First Group: General Discussion

[d1672]

Hi,

67106 -67140 are missing from the list.


Thomas

 

[Andyh82]

West of England received both types last year - 23 MMC and 34 Streetdecks.

Nothing for Manchester though

Manchester have just received the highly specified Vantage Streetdecks, plus they received a lot of new buses recently when they took over Finglands.

 

[winston270twm]

Manchester have just received the highly specified Vantage Streetdecks, plus they received a lot of new buses recently when they took over Finglands.

The new buses for former Finglands routes didn't replace any existing fleet vehicles, the fleet expanded. I would have thought the W-reg Citaro's must be due for retirement soon.
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35168 to 35238 = 71 Streetdecks. It includes the Leicester and Norwich examples

Conflict with the FSY Streetlites with 63369-74 allegedly for Rotherham and 63375-88 for Doncaster reported elsewhere. Not entirely surprised to see Potteries getting some fleet. Not only is it desperately needed, there had been some talk about it. Mind you, this is First so expect more changes between now and delivery

This years First Group order isn't that great with the Leicester & Norwich Streetdecks being included, can't see it allowing that many midlife cascades to other subsidiaries

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Manchester have just received the highly specified Vantage Streetdecks, plus they received a lot of new buses recently when they took over Finglands.

Yeah, they did well with the 2012 deliveries but the Finglands replacements were 2014 and only represented 27 deckers. The Streetlites are also relatively few in number.

The Vantage deckers are actually B5LHs not Streetdecks and whilst 20 is quite welcome, it's not that many in the scheme of things.

That said, the fleet profile is not as pressing as some areas but still a slight surprise that nothing this year after only 20 in 2015.

 

[overthewater]

FIRST BUS ORDERS 2016/17.
33431 - 33449 Enviro 400 MMC for Scotland East.
source:- British Bus Publishing 2016 First Bus Handbook.

Just clicked at those: There should be either for X62 in the borders OR 27/28 in west Lothian.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The new buses for former Finglands routes didn't replace any existing fleet vehicles, the fleet expanded. I would have though the W-reg Citaro's must be due for retirement soon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This years First Group order isn't that great with the Leicester & Norwich Streetdecks being included, can't see it allowing that many midlife cascades to other subsidiaries

Agree, it doesn't appear like much scope but it'll be the usual eclectic set of changes. After all, I don't know what odds there were on a load of shabby B7Ls heading to Bristol from Norwich last year but lo.....

They'll be some further trimming of fleet as well from cuts (see Wiltshire and Somerset currently) plus any effects of SY bus partnerships as examples. There may even be cuts in Scotland now undertakings have been relaxed so a merry go round kicks in.

In FWoE over the last two years, they've had Darts (Wales), Tridents (Glasgow), B10BLEs (East Scotland), B7L (Somerset and Norwich), B7TL (Bradford, Leicester and Southampton), e400 (Leicester) to name a few. Come to expect anything from anywhere!!

 

[winston270twm]

Agree, it doesn't appear like much scope but it'll be the usual eclectic set of changes. After all, I don't know what odds there were on a load of shabby B7Ls heading to Bristol from Norwich last year but lo.....

They'll be some further trimming of fleet as well from cuts (see Wiltshire and Somerset currently) plus any effects of SY bus partnerships as examples. There may even be cuts in Scotland now undertakings have been relaxed so a merry go round kicks in.

In FWoE over the last two years, they've had Darts (Wales), Tridents (Glasgow), B10BLEs (East Scotland), B7L (Somerset and Norwich), B7TL (Bradford, Leicester and Southampton), e400 (Leicester) to name a few. Come to expect anything from anywhere!!

The trouble is all those moves were just temporary stop gaps designed to fill a hole briefly. 305 new buses on a group fleet of 6300 implies a vehicle life of 20.6 years. There's a high concentration of group buses all delivered between 2000-5 that will all be due for replacement at the same time in the coming years. The B7L's are well past their best, as are the W-reg Citaro's at Manchester. There's still a few step entry double deckers left at FWY and quite a few non DDA Tridents & B7TL's and that W-reg & older.

I don't see with that order level, how First can't have plans to trim back or possibly make odd disposals as you say. Even 12 of WofE E400MMC's are for new Park & Ride work

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The trouble is all those moves were just temporary stop gaps designed to fill a hole briefly. 305 new buses on a group fleet of 6300 implies a vehicle life of 20.6 years. There's a high concentration of group buses all delivered between 2000-5 that will all be due for replacement at the same time in the coming years. The B7L's are well past their best, as are the W-reg Citaro's at Manchester. There's still a few step entry double deckers left at FWY and quite a few non DDA Tridents & B7TL's and that W-reg & older.

I don't see with that order level, how First can't have plans to trim back or possibly make odd disposals as you say. Even 12 of WofE E400MMC's are for new Park & Ride work

All fair points - as you say, there's a fair chunk of fleet from 2000-3 to get through. A fleet like WoE has a bevy of B7L and B7TLs in that band - c.

That said, that may point to a substantial single deck order in future years to get through that and something nearer 400 a year. The decker heavy order this year may be artificially low to get PSVAR compliant.

 

[Volvodart]

They were meant to be spending several million more this year, according to the business plan from the investor day in 2014, which shows spend to be similar to last year (unless they are planning more refurbishments this year). This is supposed to be the last year of the extra investment from the rights issue.

 

[83G/84D]

Hi,

67106 -67140 are missing from the list.


Thomas

I know but they are not shown in the book!

 

[winston270twm]

They were meant to be spending several million more this year, according to the business plan from the investor day in 2014, which shows spend to be similar to last year (unless they are planning more refurbishments this year). This is supposed to be the last year of the extra investment from the rights issue.

Exactly, the whole purpose of the Rights Issue was to pay down debt & fund investment going forward (i.e. fleet replacement). I suspect some of the Rights Issue pot has had to be used to manage debt, as other things have gone against them i.e. Rail Franchise wins & retaining existing franchises resulting in reduced cash flows & profits since the issue.

Either way, First Group need to maintain a consistent fleet replacement program based on quantity rather than total order value in order to spread-out new vehicle requirements over more years. Otherwise they are constantly going to playing catch-up due to large quantities of certain types being bought during certain years & all being due for replacement at the same time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All fair points - as you say, there's a fair chunk of fleet from 2000-3 to get through. A fleet like WoE has a bevy of B7L and B7TLs in that band - c.

That said, that may point to a substantial single deck order in future years to get through that and something nearer 400 a year. The decker heavy order this year may be artificially low to get PSVAR compliant.

But First like everyone else have had plenty of notice to ensure the decker fleet is PSVAR, rather than leaving it until the last minute & having to order a larger amount. They've still only ordered 204 new deckers, it's 3.2% of the fleet based on 6300.

Really First need to be consistently ordering circa 420 buses per year based on a 15 year vehicle life (6300 UK fleet), this would then allow the poorer First subsidiaries to gain newer cascades than are presently available.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Exactly, the whole purpose of the Rights Issue was to pay down debt & fund investment going forward (i.e. fleet replacement). I suspect some of the Rights Issue pot has had to be used to manage debt, as other things have gone against them i.e. Rail Franchise wins & retaining existing franchises resulting in reduced cash flows & profits since the issue.

Either way, First Group need to maintain a consistent fleet replacement program based on quantity rather than total order value in order to spread-out new vehicle requirements over more years. Otherwise they are constantly going to playing catch-up due to large quantities of certain types being bought during certain years & all being due for replacement at the same time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But First like everyone else have had plenty of notice to ensure the decker fleet is PSVAR, rather than leaving it until the last minute & having to order a larger amount. They've still only ordered 204 new deckers, it's 3.2% of the fleet based on 6300.

Really First need to be consistently ordering circa 420 buses per year based on a 15 year vehicle life (6300 UK fleet), this would then allow the poorer First subsidiaries to gain newer cascades than are presently available.

Again, I don't really disagree with that. However, they got themselves into a hole regarding fleet replacement with the period 2006-2011 being parlous in terms of spend. We all know that; there shouldn't have been the need to spend money in 2012/3 to replace 18 year old Darts. However, the purchase of Laidlaw soaked up too much capital and led to UK Bus becoming a cash cow.

The last couple of orders before this were 425 and 385 (I think?) and that should be the usual size of order. This is lower because they've had to run deckers on longer and that's because of the rush to meet last year's deadline.

 

[winston270twm]

Again, I don't really disagree with that. However, they got themselves into a hole regarding fleet replacement with the period 2006-2011 being parlous in terms of spend. We all know that; there shouldn't have been the need to spend money in 2012/3 to replace 18 year old Darts. However, the purchase of Laidlaw soaked up too much capital and led to UK Bus becoming a cash cow.

The last couple of orders before this were 425 and 385 (I think?) and that should be the usual size of order. This is lower because they've had to run deckers on longer and that's because of the rush to meet last year's deadline.

Weren't there also some decent quantities of buses going in to London from group orders rather than the provinces mostly on 59/10/60/11 plates ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Weren't there also some decent quantities of buses going in to London from group orders rather than the provinces mostly on 59/10/60/11 plates ?

It's fair comment. Of course, there was some investment in the Provinces but nowhere near where it should've been and all too often, vehicles were then moved around. New fleet for the provinces tended to head to the main urban operations (understandably).

Now, to be fair, Stagecoach had a similar issue in the millenium age. It wasn't as pronounced as First (because Moir was pigheaded) but an issue nonetheless. So with a better starting off point, they managed to start improving fleets by cascading early. A number of fleets (Devon, Gloucs, Northants) benefited by receiving Tridents and e400s that were relatively young yet with a lump of NBV already taken by fleets like Manchester.

Aside from a number of B7RLEs that went to Manchester and thence to Dorset, Cornwall, Hampshire or elsewhere, that's not really been the case with First.

 

[Andyh82]

But First like everyone else have had plenty of notice to ensure the decker fleet is PSVAR, rather than leaving it until the last minute & having to order a larger amount. They've still only ordered 204 new deckers, it's 3.2% of the fleet based on 6300.

Really First need to be consistently ordering circa 420 buses per year based on a 15 year vehicle life (6300 UK fleet), this would then allow the poorer First subsidiaries to gain newer cascades than are presently available.

Would they be looking at a 15 year life.

Once everything is low floor after the end of the year could they be looking at 20 years?

I wouldn't say the W reg ALX400s were ready for scrap, and could continue in use on schools and in less profitable fleets/on less profitable routes for at least another 5 years.

The fact they don't do refurbishments so they generally have threadbare seating that was thin to start with during that era and etched windows is more of an issue.

 

[winston270twm]

Would they be looking at a 15 year life.

Once everything is low floor after the end of the year could they be looking at 20 years?

I wouldn't say the W reg ALX400s were ready for scrap, and could continue in use on schools and in less profitable fleets/on less profitable routes for at least another 5 years.

The fact they don't do refurbishments so they generally have threadbare seating that was thin to start with during that era and etched windows is more of an issue.

There's a number of fleets that have been 100% low floor for years, well in advance of DDA requirements. First should be setting standards, not cutting it fine in complying with the minimum requirements, they only just met the DDA single decker requirement at the end of last year.

If First wanted a 20 years life of it's fleet, it would need to implement a comprehensive refurbishment programme after 7-10 years service, something which it hasn't be doing. With an increasing number of Quality Partnership scheme's including improved Air Quality involving min emission requirements in our towns & cities, buses may not be able to stay in frontline service that long in the future without being re-engined or heavily modifications. First only has so many school routes where older buses could be used.

Can you image what a lightweight Streetlite would be like after 20 years service? You only have to look at how tired the B7TL's & B7L's are after 15-16 years service now, which have gone un-refurbished since the day they were new.

No one is suggesting that W-reg ALX400's should be scrapped, but for a large group, First should really be looking at disposing of the majority of them at circa 15 years old & selling them as runners on the used market to smaller operators for schools / private hires etc

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Would they be looking at a 15 year life.

Once everything is low floor after the end of the year could they be looking at 20 years?

I wouldn't say the W reg ALX400s were ready for scrap, and could continue in use on schools and in less profitable fleets/on less profitable routes for at least another 5 years.

The fact they don't do refurbishments so they generally have threadbare seating that was thin to start with during that era and etched windows is more of an issue.

I was thinking the opposite. They may be financing the new fleet by a claimed 15 year life but should they be looking at less.

The Streetlites in use in The Potteries are woeful - both the new ones and the not quite new ones. If they are in service on their fifteenth birthday I will be very surprised. They are already rattling like a bag of nuts and bolts. Never mind the missing second gear (they have a rather uncomfortable habit of going straight from first to third) and the back pain inducing snatch braking. They should come fitted with foam windscreens to prevent passenger injuries! And no, it is not individual drivers - unless every single one is a bad driver, and that is certainly not the case.

A while back, PMT as was, went through a similar 'lightweight bus' phase. It was not pleasant period. Powered rollerskates rather than buses.

 

[overthewater]

Alas First will have to make its money back on those streetlites, and were stuck with them for at least 15 years. Citaro are just dire and crap on wheels but FSE are stuck with them even if there spend most of there times in the depots...... Streetslites are here to stay for many years to come.

 

[the101]

It's not possible for a Voith 'box to go from first to third gear in one go. The design precludes it, and even if it was, it would probably stall the engine as the rev gap would be so large.

 

[THarris123]

It's not possible for a Voith 'box to go from first to third gear in one go. The design precludes it, and even if it was, it would probably stall the engine as the rev gap would be so large.

Well I've heard something similar happening on nearly each and every Streetlite/Streetdeck in WoE. The 376 Streetdecks are particularly bad at it. I don't expect they are skipping a gear, but it certainly sounds like it so must be something similar.

 

[vicbury]

I was thinking the opposite. They may be financing the new fleet by a claimed 15 year life but should they be looking at less.

The Streetlites in use in The Potteries are woeful - both the new ones and the not quite new ones. If they are in service on their fifteenth birthday I will be very surprised. They are already rattling like a bag of nuts and bolts. Never mind the missing second gear (they have a rather uncomfortable habit of going straight from first to third) and the back pain inducing snatch braking. They should come fitted with foam windscreens to prevent passenger injuries! And no, it is not individual drivers - unless every single one is a bad driver, and that is certainly not the case.

A while back, PMT as was, went through a similar 'lightweight bus' phase. It was not pleasant period. Powered rollerskates rather than buses.

Surely third to first would be uncomfortable not first to third?

But yes agreed the gearboxes on the Streetlites are rubbish; they jerk you around and seem to get stuck between gears.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It's not possible for a Voith 'box to go from first to third gear in one go. The design precludes it, and even if it was, it would probably stall the engine as the rev gap would be so large.

I'm neither a mechanic nor a driver. My idea of changing gear is to return home in my walking clothes and change into my going out clothes , but that is how a driver described it to me (as his colleague attempted to short cut the exit from the interchange over the anti-pedestrian surface, and taking the traffic light with him!).

Others seem to agree to a similar situation if not the exact description.

And stall is what they do, often when you're halfway out of a junction with traffic coming at you.

Snatch and jerk is not a technique to attract new passengers nor retain existing ones. It needs sorting be that through warranty work or retrofit / software fine-tuning at the operators expense.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm neither a mechanic nor a driver. My idea of changing gear is to return home in my walking clothes and change into my going out clothes , but that is how a driver described it to me (as his colleague attempted to short cut the exit from the interchange over the anti-pedestrian surface, and taking the traffic light with him!).

Others seem to agree to a similar situation if not the exact description.

And stall is what they do, often when you're halfway out of a junction with traffic coming at you.

Snatch and jerk is not a technique to attract new passengers nor retain existing ones. It needs sorting be that through warranty work or retrofit / software fine-tuning at the operators expense.

I'm led to believe that there have been some warranty mods/gearbox remapping on examples in South Yorkshire.

I've experienced some of those issues on a couple of Bath based examples but most have actually been ok.

One note of caution - there have been a number of examples of buses entering service with the call "they'll never last" - such as Leyland Nationals, Dennis Darts and even Ford Transits. They, of course, had long lives in some instances. The flipside is that Optare's answer to the Dennis Dart which was the Vecta - felt well made, drivers liked them, went well etc. However, mechanically they were very fragile and most met a premature end.

 

[baza585]

I'm led to believe that there have been some warranty mods/gearbox remapping on examples in South Yorkshire.

I've experienced some of those issues on a couple of Bath based examples but most have actually been ok.

It seems to vary between depots; Solent's Cummins engine Streetlites generally seem OK whereas some of Southampton's from the same batch do seem to be hunting between gears at times.

As for the Merc engine versions, plenty of power but too many niggles/resets for such new buses.

 

[the101]

And stall is what they do, often when you're halfway out of a junction with traffic coming at you.

Snatch and jerk is not a technique to attract new passengers nor retain existing ones. It needs sorting be that through warranty work or retrofit / software fine-tuning at the operators expense.

So you're saying that on a regular basis they conk out completely and the driver has stop, get the handbrake on and restart the engine?

As for defective software of equipment in a bus that is still under warranty being fixed at the operator's expense, I am not following you there. It is nothing to do with the operator. The onus to rectify it is on the manufacturer, and that is exactly what has happened on more than one batch of StreetDecks.

 

[Robertj21a]

So you're saying that on a regular basis they conk out completely and the driver has stop, get the handbrake on and restart the engine?

As for defective software of equipment in a bus that is still under warranty being fixed at the operator's expense, I am not following you there. It is nothing to do with the operator. The onus to rectify it is on the manufacturer, and that is exactly what has happened on more than one batch of StreetDecks.

.......on most/all batches of Streetdecks ?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

So you're saying that on a regular basis they conk out completely and the driver has stop, get the handbrake on and restart the engine?

As for defective software of equipment in a bus that is still under warranty being fixed at the operator's expense, I am not following you there. It is nothing to do with the operator. The onus to rectify it is on the manufacturer, and that is exactly what has happened on more than one batch of StreetDecks.

I didn't say that it happened regularly (how often is regular?), I said it happened, often when pulling out of a junction. That is, the driver pulls out into what would normally be a suitable gap in traffic, starts to turn and there is no acceleration available, the bus slows, perhaps stops, but the gap in traffic is no longer sufficient. Whether he applies the handbrake and restarts the engine I know not. A non-driver does not need to know the details of exactly what a stall is.

As for warranty or operator expense, I was putting forward the two options. I didn't buy the buses so I don't have a copy of the contract specifying the warranty period. If I had simply said 'the manufacturer should sort the problem under warranty' someone would have come back and said 'the warranty is only 12 months, why should the manufacturer bear the cost'.

As it happens, the three buses I have been on yesterday / today did not exhibit any of the problems described, perhaps it is specific buses, perhaps modifications have been made.

 

[the101]

As for warranty or operator expense, I was putting forward the two options. I didn't buy the buses so I don't have a copy of the contract specifying the warranty period. If I had simply said 'the manufacturer should sort the problem under warranty' someone would have come back and said 'the warranty is only 12 months, why should the manufacturer bear the cost'.

OK. There is more than one year's warranty supplied on new buses, and there were various suggestions that First 'asked' for an extension for some of its StreetLites as a result of the problems that they had suffered. In any case, if a bus is out of warranty and develops a problem that is as a result of poor manufacture/design it is not likely that any of the manufacturers will tell the likes of First to get lost and sort it out themsleves. That was the kind of behaviour that contributed to the termination of Stagecoach's relationship with MAN.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.......on most/all batches of Streetdecks ?

I don't know if it has been all - most likely not, as I would imagine that Wrightbus would very quickly integrate any mods at the line stage - but certainly the Oxford ones have had modification to the gearboxes. Wrights also did work on some/all of the StreetLites with First W of E as the Micro Hybrid system was causing jolts when braking.

 

[GBM]

. Wrights also did work on some/all of the StreetLites with First W of E as the Micro Hybrid system was causing jolts when braking.

Kernow ones suffering when braking and dropping down the gears. Impossible to drive smoothly, leaving passengers wondering who taught that driver to drive like that.

 

[THarris123]

Does anyone know where I can find a current fleet list of Yorkshire?

Also does anyone know what the E200MMCs will replace in Adderley Green?