First Group: General Discussion

[ARN556B]

This is very true where I live, about 14-months ago Stagecoach cut my local service by 70%. The first bus in the morning is now at 9.40 (previously 7.05) which is no good for commuters. Most people now use the train as it is both cheaper and faster then the bus.

The bus takes 40-mins, and cost £4.90 return, whereas the train takes 10-mins, and cost only £2.05 return, also car ownership as doubled since the cuts to my local bus service was made.

Weren't these cuts by Lancashire County Council?

 

[DragonEast]

Sorry, I know all the excuses but I still think it comes down to drivers' attitudes. With all the hardships and expense, if you're lucky enough to get a driver who is cheerful, helpful, friendly and a good driver and with a bus that's cared for, it makes the journey, even your day, and is something you'll repeat. And it's better publicity than all the PR in the world. Get, as too often, a miserable sob and a bus that isn't cared for, and you think "they can't be bothered, why should I?", and it's an experience you don't want to repeat. I know they need to have the virtues of a saint, but a few drivers, seemingly all under the age of 26, manage it; brilliantly. They enjoy the job, and it shows; and the passengers enjoy the journey.

Sadly all the customer service training in the world makes no difference to someone who doesn't want to learn. And, I suppose, how many of the rest of us too really know how to deal with anyone who isn't friends or family? It's the social problem of modern Britain, everywhere. Blame the car, the housing market, the TV, smartphones, the education system or whatever; it's inside our heads. It's easy to change timetables and routes to meet customers needs, and I think, around here, they often make a darned good job of it too. Modern technology helps. But as everywhere else the problem it doesn't solve is the human one, just caring.

 

[Robertj21a]

Sorry, I know all the excuses but I still think it comes down to drivers' attitudes. With all the hardships and expense, if you're lucky enough to get a driver who is cheerful, helpful, friendly and a good driver and with a bus that's cared for, it makes the journey, even your day, and is something you'll repeat. And it's better publicity than all the PR in the world. Get, as too often, a miserable sob and a bus that isn't cared for, and you think "they can't be bothered, why should I?", and it's an experience you don't want to repeat. I know they need to have the virtues of a saint, but a few drivers, seemingly all under the age of 26, manage it; brilliantly. They enjoy the job, and it shows; and the passengers enjoy the journey.

Sadly all the customer service training in the world makes no difference to someone who doesn't want to learn. And, I suppose, how many of the rest of us too really know how to deal with anyone who isn't friends or family? It's the social problem of modern Britain, everywhere. Blame the car, the housing market, the TV, smartphones, the education system or whatever; it's inside our heads. It's easy to change timetables and routes to meet customers needs, and I think, around here, they often make a darned good job of it too. Modern technology helps. But as everywhere else the problem it doesn't solve is the human one, just caring.

Trent, Kinchbus etc have tried very hard to recruit pleasant and helpful customer-facing staff. It seems to have worked.

 

[KendalKing]

I think there should be better interworking between the buses and railways and there should be decent simple links from rail stations

I totally agree, as this is something, which I am very passionate on. I am in favour of shuttle type services running between Bus & Railway stations.

 

[overthewater]

I totally agree, as this is something, which I am very passionate on. I am in favour of shuttle type services running between Bus & Railway stations.

There tried that once in Falkirk, it failed big time because most people want to go from the Train station to either their home or work. I think that why Stagecoach little and often idea might be better interwork everything.

 

[KendalKing]

Since OMO buses have hardly improved efficiency at all, or rather any efficiency gains have been more than wiped out. In modern jargon, it's not sustainable.

OMO buses are fine on rural routes, where they are picking-up one or two passengers every mile or so, but for town & city services, where buses are picking-up five or more passengers every 300-yards, OMO buses causes traffic congestion, especially where the local authorities have carried-out so called road improvements (ie Road Humps, Road Narrowing, etc).

 

[KendalKing]

I think that why Stagecoach little and often idea might be better interwork everything.

This idea is going back to the mid-1980's, were most big operators were trying to out-do other smaller operators on the same routes.

 

[Robertj21a]

OMO buses are fine on rural routes, where they are picking-up one or two passengers every mile or so, but for town & city services, where buses are picking-up five or more passengers every 300-yards, OMO buses causes traffic congestion, especially where the local authorities have carried-out so called road improvements (ie Road Humps, Road Narrowing, etc).

It's the OMO/OPO that is the problem, not the buses. Urban fare collection should be by smart card, smart phone, multi-trip tickets, off-bus (shops etc) - we're really so far behind other countries and only now making progress.

 

[mbonwick]

Weren't these cuts by Lancashire County Council?

Yup, but don't let facts get in the way of a good "bash the nasty privatised company" rant!

 

[ARN556B]

Yup, but don't let facts get in the way of a good "bash the nasty privatised company" rant!

I thought that might be the case. It does seems to be a case of give a dog a bad name, ignoring improved services like the 755 Morecambe - Kendal and running LCC Evening and Sunday Services 3A and 6 on a commercial basis.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Any news on the order yet?

 

[Robertj21a]

Any news on the order yet?

Won't be long........Before Christmas :roll:

 

[overthewater]

Won't be long........Before Christmas :roll:

Only if were all been good, Santa wont give use the list if we're been naughty

 

[KendalKing]

Weren't these cuts by Lancashire County Council?

Not all of them, about half the journies were commercially operated

 

[overthewater]

Not all of them, about half the journies were commercially operated

I bet there were cross subsidy, and stagecoach knew it had no chance keep the existing service up.

 

[DragonEast]

It's the OMO/OPO that is the problem, not the buses. Urban fare collection should be by smart card, smart phone, multi-trip tickets, off-bus (shops etc) - we're really so far behind other countries and only now making progress.

IMV the one that's worth it is a contactless card payment option. I assume it's not dependent on unreliable internet. But let the passenger have the choice.

Surely the bus operators should have learnt by now that you get nowhere by confusing the passengers. That's the trouble with most of the clever suggestions on here. Someone will always be inconvenienced, so give them the option. TfL can get away with it because they control everything and, at least so far, have the wherewithal to pay for it. Elsewhere no-one has the money and the inclination. And above all else Brits don't like being told what to do. Our awkwardness is what makes us different.

I feel sorry for the bus drivers, as well as the passengers. It's enough trouble dealing with the traffic, adding more and more rules and regulations and passengers standing on ceremony for their rights (whether justified or not) and I think we can make a difficult job into a near impossible one. Keep things simple. They have to make instant decisions, not undertake a lengthy negotiation or explanation. The sad fact is we won't take no for an answer, even when there is a good reason. Yes, as I've said, they should be polite and respectful, but the other side of the coin is they need a job they actually have a chance of doing. Similarly we can't escape the inevitable that the companies have to operate a viable network. In my experience they are doing a good job of it in most cases planning for the future as well as trying to look after their their present customers; sure a few areas suffer (and are often right to complain) but I suspect for the majority of us things are better.The bus industry is no worse, and I suspect much better than, most commercial businesses in that regard. The problem is whether the councils are properly playing their part. It's not just throwing more money around but spending it effectively too. And that, in everything, is where they are weakest. So many of their experienced staff have left, or just given up.

 

[ARN556B]

Not all of them, about half the journies were commercially operated

I didn't know that. Which commercial services were withdrawn?

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Been told an ex Manchester Eclipse is returning to the area 66850

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I totally agree, as this is something, which I am very passionate on. I am in favour of shuttle type services running between Bus & Railway stations.

All very laudable but we've not the funds to support our existing bus services. Of course, we should look to integrate wherever we can. For instance...

Axminster is a small Devon town with a number of bus services that work through the town centre but then terminate a minute or two later at the station which is on a line that is a relatively major link through the area. Makes sense - in Powys, Welshpool is a similar town with a station on a similar type rail line but few services serve it even though a) they're largely tendered and b) it could easily be accommodated.

However, I never buy into the "the answer is to serve the station - now what's the question?" After all, many stations are in peripheral locations. For instance....

Try to route all services in Bristol via Temple Meads? Well a number do already but the idea of extending countless services across the city centre would be mental.

Another challenge is competing locations. For example, Haverfordwest has its station on the Eastern edge of town. However, the major hospital and retail park are on the Withybush Road to the north - destinations that will always popular than the station.

Integrate where you can. Make it easy. Don't let the tail wag the dog.

However, this is a serious tangent so I'll shut up now!!!!

 

[overthewater]

Here are those proposed service changes. I dare say for the 13 August? ( week the schools go back I think for Aberdeen)

https://www.firstgroup.com/aberdeen/more/first-aberdeen-announces-proposed-service-changes

* Revised services 1/1A/2 to improve journey times, with changes to university services.
* Revised timetables for services 3 and 19, with minor changes to services 17, 25 and 117.
* Revised timetable and route for services 8 and 9, extending from Aberdeen Royal Infirmary to Heathryfold.
* Revised timetable and minor route change in Northfield for service 12.
* Service 20 extended to Balnagask to replace service 5, retaining all links at the current frequency.
* Service 5 to be withdrawn, with the majority of links to be retained through changes to services 8/9 and 20.
* Revised route and timetable for service 16, to improve journey times to and from Aberdeen Airport and Dyce (Craibstone) Park & Ride.
* Revised timetable and minor route change to service 18, to improve journey time and coverage in Cove and Charleston.

Customers invited to give feedback on proposals by Monday 3 July 2017.

Local bus operator, First Aberdeen, has announced a number of proposed service changes.

The changes include improvements in journey times for many services, as well as changes to a number of routes to match service levels with demand.

Services 1/1A/2

Revised timetable to improve journey times across the route.

Revised timetable for university term services, with certain journeys not operating February-May. During this period, there will still be 12 buses per hour at peak period towards Robert Gordons University.

Service 3/3G

Revised timetable to improve journey times across the route. On Saturdays, the service will be revised to operate every 12 minutes.

Service 5

This service will be withdrawn.
Customers travelling between Balnagask and Aberdeen City Centre will be able to travel on extended service 20, which will offer the same frequency and links as service 5.
Customers travelling between Aberdeen City Centre and Northfield will be able to travel on extended services 8 and 9 between Aberdeen Royal Infirmary and Heathryfold and on other First Aberdeen services.

Service 8/9

Revised timetable to improve journey times across the route.

Route of services 8 and 9 extended from Aberdeen Royal Infirmary via Foresterhill Road, North Anderson Drive, Provost Rust Drive, Granitehill Road, Quarry Road, Byron Square, Brebner Terrace and Springhill Road.

In the evenings and on Sundays, the service will operate from Heathryfold to Bridge Street or Guild Street only. There is no change to the service frequency.

Service 12

The route will be revised to operate from Heathryfold to North Anderson Drive direct via Provost Rust Drive in both directions (with the Granitehill Rd/Quarry Rd section covered by extended service 8/9). The timetable will be revised but there are no changes to the service frequency.

Service 16

The route will be revised to operate from Powis Terrace via Causewayend, West North Street, King Street, Union Street, Market Street to Guild Street. Returning towards the airport, the service will operate from Guild Street via Bridge Street, Union Street, King Street, West North Street, Causewayend and as the current route from this point. There will be no change to the core service frequency, but timetable changes have been implemented to improve journey times. An additional evening journey from Aberdeen Airport to Aberdeen city centre has been added.

Service 17

Revised timetable to improve journey times with no change to core service frequency.

Service 18

Revised timetable to improve journey times with no change to core service frequency. The route of journeys to/from Altens Industrial Estate will be revised to include the new SUEZ/Aberdeen City Council recycling facility on Hareness Place. The route in Cove will be revised to operate in two directions via Langdykes Road, Loirston Road, Loirston Avenue, Earn’s Heugh Road, Cove Road, Charleston Rd, Charleston Rd North and Wellington Road, returning via the reverse of this route.

Service 19

Revised timetable on all days of operation. The Monday-Saturday frequency will be revised to operate every 15 minutes.

Service 20

Route and timetable revised to include onward service to Balnagask (replacing service 5). From Mounthooly Way, the service will operate via West North Street, King Street, Union Street, Bridge St, Wapping St, Carmelite St, Guild St, Market St, Victoria Rd, Menzies Rd, Craig Pl, Wellington Rd, Girdleness Rd and Balnagask Rd to Balnagask Circle. Return journeys will operate from Balnagask via Balnagask Circle, Girdleness Rd, Wellington Rd, Craig Pl, Menzies Rd, Victoria Rd, Market St, Guild St, Bridge St, Union St, King St, West North St and as per the current route from this point. There is no change to the core frequency.

Service 25

Minor changes to timetable.

Service 117

Minor changes to timetable.

 

[Volvodart]

20 August 2017.

 

[smtglasgow]

The Aberdeen economy has really suffered over the last few years – quite a reversal from the oil boom – so some trimming by First (and, I’d expect Stagecoach) is inevitable. But the Aberdeen fleet size must have dropped considerably since GRT days.

Staying with First’s Scottish ops, I’ve noticed that my local routes in Glasgow (240, 255) have been getting a lot of attention over the last week or so from an army of clipboard-wielding inspectors. Not working in the industry, is there a reason why, when ticket machines can presumably provide highly sophisticated data, you still need a man with a clipboard (and they were all men!) to board a vehicle to do a headcount? It’s been years (literally, the last significant changes were in 2012) since anything happened with these routes, but the 240 in particular seems to collapse on a regular basis these days due to congestion out in Lanarkshire. Saw 5 running together citybound through Parkhead on Friday afternoon, but 30 minute gaps (on a 10 min frequency) are fairly common. Perhaps reducing the poorly used section beyond Motherwell to focus resources on the lucrative Glasgow end?

 

[DragonEast]

Just asking: does anyone have any experience of all this tweaking timetables that actually improves anything for the passengers? I know it helps the companies and nothing wrong with that, as far as it goes...

At least First Aberdeen a give their public an opportunity to comment, for a few days at least! Do any other First OpCo do that? (I know a few Stagecoach areas do, and sometimes listen and take note too!).

 

[overthewater]

The Aberdeen economy has really suffered over the last few years – quite a reversal from the oil boom – so some trimming by First (and, I’d expect Stagecoach) is inevitable. But the Aberdeen fleet size must have dropped considerably since GRT days.

One thing is for sure its helping get rid of older scrap stock Aberdeen is still bad for conjunction yet the bus passenger numbers are down which is confusing.

Staying with First’s Scottish ops, I’ve noticed that my local routes in Glasgow (240, 255) have been getting a lot of attention over the last week or so from an army of clipboard-wielding inspectors. Not working in the industry, is there a reason why, when ticket machines can presumably provide highly sophisticated data, you still need a man with a clipboard (and they were all men!) to board a vehicle to do a headcount? It’s been years (literally, the last significant changes were in 2012) since anything happened with these routes, but the 240 in particular seems to collapse on a regular basis these days due to congestion out in Lanarkshire. Saw 5 running together citybound through Parkhead on Friday afternoon, but 30 minute gaps (on a 10 min frequency) are fairly common. Perhaps reducing the poorly used section beyond Motherwell to focus resources on the lucrative Glasgow end?/QUOTE]

Ticket machines only give some of the information, it doesn't tell you why the bus is late etc Better still it does NOT tell you where "day/week/monthly" pass holders get off. By sending in team of people to look at the whole route its can get alot more details. Mind you the 240 is very long route, and its Bellshill that seems to cause the hold ups. I do think there might need to split the route in two at Motherwell, or better still have an express from Bellshill via M8 to Glasgow.

Just asking: does anyone have any experience of all this tweaking timetables that actually improves anything for the passengers? I know it helps the companies and nothing wrong with that, as far as it goes...

At least First Aberdeen a give their public an opportunity to comment, for a few days at least! Do any other First OpCo do that? (I know a few Stagecoach areas do, and sometimes listen and take note too!).

First Glasgow did a consultation for its Simpcity network, while further changes have come from feedback. Midland Bluebird also have some sort of consultation etc, and just of late spoke with the public about those West Lothian night buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

One thing is for sure its helping get rid of older scrap stock Aberdeen is still bad for conjunction yet the bus passenger numbers are down which is confusing.

What is conjunction?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just asking: does anyone have any experience of all this tweaking timetables that actually improves anything for the passengers? I know it helps the companies and nothing wrong with that, as far as it goes...

The issue affecting many firms is congestion and the question of if you have a 12 min frequency.

Do you put in another vehicle (annual cost >£120k p.a.) to maintain the frequency or do you keep the resources the same and widen the headway to 15 mins?

 

[overthewater]

What is conjunction?

Blast... Congestion it should say

The issue affecting many firms is congestion and the question of if you have a 12 min frequency.

Do you put in another vehicle (annual cost >£120k p.a.) to maintain the frequency or do you keep the resources the same and widen the headway to 15 mins?

Or C, complain to the local council and demand more bus lanes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Blast... Congestion it should say



Or C, complain to the local council and demand more bus lanes.

May I refer you to the Mayor of Liverpool...... No votes in more bus lanes

 

[DragonEast]

The issue affecting many firms is congestion and the question of if you have a 12 min frequency.

Do you put in another vehicle (annual cost >£120k p.a.) to maintain the frequency or do you keep the resources the same and widen the headway to 15 mins?

I'm not sure it's simply a mathematical equation. A greater frequency doesn't always equal more reliability (nor is it a simple relationship to headway); I suspect, from local experience (First), it can leave your depots struggling to find the resources (which, too, is not just a numbers game - it's how the operation is managed too), and also actually increase the congestion as more buses stop and start on an overloaded local highway network.

The result is that trying to cope with the congestion actually puts prospective passengers off even more, and regulating the buses also seems to make it worse as some passengers are left waiting longer whilst they recover the timetable elsewhere. For very local journeys the passengers will find it quicker to walk (good); or they'll just use the car (bad).

No wonder passenger numbers and gross income remain stubbornly stuck with fare increases the only hope for the passengers with no alternative; and margins decline if they budge at all. (And grabbing tendered routes like kids in the sweetshop. Not sure what that does for the resources, though!)

In my shire county village, served by interurban services, we've had a doubling in frequency from 2 to 4 daytime buses an hour, but waiting times throughout the day have remained in the 30-50 minute range, or longer. Friends tell me it's the same in town where timetabled frequencies have increased from 3-5 or even 6 buses an hour. School holidays help (with a corresponding increased timetabled headway) but that's just about all. It looks a mess. The sparsely served evenings are now suffering too, with cancelled services.

 

[Volvodart]

Route one has some news on the First 2017 new buses order:-

http://www.route-one.net/articles/Bus_routes/First_to_run_debut_MetroBus_route

First to run debut MetroBus route
The West of England Partnership has appointed First to operate the debut premium MetroBus route, from Ashton Vale to Temple Meads, when the works are complete. The £200m project will open in stages, with five routes.

Covering five buses it takes over the 903 Park & Ride route, but uses a new guided busway section.

First has ordered long-wheelbase Scania Euro 6 ‘deckers with ADL Enviro400 MMC bodies, several inches lower than normal to accommodate the overhead girders on a former railway bridge.