

 

[Andyh82]

Wonder where the current Citaro Bendies will go?

I hope they are leased so First don't have to try and shoe horn them onto another route and put up with them for a few years until the accounts allow them to be withdrawn.

Surely these 6 new ones must be the first British bendies for years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There was talk of Norwich trialling a few a couple of years ago. But I doubt they'd cope with the traffic and funny East Anglian road network.

Surely the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre has made sure that any quirks were taken in hand....

 

[winston270twm]

I hope they are leased so First don't have to try and shoe horn them onto another route and put up with them for a few years until the accounts allow them to be withdrawn.

Surely these 6 new ones must be the first British bendies for years.

Bristol Airport & Omniserv at Gatwick Airport have taken delivery of (2) & (7) Euro 6 models respectively which are already in use:

http://www.route-one.net/articles/deliveries/UK_debut_for_Euro_6_artics

 

[KendalKing]

In the East they are running 17 reg buses on the Chelmsford P&R.

The buses on the Chelmsford P&R are 66 reg'd. for the record they are 67189-67197 (SN66WKK/L/M/N/O/P/R/S/T/U).

 

[KendalKing]

Bristol Airport & Omniserv at Gatwick Airport have taken delivery of (2) & (7) Euro 6 models respectively which are already in use:

http://www.route-one.net/articles/deliveries/UK_debut_for_Euro_6_artics

You beat me to it.

 

[KendalKing]

Wonder where the current Citaro Bendies will go?

Not heard anything, other then the PVR is increasing at York.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think we have to admit defeat here, and say First are not publishing the new fleet order this year. It still leaves the question is any of the places not mentioned will get new stock. Glasgow could do with some stuff.

I'm told that any formal announcement of any new bus orders is unlikely this year. Presumably, this is down to the small numbers involved.

 

[Volvodart]

I'm told that any formal announcement of any new bus orders is unlikely this year. Presumably, this is down to the small numbers involved.

They never got all the buses they ordered from ADL in last year's order, so some at least of the buses coming in this financial year will presumably come from that.

 

[Robertj21a]

They never got all the buses they ordered from ADL in last year's order, so some at least of the buses coming in this financial year will presumably come from that.

There certainly appears to be a bit of 'juggling' with the orders vs the years in which they want them showing in the Accounts. Perhaps some of any 2018 order will arrive 'early'.

 

[smtglasgow]

In the absence of any new stock it looks like First Glasgow are going down the route of cutting PVR to get rid of the oldest vehicles. They’ve registered a lot of changes from the middle of next month and most of the timetables are already on Traveline. 12 minute frequencies on the 10/57/57a go down to 15 minute all year round, the 15 is swallowed up by the 8, the M4 goes, Carluke drops off the network and the Hamilton locals get cut back. I’m guessing there’s more if you dig into it.

First have a strange attitude to fleet replacement in Glasgow – either feast or famine. I remember 2004 when they had to order 200 buses, but even the influx of Enviro’s in 2012/13 is getting on for 5 years ago. You’d think it would make sense to bring in a new fleet for the One (surely one First’s best earners) and cascade the existing fleet (which has been hammered up and down the Expressway for 5 years) onto busy routes like the 9?

Starving one of the most profitable parts of the bus business of investment doesn’t seem like a well-thought out long-term strategy, and if I was a shareholder I’d be asking serious questions about whether there really is a coherent plan to turn the business round. If a bus business serving some of Britains biggest cities can’t afford to invest in new stock to improve the offer to customers, it’s probably time to give up.

 

[Volvodart]

Some of the businesses like Aberdeen and, presumably, Glasgow are having to make PVR cuts. All of the businesses had to contribute to these "efficiencies" somehow, but it is not clear what those that did not have to make PVR cuts are doing.

 

[Robertj21a]

In the absence of any new stock it looks like First Glasgow are going down the route of cutting PVR to get rid of the oldest vehicles. They’ve registered a lot of changes from the middle of next month and most of the timetables are already on Traveline. 12 minute frequencies on the 10/57/57a go down to 15 minute all year round, the 15 is swallowed up by the 8, the M4 goes, Carluke drops off the network and the Hamilton locals get cut back. I’m guessing there’s more if you dig into it.

First have a strange attitude to fleet replacement in Glasgow – either feast or famine. I remember 2004 when they had to order 200 buses, but even the influx of Enviro’s in 2012/13 is getting on for 5 years ago. You’d think it would make sense to bring in a new fleet for the One (surely one First’s best earners) and cascade the existing fleet (which has been hammered up and down the Expressway for 5 years) onto busy routes like the 9?

Starving one of the most profitable parts of the bus business of investment doesn’t seem like a well-thought out long-term strategy, and if I was a shareholder I’d be asking serious questions about whether there really is a coherent plan to turn the business round. If a bus business serving some of Britains biggest cities can’t afford to invest in new stock to improve the offer to customers, it’s probably time to give up.

It could be argued that First has never really had any money to pay for new buses all the time that their overall debts are so high. The fact that they did buy new buses was, partly, related to the fact that they had a legal requirement to meet their PSVAR obligations. This year they don't........