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First Group: General Discussion

overthewater

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So overthewater's speculation for the last few years and finally paid off. Unfortunately it was pretty likely that a couple of those depots were going to close.

Makes me wonder what is left to close down now. The only one I can think of is Yeovil. Obviously Taunton and Bildgwater are loss making, but that should improve.

Have they finally cut back all they can?

It was the worse kept secret, as I said it was odds on fav to go, Its not good but it was needed to save the rest of the company. Alot of us failed to understand fully how the 1997/2002 Undertaking fully affect how first were able to scale back the operations.

I think we have now reach rock bottom, (years late), I doubt First will close down anything else down. Somerset also has a bright future and will also need time to deal with the recent ongoing events.
 
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Robertj21a

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It was the worse kept secret, as I said it was odds on fav to go, Its not good but it was needed to save the rest of the company. Alot of us failed to understand fully how the 1997/2002 Undertaking fully affect how first were able to scale back the operations.

I think we have now reach rock bottom, (years late), I doubt First will close down anything else down. Somerset also has a bright future and will also need time to deal with the recent ongoing events.

Potteries ?
 

Robertj21a

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Oh yeah forgot that one. But there again they are investing this year in 17 new vehicles.

Can't remember the last time Yeovil received new vehicles!

As I say I'd like to think that'll be the last of it for a while now.

I doubt that Potteries can recall their last new buses either - the problem is that new buses can easily be transferred elsewhere if matters don't sufficiently improve. Getting new buses is the easy bit, getting some passengers back is proving to be the hard bit.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Ouch - impact of the rail line a factor on the X95?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I doubt that Potteries can recall their last new buses either - the problem is that new buses can easily be transferred elsewhere if matters don't sufficiently improve. Getting new buses is the easy bit, getting some passengers back is proving to be the hard bit.

The Potteries did get some new Streetlites and some nearly new ones but it's another area where the sins of the past are seemingly still apparent.
 

robertclark125

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The obvious contender for East Lothian is Lothian Buses, as I've mentioned with an exclusive on the thread regarding Musselburgh closing. But, here's a thought; East Lothian is kind of interurban territory, the stuff that interested Stagecoach more than big urban operations in the 1980s. Stagecoach did state, in the recent submission ot the CMA on lifting the controls on Firstgroup, after it lost the Scotrail franchise, that it would look at opportunities as they came up. Is it too much to suggest Stagecoach may want to buy Musselburgh and North Berwick, and have a go themselves?
 

overthewater

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Ouch - impact of the rail line a factor on the X95?

Yes, the X95 is pretty dire nowaday, the buses are clean mind.


The obvious contender for East Lothian is Lothian Buses, as I've mentioned with an exclusive on the thread regarding Musselburgh closing. But, here's a thought; East Lothian is kind of interurban territory, the stuff that interested Stagecoach more than big urban operations in the 1980s. Stagecoach did state, in the recent submission ot the CMA on lifting the controls on Firstgroup, after it lost the Scotrail franchise, that it would look at opportunities as they came up. Is it too much to suggest Stagecoach may want to buy Musselburgh and North Berwick, and have a go themselves?

I can't see Stagecoach wanting to spend money, its trying to keep cut cost already and its other Edinburgh route No40 isn't in the best shape either. I also doubt McGills will waste its time, even thought it did say in the undertaking it would look at it.
 

90019

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Sad, but inevitable. Interesting times ahead particularly with what will replace X6 and 124/X24

All the Lothian buses with LED screens were updated a couple of months ago and have gained a load of destinations for East Lothian, along with plenty of three digit numbers.

It could be nothing, but the timing seems a bit of a coincidence.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The obvious contender for East Lothian is Lothian Buses, as I've mentioned with an exclusive on the thread regarding Musselburgh closing. But, here's a thought; East Lothian is kind of interurban territory, the stuff that interested Stagecoach more than big urban operations in the 1980s. Stagecoach did state, in the recent submission ot the CMA on lifting the controls on Firstgroup, after it lost the Scotrail franchise, that it would look at opportunities as they came up. Is it too much to suggest Stagecoach may want to buy Musselburgh and North Berwick, and have a go themselves?

May be too small and too detached for them? Lothian would seem the more obvious choice but who knows.
 

robertclark125

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I can see your point about it being too detached for them. In fairness, I think Stagecoach UK Bus would need to set up a new management team for the operation, if they did go down that road. I'm like you though, Lothian Buses is the obvious contender.
 

KendalKing

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I doubt that Potteries can recall their last new buses

The last brand new buses were 9 StreetLites in 2014.

The obvious contender for East Lothian is Lothian Buses, as I've mentioned with an exclusive on the thread regarding Musselburgh closing. But, here's a thought; East Lothian is kind of interurban territory, the stuff that interested Stagecoach more than big urban operations in the 1980s. Stagecoach did state, in the recent submission ot the CMA on lifting the controls on Firstgroup, after it lost the Scotrail franchise, that it would look at opportunities as they came up. Is it too much to suggest Stagecoach may want to buy Musselburgh and North Berwick, and have a go themselves?

I can see both Lothian Buses and Stagecoach, taking on the First routes!
 
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Blindtraveler

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Your all forgetting Perrymans with an already loyal customer bass on the Dunbar Haddinton Edinburgh express run. The North Berwick is a good Lothian one and they may think so too given what 90019 says, the 104 is already winning the battle of Tranent so no need to duplicate further
 

THarris123

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Just looked at the fleet list for Yorkshire - didn't realise that the new Streetlites and Streetdecks are mostly all at the depots already. There's also an optare demonstrator for a metrodeck.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Just looked at the fleet list for Yorkshire - didn't realise that the new Streetlites and Streetdecks are mostly all at the depots already. There's also an optare demonstrator for a metrodeck.

The Leeds Streetdecks were in the course of delivery when the order was announced. Likewise, the Streetlites were as well with the launch and commitments of the Doncaster Bus Partnership
 

the101

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State of the nation from First's preliminary results to 31 March 2016:

First Bus reported revenues of £870.9m (2015: £896.1m) for the year, with like-for-like passenger revenue (excluding the contribution from closure and disposal of businesses) increasing by 0.3%.

Revenues in the second half of the year were adversely affected by lower than expected passenger volumes, driven by lower high street retail footfall, exceptionally wet weather, flooding and congestion impairing services in several of our markets. This has been coupled with a reduction in tendered contracts funded by local authorities in a number of our markets, and some evidence of lower fuel prices encouraging more car usage.

We continued to experience weakening concessionary revenues throughout the year, while like-for-like commercial passenger revenues increased by 1.1%. Our markets in the south of the UK continue to see more positive trends than our operations in the north and Scotland.

We have been taking action throughout the year to offset the challenging market backdrop by merging or closing a number of depots and reducing administrative overheads in order to maintain our margin progress. Adjusted operating profit was £52.0m (2015: £51.8m) and adjusted operating margin was 6.0% (2015: 5.8%), after the restructuring costs of £3.8m (2015: £1.4m) incurred in the year. Overall we delivered cost efficiencies of more than £20m in the year.

Our local management teams are continually reviewing networks, timetables and pricing strategies to ensure we are focused on local market needs and growth opportunities. We work closely with all our local authority partners as they respond to their own financial pressures and review their tendered services, looking to find ways to integrate such services into the commercial network wherever possible.

Networks serving universities and hospitals are also important to our local growth plans. During the year we secured rights to serve both York and West of England university campuses and developed a commercial network serving Swansea University’s new site.

We have enhanced our service to Bristol’s Southmead Hospital and the new Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow. In Bristol several changes to key corridors and the night bus network have also contributed to good volume growth. We have also been progressively replacing single deck vehicles with double deckers to increase capacity. However, our ambitions in Bristol and some other cities are increasingly hindered by growing congestion, which frequently sees central Bristol gridlocked.

We continue to bid for tender contracts, securing a five year car park contract at Dublin Airport and beginning operation of the first Park & Ride service in Leeds. We are the preferred bidder for the second. In Manchester we secured the contract for Vantage, a flagship investment in BRT by Transport for Greater Manchester, which started operating in April 2016. We were also the lead contractor for the Rugby World Cup, providing spectator transport to Twickenham and Milton Keynes stadia and VIP and media transport for all venues.

Through our depot optimisation and maintenance enhancement programmes, and continued investment in our bus fleet, we remain focused on punctuality and service reliability, which alongside value for money are key drivers of passengers’ appetite for bus services. We have also delivered cost reductions of more than £20m in the year. Across the business, efficiencies have been delivered through reduced fuel consumption and better procurement, scheduling and engineering processes.

We have further optimised our operating bases – depots at Parkhead in Glasgow and Newcastle-under-Lyme have been closed with operations transferring elsewhere. In Colchester we invested in a new depot replacing three sites and Bracknell and Braintree operations have been scaled back with certain services now operated from nearby sites. The year saw the closure of our Hereford depot and the sale of the residual South Devon business. Structural changes have also been made to our final salary pension schemes to reduce cost.

Undertakings dating back more than a decade, which placed several restrictions on our flexibility to adjust fares and timetables in our Glasgow and Scotland East businesses, have now been lifted by the Competition and Markets Authority. After the year end we announced the closure of two depots in the region as we respond to current market conditions.

We continue to invest in our mobile and digital platforms to improve our customers’ ability to find service information more simply and reliably. We now offer mobile ticketing across all of our services and are developing enhanced mobile capability to provide multi-modal planning, real time travel information and smart ticketing.

We are also working with data aggregators such as CityMapper and Google Transit to make our real-time information more widely available. Our website has been relaunched with easy to use journey planning, latest information and search functionality. We have delivered our commitment to multi-operator smart ticketing across the city regions in England and are working to deliver a similar scheme for the key city regions in Scotland. We have also committed to work over the coming year with other operators to develop plans to bring contactless EMV technology to our services
.
A fundamental part of our transformation is fleet renewal. In the year we took delivery of 385 vehicles and have announced a £70m order for a further 305 buses since the year end. All buses delivered since mid-2015 are equipped with Euro VI engines, Wi-Fi as standard and an increasing number have USB charging points and next stop audio visual announcements. These investments improve our customer offer, ensure our compliance with disability access legislation and make a major contribution to the clean air agendas of the cities we serve.

Buses remain a critical enabler of economic growth, with more commuters reliant on the UK national bus network every day than on any other form of public transport. We share the aim of local councils and national Government to get more people out of their cars and using buses. In November we welcomed confirmation that Government funding of the Bus Services Operators’ Grant (BSOG) in England will be maintained through to 2020/21.

We are delighted that the new Bus Services Bill gives strong support for enhanced partnerships and provides additional tools for councils and operators jointly to deliver improvements for customers. We believe that local authorities’ objectives for bus services in their area are best delivered through partnerships where the commercial incentive remains with the operator, rather than a complex franchise-based alternative which may not deliver changes or benefits for some years, and where financial risk and additional cost passes to the local authority.

We continue to explore opportunities to work in closer partnership with local authorities in our markets, building on the success we have had to date in increasing both passenger volumes and satisfaction. In November the Sheffield Bus Partnership introduced a new network focused on the economic and social needs of the city while ensuring resources are closely matched with demand. We have also worked to deliver a Rotherham Partnership and one for Doncaster (implemented in May 2016).

In Cornwall, we are working increasingly closely with the County Council to deliver a fully integrated public transport network embracing information, ticketing and connections with rail. We were a sponsor of Bristol European Green Capital 2015, during which we trialled a number of bio-methane and advanced hybrid buses, which are influencing our discussions with Bristol on future fuel technologies.

Our strategy is based on delivering an increasingly digitally enabled customer proposition coupled with sustainably improved operating disciplines and strong local authority partnerships. We believe this is the most responsive, efficient and cost-effective way to deliver the outcomes that bus passengers, local
FirstGroup | Preliminary results for the year to 31 March 2016 14
authorities and taxpayers want and we will continue to enhance our ability to deliver these outcomes going forward.

We expect market conditions to remain challenging in the year ahead. We therefore expect moderate margin progression from the full year benefits of past cost saving actions, additional cost and operational efficiency initiatives and some benefits from our fuel hedging programme.
 

Robertj21a

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State of the nation from First's preliminary results to 31 March 2016:

I read that as 'Business as usual, some things went well but others didn't. Essentially, we are running fast but not really making significant progress towards meeting our key targets'
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I read that as 'Business as usual, some things went well but others didn't. Essentially, we are running fast but not really making significant progress towards meeting our key targets'

That's a little harsh especially when you look at what Stagecoach UK Bus posted. Their six months ended 31 October 2015 was revenue up 0.7% (1.0% on like for like) but operating profit down 18.9%

It isn't easy out there especially with the cutting of both ENCTS remuneration and the "jam" of tendered services on Sun/Eve now commonplace. In that context, it isn't a bad performance. However, you're absolutely right that they're missing out one of their key stated aims. They've got a op margin of 6% which is almost half that of Stagecoach. Not getting the passenger revenue growth is clearly hampering them and whilst they're going well in the South, it clearly isn't happening in some of their northern powerbases.

That said, they're losing the East Lothian ops and will get a pay off in South Yorkshire from the partnerships so that will help margins
 

Robertj21a

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That's a little harsh especially when you look at what Stagecoach UK Bus posted. Their six months ended 31 October 2015 was revenue up 0.7% (1.0% on like for like) but operating profit down 18.9%

It isn't easy out there especially with the cutting of both ENCTS remuneration and the "jam" of tendered services on Sun/Eve now commonplace. In that context, it isn't a bad performance. However, you're absolutely right that they're missing out one of their key stated aims. They've got a op margin of 6% which is almost half that of Stagecoach. Not getting the passenger revenue growth is clearly hampering them and whilst they're going well in the South, it clearly isn't happening in some of their northern powerbases.

That said, they're losing the East Lothian ops and will get a pay off in South Yorkshire from the partnerships so that will help margins


I agree with much of what you say but they have a rather repetitive list, year after year, of excuses for never really making enough progress. I know Blockhead was a major cause of their current difficulties but it's been a good few years now for the new management to get the tanker turned round a bit more.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I agree with much of what you say but they have a rather repetitive list, year after year, of excuses for never really making enough progress. I know Blockhead was a major cause of their current difficulties but it's been a good few years now for the new management to get the tanker turned round a bit more.

Fair comment on that but perhaps a reflection on how bad things had got at First. Not merely just a case of turning the tanker, but replacing most of the crew, repairing the hull in many areas, and then having to jettison a load of dodgy cargo that had probably been decent once but had been neglected and gone off!! Whilst turning into a headwind!

The Scottish obligations have now been removed and that will certainly assist; again, it was a Moir piece of idiocy in agreeing to them and maximise his empire rather than accept some divestment in order to provide the latitude to manage efficiently.

As I've said before, the market will take some time (and a dividend) to regain the trust that was, in essence, abused before.
 

baza585

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Fair comment on that but perhaps a reflection on how bad things had got at First. Not merely just a case of turning the tanker, but replacing most of the crew, repairing the hull in many areas, and then having to jettison a load of dodgy cargo that had probably been decent once but had been neglected and gone off!! Whilst turning into a headwind!

The Scottish obligations have now been removed and that will certainly assist; again, it was a Moir piece of idiocy in agreeing to them and maximise his empire rather than accept some divestment in order to provide the latitude to manage efficiently.

As I've said before, the market will take some time (and a dividend) to regain the trust that was, in essence, abused before.

I think the market reaction (up 6%) to results that were broadly in line or slightly better than expectations says it all about the extent to which FG plc has underwhelmed the market with its numbers in the past.

Still, as you say, signs of progress, and rather better than the recent Stagecoach (much beloved of folk on this thread) numbers. IF only FG could get its margins up to Stagecoach levels.

I've always thought First has a lot of potential because it is a key player in many of the biggest cities and conurbations which ought to be fruitful bus territory. Hopefully there are some signs of green shoots in these results; certainly the dead wood is finally being trimmed!!
 

Robertj21a

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Fair comment on that but perhaps a reflection on how bad things had got at First. Not merely just a case of turning the tanker, but replacing most of the crew, repairing the hull in many areas, and then having to jettison a load of dodgy cargo that had probably been decent once but had been neglected and gone off!! Whilst turning into a headwind!

The Scottish obligations have now been removed and that will certainly assist; again, it was a Moir piece of idiocy in agreeing to them and maximise his empire rather than accept some divestment in order to provide the latitude to manage efficiently.

As I've said before, the market will take some time (and a dividend) to regain the trust that was, in essence, abused before.


Good analogy, I like it !

At least another 5 years at the current rate of progress ?
 

overthewater

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, it was a Moir piece of idiocy in agreeing to them and maximise his empire rather than accept some divestment in order to provide the latitude to manage efficiently.

Your being to nice about that. ;)

We continued to experience weakening concessionary revenues throughout the year, while like-for-like commercial passenger revenues increased by 1.1%. Our markets in the south of the UK continue to see more positive trends than our operations in the north and Scotland.

The results are not to bad, but there really should make it alot clearer and a much stronger case about why their Scottish operations are dire, instead of wishy washy statements. Maybe there should have another table to show what the proper results are ( ie with out the Scottish control bits)

Of course the next statement has to be how are there going two grow the operations? and convince people back on to their services for shopping and more importantly work. ( I think were still at least six months away for that)
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm going to talk about the strikes in Leeds yesterday here after a comment on this thread about another bus company.

I do wonder what is going on in West Yorkshire. It was only a few months ago that there were several strikes at Bradford, mostly about pay but with plenty of anger about running boards being transferred from Bradford to other depots (mostly the 576 which has historically been a Halifax service, but was transferred to Bradford a few years ago). Now the same arguments are coming out at Leeds.

I can't imagine this will do much good for the staff, if I'm honest. First already seem in a state of retrenchment in West Yorkshire, having abandoned a lot of marginal and tendered services to Yorkshire Tiger and other small independents. I'm not sure that now is the best time to be picking fights about pay and conditions. But equally I wonder what has gone wrong with the industrial relations there, it seems that the staff there are very worried about the future.
 

Volvodart

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The Scottish operations apart from Scotland East were doing better than the Manchester and South Yorkshire businesses which were hardly in profit last year.The Aberdeen and Glasgow profits were a lot better than they have been for many years. I would not say that they are dire.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I'm going to talk about the strikes in Leeds yesterday here after a comment on this thread about another bus company.

I do wonder what is going on in West Yorkshire. It was only a few months ago that there were several strikes at Bradford, mostly about pay but with plenty of anger about running boards being transferred from Bradford to other depots (mostly the 576 which has historically been a Halifax service, but was transferred to Bradford a few years ago). Now the same arguments are coming out at Leeds.

I can't imagine this will do much good for the staff, if I'm honest. First already seem in a state of retrenchment in West Yorkshire, having abandoned a lot of marginal and tendered services to Yorkshire Tiger and other small independents. I'm not sure that now is the best time to be picking fights about pay and conditions. But equally I wonder what has gone wrong with the industrial relations there, it seems that the staff there are very worried about the future.

It is a valid question and yes, you wonder what has gone on here? Especially as the two parties (Unite and First) went to ACAS, agreed a deal that was then taken to the workforce with a recommendation to accept and who have then decided to ignore the recommendation and have elected to strike.

However, perhaps a few other things to reflect upon:

  • The other operations were working normally
  • The Bradford dispute was reconciled
  • The relinquishing of marginal work/tendered work is perhaps not surprising when they have a higher cost base (in terms of staff costs) - something that will only be exacerbated by a pay rise of nearly 4% but.....
  • ....they have just been awarded a contract to run services 59, 60A, 61 and X63 which were provided by Yorkshire Tiger

Hopefully, common sense will prevail.
 

overthewater

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The Scottish operations apart from Scotland East were doing better than the Manchester and South Yorkshire businesses which were hardly in profit last year.The Aberdeen and Glasgow profits were a lot better than they have been for many years. I would not say that they are dire.

Then the statement from first really does need to be made alot clearer. If there omit FSE which there clearly should because its not a normal operation, the statement would have been alot better.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The results are not to bad, but there really should make it alot clearer and a much stronger case about why their Scottish operations are dire, instead of wishy washy statements. Maybe there should have another table to show what the proper results are ( ie with out the Scottish control bits)

Of course the next statement has to be how are there going two grow the operations? and convince people back on to their services for shopping and more importantly work. ( I think were still at least six months away for that)

They do provide information on the specific opcos, but there is a limit to how much they should divulge as it is commercially confidential.

Perhaps another aspect is to look at what Stagecoach said:

Excluding concessionary volumes, like-for-like passenger journeys grew 0.4%. In some of our regional bus companies, growth was over 3%. We continue to see growth rates vary across the country with local economic conditions having a significant effect.

That volatility or polarisation is exactly the same as First. The only difference is that if First announce cuts in the Borders and people dive into an onanistic, pounding frenzy whereas Stagecoach cut in Fife and it barely pricks the consciousness.
 

overthewater

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That volatility or polarisation is exactly the same as First. The only difference is that if First announce cuts in the Borders and people dive into an onanistic, pounding frenzy whereas Stagecoach cut in Fife and it barely pricks the consciousness.

It seems more of those cuts in the borders are tenders, so the scale is not that bad. I have to wonder why there hasnt been bigger outcry about those stagecoach cuts.
 

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