First Group: General Discussion

[WatcherZero]

Hull Trains made about £4m profit on turnover of £29m last year, up from £1.6m on £24m two years ago (though as it was getting towards the end of its license they might have been rear loading some of the profits). First own 80% of shares.

 

[overthewater]

Is it THIS Friday when the next first group corporate briefing takes place?

Also someone has said the undertakings for FSE may be held back until early May because of the Scottish election, would seem pretty pointless in the greater scheme of things.

 

[Volvodart]

NO updates are scheduled until the results announcement sometime in June.

 

[THarris123]

Just looked through Steve whites spreadsheet for First Group.

For anyone interested, the figures i've got for fleet Y reg and older:
161 singles (made up of B10s in Aberdeen and Yorkshire and Manchester Citaros mostly)
354 deckers (a high number in Yorkshire, Edinburgh and Kernow)
4 Bendies
7 coaches

Not sure what that means for this year's orders, but might give a rough estimate.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just looked through Steve whites spreadsheet for First Group.

For anyone interested, the figures i've got for fleet Y reg and older:
161 singles (made up of B10s in Aberdeen and Yorkshire and Manchester Citaros mostly)
354 deckers (a high number in Yorkshire, Edinburgh and Kernow)
4 Bendies
7 coaches

Not sure what that means for this year's orders, but might give a rough estimate.

I'd suspect another c.400 to 450 as a number of those deckers will be PSVAR and will last a few more years. Some of those B10BLEs are paint floats and the like.

 

[overthewater]

On top of that there is good night of School contracts up for renewal within the First Scot east empire so if there lose work, no need to replace them. Does First yorkshire have many School contracts? I still expect to see around 250 new deckers.

 

[Blackpudding]

I'd suspect another c.400 to 450 as a number of those deckers will be PSVAR and will last a few more years. Some of those B10BLEs are paint floats and the like.

On top of that there is good night of School contracts up for renewal within the First Scot east empire so if there lose work, no need to replace them. Does First yorkshire have many School contracts? I still expect to see around 250 new deckers.

I think both numbers seem on the high side. As TGW says a number of the deckers are already PSVAR with more to be done and who is to say that it will be a like for like replacement - I'm sure where it is felt adequate saloons will replace deckers. And don't forget with the Buses Bill next year if it's ok to run at the moment why change until you know the outcome of the bill.

 

[overthewater]

I think both numbers seem on the high side. As TGW says a number of the deckers are already PSVAR with more to be done and who is to say that it will be a like for like replacement - I'm sure where it is felt adequate saloons will replace deckers. And don't forget with the Buses Bill next year if it's ok to run at the moment why change until you know the outcome of the bill.

Because the bill does not effect Scotland where a good number of those older fleets are based.

 

[THarris123]

Because the bill does not effect Scotland where a good number of those older fleets are based.

The Old fleet isn't based in Scotland - not sure where you got that from. Look at the investment that Glasgow has seen in recent years.

The old fleet is spread out across the whole country, with most old deckers in Yorkshire, a few less in Larbert and the next largest majority funny enough Kernow. Then the rest of Scotland is much lower in that list, even trailing behind Bristol in terms of old fleet.
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That post is not anything to do with DDA, it is simply showing the age of the fleet that's left in numbers. I'm sure a good 100 deckers are DDA compliant in that list, so I expect about 250 new vehicles to replace that. Then I expect we'll also see the end of the Manchester Citaros. So probably about 300 odd new buses coming in this year.

Do we know what they're planning in Yorkshire? I thought at one point they were looking into bringing in London style buses up there. Is that going ahead?

 

[Andyh82]

Do we know what they're planning in Yorkshire? I thought at one point they were looking into bringing in London style buses up there. Is that going ahead?

Nothing more has been said on that matter since, it'll be mentioned again next time a London style contracts system is mentioned. It was only ever a long term aspiration, nothing was ever concrete.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On top of that there is good night of School contract up for renewal within the First Scot east empire so if there lose work, no need to replace them. Does First yorkshire have many School contracts? I still expect to see around 250 new deckers.

Yes loads, All of West Yorkshire's Olympians are pretty much employed on schools contracts only. They are unlikely to lose these contracts so will need replacements cascading in. Some are "closed door" though so aren't they exempt from the DDA deadlines?

 

[overthewater]

The Old fleet isn't based in Scotland - not sure where you got that from. Look at the investment that Glasgow has seen in recent years.

I never said that, I said "good number" - and also to point out since Scotland is out side the outcome of the bill its older fleet will have to get replaced either way. Glasgow oldest deckers I think are now 51 plates and there really down at the heel now.

Yes loads, All of West Yorkshire's Olympians are pretty much employed on schools contracts only. They are unlikely to lose these contracts so will need replacements cascading in. Some are "closed door" though so aren't they exempt from the DDA deadlines?

Yes anything on a close contracts are not affected by the DDA deadline.

 

[Volvodart]

I never said that, I said "good number" - and also to point out since Scotland is out side the outcome of the bill its older fleet will have to get replaced either way. Glasgow oldest deckers I think are now 51 plates and there really down at the heel now.

Glasgow has just reinstated a T reg and has some X and Y reg also.

 

[THarris123]

Yes ok overthewater did say that there is a good number - but in comparison to much of England, Scotland hasn't got a good number of the old fleet. It's received plenty of investment compared to other areas in recent years. I personally don't expect we'll see many new vehicles for Scotland this year - maybe some new stuff in Aberdeen, but I think we'll see investment mostly based in England (Kernow, Bristol, Leicester, a few at Norwich and a stack in Yorkshire and Manchester).

 

[Volvodart]

We know Glasgow are getting some Enviro200MMCs for the Glasgow Airport Express.

 

[THarris123]

We know Glasgow are getting some Enviro200MMCs for the Glasgow Airport Express.

Ok so is that as much in comparison to previous years?
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The real point that i'm trying to make here is that it isn't as bad as people think and that after a few years of decent investment in new vehicles, I think we'll see much less being invested in Scotland this year. I may well be completely wrong as usual of course.

 

[Volvodart]

In the past, taken together, Scotland has always had its fair share of new buses as a percentage of the group order. I cannot see this stopping though. Glasgow are due a sizeable new bus order as it has (net) had very few new buses in the last couple of years taking account of the newish transfers out.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In the past, taken together, Scotland has always had its fair share of new buses as a percentage of the group order. I cannot see this stopping though. Glasgow are due a sizeable new bus order as it has (net) had very few new buses in the last couple of years taking account of the newish transfers out.

I suspect we will see the usual complex sets of group cascades and transfers so it won't be straightforward and subject to the usual caveats.

Think Glasgow will get some sizeable order to allow some cascading of mid life or newer fleet elsewhere. Leicester and Norwich are confirmed with new fleet already (possible cascades from Leicester to Potteries??) and Kernow is widely reported to be receiving new fleet.

 

[overthewater]

It very possible the Glasgow order might just be enough to get rid of the pre 52 stock and I would not wish any of those on anyone else. FSE, only needs to get some new deckers

I would be surprised if Manchester or Yorkshire doesn't get a good chuck aswell, but were just have to wait and see.

I wonder why new order details are becoming a state secret?

 

[90sWereBetter]

Norwich is currently receiving its Streetdecks for the Pink Line 11/12 services. Once these are in service, this will cascade a number of 51/02/52 reg Tridents to other fleets. Essex has been mentioned as a likely home for these on one of the local bus blogs, given the T-reg Tridents they operate around Basildon are probably not DDA-complaint (and even if they are, they are the oldest deckers in everyday service in East Anglia). Kernow has also been mentioned.

There are some cascades due into Norwich to replace the Red Line fleet, but there's no confirmation as to what these will be. The rumour was B9/Wright deckers from Manchester, but apparently that's been debunked. As far as I know, there are no other new vehicles expected this year for Eastern Counties. The Blue Line B9s at Norwich will be refurbished in the coming months. And then, maybe finally the Yarmouth Presidents will get repainted out of Barbie livery.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It very possible the Glasgow order might just be enough to get rid of the pre 52 stock and I would not wish any of those on anyone else. FSE, only needs to get some new deckers

I would be surprised if Manchester or Yorkshire doesn't get a good chuck aswell, but were just have to wait and see.

I wonder why new order details are becoming a state secret?

Perhaps there's the finalisation of various elements to the order? Not least because there are late changes (e.g. the Bristol P&R win).

 

[GaryMcEwan]

To be fair Glasgow have really invested over the last couple of years, and the only way is up surely...

 

[Lynford1976]

Have there been any bids for the money on offer from the Office for Low Emission Vehicles? I know Stagecoach are hoping for a contribution towards 79 flywheel-fitted double-deckers for Cambridge, whilst Nottingham City Transport have put a bid in for gas-powered vehicles. I gather the results are due to be announced imminently.

 

[vicbury]

Have there been any bids for the money on offer from the Office for Low Emission Vehicles? I know Stagecoach are hoping for a contribution towards 79 flywheel-fitted double-deckers for Cambridge, whilst Nottingham City Transport have put a bid in for gas-powered vehicles. I gather the results are due to be announced imminently.

Yes Bristol has bid for 110 gas buses.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

What's this I've heard about Glasgow's E400MMC's being off the road? Glasgow have drafted in 32675 from Livingston due to the ongoing fleet shortage at Caley as well...

 

[THarris123]

Do we know what vehicles will be cascaded out of Leicester when the Streetdecks turn up?

 

[Robertj21a]

Do we know what vehicles will be cascaded out of Leicester when the Streetdecks turn up?

The ex-London E400s

 

[THarris123]

The ex-London E400s

Bit surprised by that - would have thought some of the single decks would go - aren't there still 02 reg B7Ls in Leicester?

 

[Strathclyder]

What's this I've heard about Glasgow's E400MMC's being off the road? Glasgow have drafted in 32675 from Livingston due to the ongoing fleet shortage at Caley as well...

The majority of them were pulled off the road on March 31st/April 1st due to a serious fault (which can't be discussed here for various reasons). Not all of them were affected, as at least one each was out on the 5 & 75 with a few more on the X85/X87 on 1st April.

 

[Robertj21a]

Bit surprised by that - would have thought some of the single decks would go - aren't there still 02 reg B7Ls in Leicester?

Yes, but they don't need more double deckers.

 

[317 forever]

The ex-London E400s

I regret not riding one but I was waiting for St Margarets bus station to reopen, which it will 2 weeks from now.

I wonder where these E400s will go? As they have already been refurbished it makes sense for them to cover profitable routes.