First Group: General Discussion

[Andyh82]

can't imagine this will do much good for the staff, if I'm honest. First already seem in a state of retrenchment in West Yorkshire, having abandoned a lot of marginal and tendered services to Yorkshire Tiger and other small independents. I'm not sure that now is the best time to be picking fights about pay and conditions. But equally I wonder what has gone wrong with the industrial relations there, it seems that the staff there are very worried about the future.

Yorkshire Tiger have now pulled mostly out of Leeds meaning the marginal routes have in some cases ended up back with First. Ironically they took over on Saturday, meaning the second day of service on Monday was effected by the strike. Had the strike been the previous week Tiger would still have been running.

Wider across West Yorkshire they've started picking up tenders in non traditional areas, mostly trips on services otherwise run commercially by Arriva.

 

[Robertj21a]

It is a valid question and yes, you wonder what has gone on here? Especially as the two parties (Unite and First) went to ACAS, agreed a deal that was then taken to the workforce with a recommendation to accept and who have then decided to ignore the recommendation and have elected to strike.

However, perhaps a few other things to reflect upon:

• The other operations were working normally
• The Bradford dispute was reconciled
• The relinquishing of marginal work/tendered work is perhaps not surprising when they have a higher cost base (in terms of staff costs) - something that will only be exacerbated by a pay rise of nearly 4% but.....
• ....they have just been awarded a contract to run services 59, 60A, 61 and X63 which were provided by Yorkshire Tiger

Hopefully, common sense will prevail.

Sounds like First drivers are going on strike in Weymouth - anyone know any more ?

 

[THarris123]

Thought as I had a bit of spare time I'd go through the First fleet list.

Figures for each area of vehicles in service Y reg and older:-
Deckers:
Aberdeen 8
West of England 33
Cymru 4
South West 73
Edinburgh 43
East England 15
Glasgow 24
Hampshire 29
Manchester 17
Midlands 5 (Adderley)
South Yorkshire 3
West Yorkshire 81

Singles:
Aberdeen 19
Cymru 7
South West 12
Edinburgh 9
East England 4
Glasgow 12
Hampshire 3
Manchester 56
South Yorkshire 11
West Yorkshire 37

Coach:
Aberdeen 1
South West 4
Midlands 2

Bendies:
West of England 3
Manchester 1

Comes to 516 - 335 deckers, 170 singles, 7 coaches and 4 bendies

This doesn't by any means mean that all these vehicles are non-DDA compliant, but simply shows the age of the fleet
Figures for Manchester and Edinburgh are unlikely to be very reliable at all - last updated February/March time. The rest should be valid up to May.

 

[cactustwirly]

Sounds like First drivers are going on strike in Weymouth - anyone know any more ?

Have a read: https://www.facebook.com/firstindorset/posts/10153486835026230

 

[dgl]

Sounds like First drivers are going on strike in Weymouth - anyone know any more ?

Yep, citing pay inequality when compared with other first areas locally (specifically stating Yeovil and Bristol)

See:

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/14...of_five_day_bus_strike_involving_110_drivers/

Nothing about the strike on the First Group website as of yet

 

[THarris123]

Yep, citing pay inequality when compared with other first areas locally (specifically stating Yeovil and Bristol)

See:

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/14...of_five_day_bus_strike_involving_110_drivers/

Nothing about the strike on the First Group website as of yet

Can't see it says anything about Bristol - it mentions Bournemouth and Poole.

Just look at the job adverts for this area - Yeovil advertised as £8.62 and Weymouth I think is much lower, with Bridport only advertised as £8.80. Bristol is £11.05 (£10.45 at MH), Bath is about £10.45, Wells, Taunton and Bildgwater are £9.24 and Weston is £9.14. Can't make out why Yeovil and Weymouth shouldn't be paid as much as Wells or Weston really.

 

[Robertj21a]

Thought as I had a bit of spare time I'd go through the First fleet list.

Figures for each area of vehicles in service Y reg and older:-
Deckers:
Aberdeen 8
West of England 33
Cymru 4
South West 73
Edinburgh 43
East England 15
Glasgow 24
Hampshire 29
Manchester 17
Midlands 5 (Adderley)
South Yorkshire 3
West Yorkshire 81

Singles:
Aberdeen 19
Cymru 7
South West 12
Edinburgh 9
East England 4
Glasgow 12
Hampshire 3
Manchester 56
South Yorkshire 11
West Yorkshire 37

Coach:
Aberdeen 1
South West 4
Midlands 2

Bendies:
West of England 3
Manchester 1

Comes to 516 - 335 deckers, 170 singles, 7 coaches and 4 bendies

This doesn't by any means mean that all these vehicles are non-DDA compliant, but simply shows the age of the fleet
Figures for Manchester and Edinburgh are unlikely to be very reliable at all - last updated February/March time. The rest should be valid up to May.

As has been mentioned before, any bus that is Y-reg (or newer) is virtually guaranteed to be DDA-compliant (only a few aren't). I'm not sure why you keep including Y-reg in any analysis. A few X-reg, plus any older buses that have been modified since new, are also DDA-compliant.

 

[overthewater]

As has been mentioned before, any bus that is Y-reg (or newer) is virtually guaranteed to be DDA-compliant (only a few aren't). I'm not sure why you keep including Y-reg in any analysis. A few X-reg, plus any older buses that have been modified since new, are also DDA-compliant.

I also dont know what that person has included FSE in this list, since the amount of cuts coming down the line in approw 6 weeks will result in ALL those buses heading for the bin. So that reduces the firgue further.

 

[the101]

Yep, citing pay inequality when compared with other first areas locally (specifically stating Yeovil and Bristol)

See:

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/14...of_five_day_bus_strike_involving_110_drivers/

Nothing about the strike on the First Group website as of yet

I cannot see that ending well for the union, if what First claim on the Facebook link posted is correct. First reckon that only just over half of the drivers voted to strike, and yet the stoppage called is from Monday to Friday, which must potentially be one of the longest bus strikes in the UK for a long time. That means that those drivers who observe it, should it go ahead, who are rota'd to work Monday to Friday stand to get paid nothing for next week.

I would be very surprised if the strike holds firm for five days, should it not be averted in the meantime.

The other thing which should be of concern to the union is that five days' action has the potential to do serious long-term harm to both depots concerned. It does not seem right that drivers there are on so much less than those in other areas (even those in the Potteries, hardly a bastion of high wages, are on over a tenner an hour), but we will see whether it is worth the hard-line approach in time...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I cannot see that ending well for the union, if what First claim on the Facebook link posted is correct. First reckon that only just over half of the drivers voted to strike, and yet the stoppage called is from Monday to Friday, which must potentially be one of the longest bus strikes in the UK for a long time. That means that those drivers who observe it, should it go ahead, who are rota'd to work Monday to Friday stand to get paid nothing for next week.

I would be very surprised if the strike holds firm for five days, should it not be averted in the meantime.

The other thing which should be of concern to the union is that five days' action has the potential to do serious long-term harm to both depots concerned. It does not seem right that drivers there are on so much less than those in other areas (even those in the Potteries, hardly a bastion of high wages, are on over a tenner an hour), but we will see whether it is worth the hard-line approach in time...

Whilst I have sympathy for drivers and their pay and conditions, the concept of different pay at different depots can be counter productive. A lucrative city depot can sustain that whilst those at more rural, more marginal locations may end up pricing themselves out of the market whether that makes marginal routes loss makers or being uncompetitive with tenders.

I do hope they can resolve this as such disputes usually end up with no winners in the long run

 

[Robertj21a]

Whilst I have sympathy for drivers and their pay and conditions, the concept of different pay at different depots can be counter productive. A lucrative city depot can sustain that whilst those at more rural, more marginal locations may end up pricing themselves out of the market whether that makes marginal routes loss makers or being uncompetitive with tenders.

I do hope they can resolve this as such disputes usually end up with no winners in the long run

Indeed. It makes me wonder if the Union has thought this through.

 

[THarris123]

I also dont know what that person has included FSE in this list, since the amount of cuts coming down the line in approw 6 weeks will result in ALL those buses heading for the bin. So that reduces the firgue further.

Well that person doesn't live in Scotland and hasn't got an up to date fleet list. That person also can't look into the future to see exactly what vehicles are heading for the bin. Im sure it will reduce the figure - just like in the west where all 33 deckers will leave, but that won't be until September - should I therefore exclude those from the list too?

Don't know how you can just expect all the old vehicles to be withdrawn in FSE. Some may atay for school work.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As has been mentioned before, any bus that is Y-reg (or newer) is virtually guaranteed to be DDA-compliant (only a few aren't). I'm not sure why you keep including Y-reg in any analysis. A few X-reg, plus any older buses that have been modified since new, are also DDA-compliant.

As I mentioned - the figures I have don't reflect DDA. I include Y reg solely because it is easier to work out. I have other figures which include all the 51, 02 and 52 plate vehicles. I'm just trying to show what the levels are of old stock we have at each depot/in each area.

If you include 51, 02 and 52 reg vehicles, that total is about 1250, so basically First should have withdrawn all of the current oldest stock by about 2020.

 

[overthewater]

Yes I would not included those 33 Deckers from the west since there are heading for the Bin, shortly.

The reason i can expect all the old vehicles to be withdrawn in FSE is the fact the number of buses that you have listed is lower than the number of buses being taken off the road.

Also Falkirk School tenders which First own a very high share of seems to be getting a good amount of interest which will see a high amount of compertition for work. Again Im not expect First to retain everything.

 

[THarris123]

Yes I would not included those 33 Deckers from the west since there are heading for the Bin, shortly.

The reason i can expect all the old vehicles to be withdrawn in FSE is the fact the number of buses that you have listed is lower than the number of buses being taken off the road.

Also Falkirk School tenders which First own a very high share of seems to be getting a good amount of interest which will see a high amount of compertition for work. Again Im not expect First to retain everything.

Well my figures are what First currently have in service, not what they will have - the figures would be very different if I predicted what it would be like in September.

Scotland may decide to move out some mid life vehicles and keep some older stuff. You just can't assume that all old vehicles will go (although it is likely) - after all this is First bus we're talking about, who change their mind rather regularly.

 

[overthewater]

Again there is age limits on the school contracts.

 

[baza585]

Well my figures are what First currently have in service, not what they will have - the figures would be very different if I predicted what it would be like in September.

Scotland may decide to move out some mid life vehicles and keep some older stuff. You just can't assume that all old vehicles will go (although it is likely) - after all this is First bus we're talking about, who change their mind rather regularly.

Sorry but I do not believe that First has 170 Y reg or older single deckers still in service; your "fleetlist" is possibly some way out of date I suspect, unless you have included trainers. As has been said most/all of the Y regs are PSVAR compliant anyway, as are many of the older ex London deckers that no doubt feature in your list.

I suspect First will have no problem meeting this year's decker PSVAR deadline, but some others will find it more of a struggle. Indeed because First tended to buy many more heavyweight buses in that era than (say) Stagecoach or Arriva, making the comparison just on age is inappropriate anyway. A Y reg. Dart is knackered where as a Y reg. B10BLE isn't.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sorry but I do not believe that First has 170 Y reg or older single deckers still in service; your "fleetlist" is possibly some way out of date I suspect, unless you have included trainers. As has been said most/all of the Y regs are PSVAR compliant anyway, as are many of the older ex London deckers that no doubt feature in your list.

I suspect First will have no problem meeting this year's decker PSVAR deadline, but some others will find it more of a struggle. Indeed because First tended to buy many more heavyweight buses in that era than (say) Stagecoach or Arriva, making the comparison just on age is inappropriate anyway. A Y reg. Dart is knackered where as a Y reg. B10BLE isn't.

To be fair, the 170 figure may be about right although in some areas like South Yorkshire, the new vehicles received and the fleet changes have yet to be fully realised. Same in West Yorkshire.

However, I just don't know what the point is that's being made?

 

[THarris123]

Sorry but I do not believe that First has 170 Y reg or older single deckers still in service; your "fleetlist" is possibly some way out of date I suspect, unless you have included trainers. As has been said most/all of the Y regs are PSVAR compliant anyway, as are many of the older ex London deckers that no doubt feature in your list.

I suspect First will have no problem meeting this year's decker PSVAR deadline, but some others will find it more of a struggle. Indeed because First tended to buy many more heavyweight buses in that era than (say) Stagecoach or Arriva, making the comparison just on age is inappropriate anyway. A Y reg. Dart is knackered where as a Y reg. B10BLE isn't.

Once again - I fully appreciate that Y reg vehicles are DDA compliant, as are a lot of older stock too.

The point I am trying to make is to show what the number of vehicles First have under each area which are now 16 years or older. It also acts as a comparison to previous figures which I have stated on this thread in the past - all of which have been based on Y reg or older. This does not mean that it shows the full list of what is DDA compliant and what isn't. It shows a comparison to previous figures in previous years/months and shows where the current oldest fleet is held in the country within First.

These figures also include anything which is used on closed or school contracts, but not trainers.

The 170 figure:-
Aberdeen - 5 X reg B10s and 14 Y reg B10s
Ashton - 6 X reg Marshalls and 1 Y reg solo
Bradford - 4 W reg B10s, 2 Y reg B7ls and 2 Y reg solos
Bridgend - 3 X reg Marshalls
Bolton - 1 x reg B10, 4 Y reg B10s
Bury - 34 W reg Citaros
Blantyre - 1 x reg Marshall
Camborne - 56000, 42801/2
Doncaster - 8 Y reg B10s and 1 Y reg B7L
Galashiels - 6 X reg Marshalls and 1 Y reg solo
Huddersfield - 1 W reg B10
Hadleigh - 3 X reg Marshalls
Hoeford - 1 T reg Dart
Hunslet Park - 2 T reg, 4 V reg, 1 Y reg Scanias
Halifax - 9 W reg B10s, 1 Y reg solo
Bramley - 2 T reg, 4 V reg, 1 X reg, 1 Y reg Scanias, 2 Y reg B7Ls
Lowestoft - 1 R reg B10
Larbert - 2 Y reg solos
Olive Grove - 1 R reg B10, 1 Y reg B7L
Oldham - 7 W reg Citaros, 3 Y reg solos
Overtown - 1 X reg Marshall, 8 Y reg B10s
Port Talbot - 3 W reg Marshalls, 1 X reg Marshall
Scotstoun - 2 X reg Marshalls
Southampton - 2 N reg Step Darts
Taunton - 3 X reg Darts, 3 X reg B10s, 3 Y reg B10s
York - 1 Y reg B7L

As I've previously said, these figures are up to date as of May. Manchester and FSE are up to date as of February/March. If anyone wants to correct me on anything, please feel free.

The reason why I posted this is I thought it might be interesting to fellow enthusiasts, but obviously that is proving not to be the case.

 

[cactustwirly]

Once again - I fully appreciate that Y reg vehicles are DDA compliant, as are a lot of older stock too.

The point I am trying to make is to show what the number of vehicles First have under each area which are now 16 years or older. It also acts as a comparison to previous figures which I have stated on this thread in the past - all of which have been based on Y reg or older. This does not mean that it shows the full list of what is DDA compliant and what isn't. It shows a comparison to previous figures in previous years/months and shows where the current oldest fleet is held in the country within First.

These figures also include anything which is used on closed or school contracts, but not trainers.

The 170 figure:-
Aberdeen - 5 X reg B10s and 14 Y reg B10s
Ashton - 6 X reg Marshalls and 1 Y reg solo
Bradford - 4 W reg B10s, 2 Y reg B7ls and 2 Y reg solos
Bridgend - 3 X reg Marshalls
Bolton - 1 x reg B10, 4 Y reg B10s
Bury - 34 W reg Citaros
Blantyre - 1 x reg Marshall
Camborne - 56000, 42801/2
Doncaster - 8 Y reg B10s and 1 Y reg B7L
Galashiels - 6 X reg Marshalls and 1 Y reg solo
Huddersfield - 1 W reg B10
Hadleigh - 3 X reg Marshalls
Hoeford - 1 T reg Dart
Hunslet Park - 2 T reg, 4 V reg, 1 Y reg Scanias
Halifax - 9 W reg B10s, 1 Y reg solo
Bramley - 2 T reg, 4 V reg, 1 X reg, 1 Y reg Scanias, 2 Y reg B7Ls
Lowestoft - 1 R reg B10
Larbert - 2 Y reg solos
Olive Grove - 1 R reg B10, 1 Y reg B7L
Oldham - 7 W reg Citaros, 3 Y reg solos
Overtown - 1 X reg Marshall, 8 Y reg B10s
Port Talbot - 3 W reg Marshalls, 1 X reg Marshall
Scotstoun - 2 X reg Marshalls
Southampton - 2 N reg Step Darts
Taunton - 3 X reg Darts, 3 X reg B10s, 3 Y reg B10s
York - 1 Y reg B7L

As I've previously said, these figures are up to date as of May. Manchester and FSE are up to date as of February/March. If anyone wants to correct me on anything, please feel free.

The reason why I posted this is I thought it might be interesting to fellow enthusiasts, but obviously that is proving not to be the case.

You seem to have missed out Slough/Berkshire

 

[dgl]

Weymouth also has a few older deckers, W reg I believe

 

[THarris123]

Weymouth also has a few older deckers, W reg I believe

That's included in my Hampshire figure. Weymouth currently has 16 old deckers according to my figures. Think we'lI see some new stuff for them next year. Some Essex Tridents have headed there and i think maybe we'll see some stuff go down there from Bristol this year.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You seem to have missed out Slough/Berkshire

Didn't think there was any old vehicles left in Slough/Berkshire.

 

[LAIRA]

I think there a few missing at Camborne

21100/26/65
30871-81/98
32027
32709/11-17/751-754
32802/3/8/18/19/46/75/76/78/79/80
34041/49/137/38/162/177/182-185/311
41383

As far as I know all still in service.

 

[THarris123]

I think there a few missing at Camborne

21100/26/65
30871-81/98
32027
32709/11-17/751-754
32802/3/8/18/19/46/75/76/78/79/80
34041/49/137/38/162/177/182-185/311
41383

As far as I know all still in service.

And those are included in the 73 deckers and 4 coaches figure I previously mentioned.

I thought 41383 was withdrawn now or on training duties?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Once again - I fully appreciate that Y reg vehicles are DDA compliant, as are a lot of older stock too.

The point I am trying to make is to show what the number of vehicles First have under each area which are now 16 years or older. It also acts as a comparison to previous figures which I have stated on this thread in the past - all of which have been based on Y reg or older. This does not mean that it shows the full list of what is DDA compliant and what isn't. It shows a comparison to previous figures in previous years/months and shows where the current oldest fleet is held in the country within First.

These figures also include anything which is used on closed or school contracts, but not trainers.

The 170 figure:-
Aberdeen - 5 X reg B10s and 14 Y reg B10s
Ashton - 6 X reg Marshalls and 1 Y reg solo
Bradford - 4 W reg B10s, 2 Y reg B7ls and 2 Y reg solos
Bridgend - 3 X reg Marshalls
Bolton - 1 x reg B10, 4 Y reg B10s
Bury - 34 W reg Citaros
Blantyre - 1 x reg Marshall
Camborne - 56000, 42801/2
Doncaster - 8 Y reg B10s and 1 Y reg B7L
Galashiels - 6 X reg Marshalls and 1 Y reg solo
Huddersfield - 1 W reg B10
Hadleigh - 3 X reg Marshalls
Hoeford - 1 T reg Dart
Hunslet Park - 2 T reg, 4 V reg, 1 Y reg Scanias
Halifax - 9 W reg B10s, 1 Y reg solo
Bramley - 2 T reg, 4 V reg, 1 X reg, 1 Y reg Scanias, 2 Y reg B7Ls
Lowestoft - 1 R reg B10
Larbert - 2 Y reg solos
Olive Grove - 1 R reg B10, 1 Y reg B7L
Oldham - 7 W reg Citaros, 3 Y reg solos
Overtown - 1 X reg Marshall, 8 Y reg B10s
Port Talbot - 3 W reg Marshalls, 1 X reg Marshall
Scotstoun - 2 X reg Marshalls
Southampton - 2 N reg Step Darts
Taunton - 3 X reg Darts, 3 X reg B10s, 3 Y reg B10s
York - 1 Y reg B7L

As I've previously said, these figures are up to date as of May. Manchester and FSE are up to date as of February/March. If anyone wants to correct me on anything, please feel free.

The reason why I posted this is I thought it might be interesting to fellow enthusiasts, but obviously that is proving not to be the case.

To be fair, the actual breakdown is quite interesting. I thought your figures were broadly correct, though as it's a moving feast, they'll always be the odd one on there that shouldn't.

Without being contentious, I guess my question was a bit of a "so what?" It's interesting to see the list but I wasn't seeing what conclusions we are supposed to draw from it. Perhaps that is the point - we can't

 

[Westnat]

41383 is in theory available for service, but does carry large internal notices stating it's only to be used as a staff bus.

 

[Robertj21a]

To be fair, the actual breakdown is quite interesting. I thought your figures were broadly correct, though as it's a moving feast, they'll always be the odd one on there that shouldn't.

Without being contentious, I guess my question was a bit of a "so what?" It's interesting to see the list but I wasn't seeing what conclusions we are supposed to draw from it. Perhaps that is the point - we can't

I think that was my point too. It was as if it should mean/prove something when it can't. I suppose anybody can come up with any list for, say, buses older than 03-re, or 57-reg, but I still wouldn't be able to make any reasonable comment about it. To my mind, at present, the only really significant issue would be the number of double deckers that are not DDA-compliant.

 

[Surreyman]

I think that was my point too. It was as if it should mean/prove something when it can't. I suppose anybody can come up with any list for, say, buses older than 03-re, or 57-reg, but I still wouldn't be able to make any reasonable comment about it. To my mind, at present, the only really significant issue would be the number of double deckers that are not DDA-compliant.

Hmm, the number of current First Buses that are NON - DDA Compliant, this seems to be the question/answer nobody knows?
When the latest orders were announced there was a statement made (presumably from a 'First Spokesperson' that "150 Double Deckers needed to be replaced in order to meet the PSVAR deadline - 31/12/2017").
I know a few W/X reg B7TL/ALX 400s have been upgraded to DDA and most people assume that all the ex London 'Deckers were upgraded when they were converted to Single door, that leaves the remaining Olympians, a handful of East Lancs bodied Tridents and the majority of W & X registered B7TL/ALX 400s, anyone care to confirm or correct me?

 

[Robertj21a]

Hmm, the number of current First Buses that are NON - DDA Compliant, this seems to be the question/answer nobody knows?
When the latest orders were announced there was a statement made (presumably from a 'First Spokesperson' that "150 Double Deckers needed to be replaced in order to meet the PSVAR deadline - 31/12/2017").
I know a few W/X reg B7TL/ALX 400s have been upgraded to DDA and most people assume that all the ex London 'Deckers were upgraded when they were converted to Single door, that leaves the remaining Olympians, a handful of East Lancs bodied Tridents and the majority of W & X registered B7TL/ALX 400s, anyone care to confirm or correct me?

I would suggest that your assumptions are probably broadly correct - though I think the number of B7TL/ALX400s modified was quite a significant volume (not just 'a few')

 

[dgl]

In regards to the Weymouth strike here os the timetable for the strike services:
https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/...stomer Timetables 20 - 24 June at 17 June.pdf

Buses are finishing earlier than usual, around 8:00, some services like the 6 (Wyke/Lanehouse/Sailing Academy), 502 (Littlesea holiday park/Lodmoor), X53/X52/X54 (Jurassic coast) and some of the school buses that semi-mirror normal services will not run. Some other school services mat be run by other operators.
This is the expected timetable but throughout the week more services may run.

 

[Andyh82]

The second day of strike action on First Leeds takes place tomorrow.

A generally hourly daytime service will be provided on most 'every 10 minutes' routes with no service on anything else.

The only First bus seen in Leeds after 7pm will be the hourly 508 from Halifax.