First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

I wonder that aswell sometime, i bet Badgerline would have been doing nicely the now, i doubt GRt would have been able to buy Strathclyde Buses .

The problems with GRT started when the actually bought Midland Bluebird, SMT, and Lowland. I remember reading blockhead was unhappy with Midland, and claimed it was over manned and wasteful including having extra stuff it never needed like a big workshop. So alot of stuff was rip out, then SMT had the same done to it.

 

[ChrisPJ]

That's an interesting comment about vehicle specs above. I don't think the public realise that a new First bus is anything special internally. Stagey Gold and Arriva Sapphire both look a cut above on the outside. First "standard" doesn't.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

When you look at the way First has topsy turvied in some areas, people are comparing things to Stagecoach, and even the Go Ahead Group. Stagecoach does reasonably well in rural and semi rural areas, as it started off as a long distance coach operator, and in the mid 1980s bought a rural bus operator, Mclennans of Spittalfield. In the NBC bidding, it bought Ribble, Hampshire Bus, and United Counties, all of which were semi rural and interurban operators. Same with Fife and Bluebird in the SBG sell off. Save for the purchase and subsequent ordered sale of Portsmouth, it never went into urban networks until it bought GCT in Grimsby in 1993. Even now, that's absorbed into another Stagecoach inter urban operation, Lincolnshire.

The Go Ahead group started off slightly differently, with Go Ahead Northern, which was an urban and interurban operator combined, through a vast network in Tyne and Wear, and rural operations in northern County Durham. It also ran express services, some as far as Peterlee and even Middlesbrough in the past. It used that inter urban mix to its advantage when it bought the likes of Wilts and Dorset, Oxford, Brighton, and the recent acquisitions in east Anglia.

Nevertheless, both started off with experience of running long distance and rural operations. When you consider Badgerline started off that way, with the only urban operation it had being in Bath, you'd have thought that the experience of running Western National would've helped with areas like the Potteries, and even when you consider GRT actually owned Midland Bluebird, SMT, and Lowland, the latter a very rural operation, it's amazing that it couldn't get the mix right. Then again, GRT was a citybus operator, but owned Midland Bluebird for a few years before expanding more.

So given the fact GRT initially bought Northampton, isn't it amazing that an urban operation went? As Ive already said, in most cases, the parts of Firstgroup that weren't doing well were the ex GRT bits. Livingston, Lowland, Midland Bluebird, Northampton, and bits of United counties.

The only ex Badgerline bits not doing well were Western National, and Potteries. The former has turned a corner for the better, and other ex Badgerline bits are steadily improving; Bristol, south wales, and I'm told parts of Essex.

Makes you wonder what would've happened if Badgerline and GRT had never merged?

I think you meant Eastern Counties not United Counties

I don't know if we can draw so much from the territories and history as such. The main urban areas were PTE and they were later sales and usually to MBO/part ESOP entities.

However, the question of how the businesses were managed as Badgerline and GRT is very appropriate. Badgerline was very much like Stagecoach in its outlook with empowered staff but a strong core of central support. Hence a very standardised if basic spec fleet. However, managers could get on and manage.

It was GRT where you could see some flash purchases and the skimping of investment in equal measure. The line I heard from a former First employee was that Trevor Smallwood thought it was a merger but then realised as Moir moved his men in that it was really a reverse takeover!!!

 

[overthewater]

That's an interesting comment about vehicle specs above. I don't think the public realise that a new First bus is anything special internally. Stagey Gold and Arriva Sapphire both look a cut above on the outside. First "standard" doesn't.

I postage something about this from 1997 Buses foces about how First was streets ahead in bus spec, Double glaze windows etc. There not changed their minds on this aspect.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I postage something about this from 1997 Buses foces about how First was streets ahead in bus spec, Double glaze windows etc. There not changed their minds on this aspect.

Well, partially....

The 1997 First was when the first B10BLEs were due and it was all about double glazing etc and other stuff you didn't see in terms of corrosion protection. However, I remember the GRT Scanias (?) delivered to Lowland with air-con. For Gala to Berwick? Crazy

The modern day stuff is really a lot less extensive - free wifi is almost ubiquitous but Stagecoach market it as special

 

[Andyh82]

I postage something about this from 1997 Buses foces about how First was streets ahead in bus spec, Double glaze windows etc. There not changed their minds on this aspect.

When the corporate livery and spec first came out on the Royales and B10BLEs it was much higher quality than had been seen before, double glazed bonded glazing, individual seats etc, and rolled out GRT branding like Gold Service.

At the time Stagecoach still had their old livery and specified buses with old bench style seats and a 1990s grey stripy seat pattern.

Arriva were not much better, also using bench seating and a dated interior design.

 

[overthewater]

Well, partially....

The 1997 First was when the first B10BLEs were due and it was all about double glazing etc and other stuff you didn't see in terms of corrosion protection. However, I remember the GRT Scanias (?) delivered to Lowland with air-con. For Gala to Berwick? Crazy

The modern day stuff is really a lot less extensive - free wifi is almost ubiquitous but Stagecoach market it as special

Wasn't there alot of fleet swapping, because a few had, the awful hard urban 90 seats? I have to agree with you the No60/67 does not need those types of buses. Because of that the fuel bills with certain First group fleets must have been costly. Why on earth were First buying mainly 44 seater Scanias for town services. Stagecoach on the other hand went for darts for most town services.

 

[tbtc]

I postage something about this from 1997 Buses foces about how First was streets ahead in bus spec, Double glaze windows etc. There not changed their minds on this aspect.

The 1997 First was when the first B10BLEs were due and it was all about double glazing etc and other stuff you didn't see in terms of corrosion protection

I remember First seemed streets ahead twenty years ago - they seemed to have a much better quality product - low floor buses featuring individual seats with corporate moquette (and corporate branding on things like poles) - when Stagecoach still have the generic grey/orange patterned bench seats (well before the "beachball" seats).

First were the future, with their Darts and B10BLEs - Stagecoach seemed to be stockpiling high floor B10Ms.

How times change!

free wifi is almost ubiquitous but Stagecoach market it as special

what is Gold standard on a new Stagecoach bus is actually just standard on a new First bus.

That's an interesting comment about vehicle specs above. I don't think the public realise that a new First bus is anything special internally. Stagey Gold and Arriva Sapphire both look a cut above on the outside. First "standard" doesn't.

One oddity with First is that they indiscriminately applied their pale pastel livery to *anything* - R-reg B10BLEs in Sheffield were some of the first to have it applied - rather than restricting it to "best" vehicles (remember that Stagecoach didn't paint old buses into "beachball" when it was introduced - they were kept in "stripes")...

...so they've made no fuss over the new higher internal standards - First had a whole separate livery for "low floor" but the "wifi and leather seats" buses get the same treatment as the "fifteen year old" ones.

Maybe it says more about Stagecoach's market research that they think it's better to advertise this "premium" product on a few selected routes, rather than *everywhere*?

It does seem strange to see First pass up an opportunity to introduce yet another separate livery (given all of the ones they've had - e.g. hybrid vehicles).

Where there is a lower economic activity, bus patronage usually falls too

True, but Stagecoach don't seem to be having the same struggles in some of the economically deprived places that they operate - I was in Barnsley a couple of weeks ago and the fleet there is as modern and well presented as any tow.

The Stagecoach operations in Hull/ south wales Valleys etc don't have the same cutbacks/ instability that we've seen in First's Potteries operations.

In many of the areas where car ownership was lowest and bus use would've been higher, the arrival of an Aldi or Lidl has removed the need for bus travel, let alone short hops

It's only going back to where we were a few years ago, when people shopped in the local Co-op (before they moved to the Tesco hypermarket then started shopping at the new local discount supermarket).

If people are doing more "little and often" shopping trips with baskets (rather than trollies) then that should encourage bus use - you might need a car to make the most of a hypermarket but I've just done a Lidl shop tonight (and got the Stagecoach Gold X17 home with my couple of carrier bags - no car required).

Aldi/ Lidl should be seen as an opportunity for bus operators - e.g. they are generally on/near main roads (rather than stuck away on ring roads where the nearest bus stop is separated from the entrance by half a mile of car parks).

 

[overthewater]

I remember First seemed streets ahead twenty years ago - they seemed to have a much better quality product - low floor buses featuring individual seats with corporate moquette (and corporate branding on things like poles) - when Stagecoach still have the generic grey/orange patterned bench seats (well before the "beachball" seats).

First were the future, with their Darts and B10BLEs - Stagecoach seemed to be stockpiling high floor B10Ms.

How times change!

Stagecoach stuck fast with its B10M instead of making a mad rush to low floor buses, I think it paid off for them in the long run. 1996/97 there started with the cheaper end of the market Ie darts etc before moving to single deckers in 98/99

True, but Stagecoach don't seem to be having the same struggles in some of the economically deprived places that they operate - I was in Barnsley a couple of weeks ago and the fleet there is as modern and well presented as any tow.

The Stagecoach operations in Hull/ south wales Valleys etc don't have the same cutbacks/ instability that we've seen in First's Potteries operations.

Lets be fair here Stagecoach does have some back areas, Scunthorpe, There is plans for new big housing estates, but the town centre is dire while there are now four other shopping outlets, plus the steel works is on a knife edge.
I believe the other is up in North east somewhere?

It's only going back to where we were a few years ago, when people shopped in the local Co-op (before they moved to the Tesco hypermarket then started shopping at the new local discount supermarket).

Aldi/ Lidl should be seen as an opportunity for bus operators - e.g. they are generally on/near main roads (rather than stuck away on ring roads where the nearest bus stop is separated from the entrance by half a mile of car parks).

Stagecoach has done that in Kirkcaldy reroute two routes to operate Aldi, every 10mins with a bus stop just meters from the front door. Seems to doing alright. Same town there have a bus every 10min to Big Asda again always passengers. Glenrothes is also like this now. Falkirk's Lidi just across the road from the bus station and the B&M.

It does pay off.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Round about 97 or so First looked like a real class act. The standard interior came first a few months before the corporate livery. Very professionally done but then it took absolutely yonks before it was truly nationwide so the impact was restricted.

I don't understand why there was so much difficulty in the proper amount of fleet investment, its hardly the biggest cost to a bus operation on a per annum basis. I also wonder how much money is wasted in rotating buses around the country, the fleet must be 10% bigger than it needs to be what with the endless cascades and inevitable downtime while depots get the inherited buses up to scratch.

Stagecoach are of course equally guilty of this though they do accomplish it with rather more finesse.

 

[DunsBus]

Wasn't there alot of fleet swapping, because a few had, the awful hard urban 90 seats? I have to agree with you the No60/67 does not need those types of buses. Because of that the fuel bills with certain First group fleets must have been costly. Why on earth were First buying mainly 44 seater Scanias for town services. Stagecoach on the other hand went for darts for most town services.

The reason for Lowland receiving the two Scania/Wrights featuring double-glazing and aircon in 1995 was because they had recently had their contract for the Galashiels-Duns-Berwick service, the 60, renewed by the local authority. The terms of the contract stipulated the use of new buses on the service. GRT had placed an order for 10 Scania/Wrights to Advance SE spec (hence the aircon and double glazing) for delivery to Midland Bluebird during 1995 and diverted two of them to Lowland to allow the 60 to be upgraded.
They were certainly very fast buses but the aircon fell out of use after a year. A downside was their rather poor legroom.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Is First Potteries still managed, and shown on the First Manchester Operators licence?

First Potteries is owned by First North West Ltd, itself owned by First Bus North Ltd, finally ultimate ownership is First Group PLC.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The reason for Lowland receiving the two Scania/Wrights featuring double-glazing and aircon in 1995 was because they had recently had their contract for the Galashiels-Duns-Berwick service, the 60, renewed by the local authority. The terms of the contract stipulated the use of new buses on the service. GRT had placed an order for 10 Scania/Wrights to Advance SE spec (hence the aircon and double glazing) for delivery to Midland Bluebird during 1995 and diverted two of them to Lowland to allow the 60 to be upgraded.
They were certainly very fast buses but the aircon fell out of use after a year. A downside was their rather poor legroom.

Knew you'd know. I know that the tender was based on new vehicles but I still maintain that it was overkill to have that spec. Arguably, it was overkill for Midland Bluebird!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't understand why there was so much difficulty in the proper amount of fleet investment, its hardly the biggest cost to a bus operation on a per annum basis. I also wonder how much money is wasted in rotating buses around the country, the fleet must be 10% bigger than it needs to be what with the endless cascades and inevitable downtime while depots get the inherited buses up to scratch.

Stagecoach are of course equally guilty of this though they do accomplish it with rather more finesse.

Hmmm.... ordering 500 new vehicles as an outright purchase (rather than leasing) requires a lot of upfront capital. Something that was in short supply after the Laidlaw purchase!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Hmmm.... ordering 500 new vehicles as an outright purchase (rather than leasing) requires a lot of upfront capital. Something that was in short supply after the Laidlaw purchase!

I'm not familiar with the details of that specific purchase. But, if the 500 buses were purchased, for cash, then that substantial asset could then be borrowed against. The financiers would look at the turnover for the company to see if the interest payments could be afforded and lend accordingly. All is fine until there is any kind of downturn in the business and the repayments can no longer be afforded. Or in First's case, the bus companies and rail franchises were seen as cash-cows with a steady, high, cash income stream against which money could be borrowed. Lose a franchise and all of a sudden there isn't the cash-flow to fund the debt repayments / interest.

That is the problem we face as a society overall, on a personal, business or national government level. Too much debt, not enough income to afford the repayments. Look at all the highly levered buyouts which end in tears - or with the 'bank' taking control of the company in return for cancelling debt. Hotel chains, Pubco's, football clubs. The list is long.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm not familiar with the details of that specific purchase. But, if the 500 buses were purchased, for cash, then that substantial asset could then be borrowed against. The financiers would look at the turnover for the company to see if the interest payments could be afforded and lend accordingly. All is fine until there is any kind of downturn in the business and the repayments can no longer be afforded. Or in First's case, the bus companies and rail franchises were seen as cash-cows with a steady, high, cash income stream against which money could be borrowed. Lose a franchise and all of a sudden there isn't the cash-flow to fund the debt repayments / interest.

That is the problem we face as a society overall, on a personal, business or national government level. Too much debt, not enough income to afford the repayments. Look at all the highly levered buyouts which end in tears - or with the 'bank' taking control of the company in return for cancelling debt. Hotel chains, Pubco's, football clubs. The list is long.

And I think you've hit the nail on the head there with First's purchase of Laidlaw. Over leveraged, no room to manoeuvre. In fact, the purchase was largely based on selling Greyhound as part of the deal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...as-been-haunted-by-a-deal-agreed-in-2007.html

As is rather coldly stated - “UK bus is nothing to do with Laidlaw – except for the fact that it requires investment and the state of the balance sheet impinged on the management’s ability to make that investment.” - Not a fundamentally bad business but it was treated as a cash cow. As the adage therefore goes, if you don't feed the cow, yields will fall and eventually it will die.

 

[winston270twm]

First Potteries is owned by First North West Ltd, itself owned by First Bus North Ltd, finally ultimate ownership is First Group PLC.

First Potteries is a separate entity though i.e. First Potteries Limited registered address is Chelmsford, Essex the same as for Worcester & Leicester & is managed by Niggle Eggleton as part of First Midlands.

First Manchester, First North West Ltd both have Oldham as registered address

 

[Robertj21a]

First Potteries is owned by First North West Ltd, itself owned by First Bus North Ltd, finally ultimate ownership is First Group PLC.

Since when ?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Since when ?

Which bit when?

First Potteries first appeared as a wholly owned subsidiary of First North West in the accounts year ending 31 Mar 2003.

Interesting really because the other companies Mr Eggleton is responsible for point the other way to First Bus South Ltd.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

First Potteries is a separate entity though i.e. First Potteries Limited registered address is Chelmsford, Essex the same as for Worcester & Leicester & is managed by Niggle Eggleton as part of First Midlands.

First Manchester, First North West Ltd both have Oldham as registered address

I only quote what the official accounts state. They have been signed off by the management and the accountants and the auditors. I presume they know what they're doing.

Then again, a Scottish company was operating on a different licence to it's accounts quite recently!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any chance of you quoting the margins of all the Uk bus subsidiaries?

Can't work out how to insert a table, sorry!

All figures in £,000

Turnover Costs Profit Percentage
First Northern Ireland Ltd £ 3,202 £ 3,768 -£ 566 -17.68%
First South Yorkshire Ltd £ 66,135 £ 68,960 -£ 2,825 -4.27%
First Potteries Ltd £ 20,645 £ 21,752 -£ 1,107 -5.36%
First Manchester Ltd £ 89,935 £ 89,190 £ 745 0.83%
First Aberden Ltd £ 30,624 £ 26,396 £ 4,228 13.81%
First Scotland East Ltd £ 13,366 £ 15,050 -£ 1,684 -12.60%
First Glasgow no1 Ltd £ 85,112 £ 78,057 £ 7,055 8.29%
First Glasgow no2 Ltd £ 42,679 £ 37,864 £ 4,815 11.28%
First York Ltd £14,495 £15,655 -£ 1,160 -8.00%
First West Yorkshire Ltd £ 132,040 £ 117,403 £ 14,637 11.09%
Midland Bluebird Ltd £ 29,901 £ 29,697 £ 204 0.68%
First Beeline Buses Ltd £ 19,892 £ 18,406 £ 1,486 7.47%
First Essex Buses Ltd £ 51,828 £ 49,194 £ 2,634 5.08%
First Cymru Buses Ltd £ 38,127 £ 34,621 £ 3,506 9.20%
First Eastern Counties Buses Ltd £ 33,697 £ 33,081 £ 616 1.83%
First Games Transport Ltd £ 8,063 £ 6,732 £ 1,331 16.51%
First Midland Red Buses Ltd £ 10,655 £ 10,170 £ 485 4.55%
First Somerset & Avon Ltd £ 33,699 £ 35,012 -£ 1,313 -3.90%
First Bristol Ltd £ 50,459 £ 44,726 £ 5,733 11.36%
Leicester Citybus Ltd (94%) £ 16,177 £ 13,789 £ 2,388 14.76%
First Hampshire & Dorset Ltd £ 43,360 £ 40,049 £ 3,311 7.64%
First South West Ltd (was Devon & Cornwall) £ 30,632 £ 39,477 -£ 8,845 -28.88%

 

[winston270twm]

Which bit when?

First Potteries first appeared as a wholly owned subsidiary of First North West in the accounts year ending 31 Mar 2003.

Interesting really because the other companies Mr Eggleton is responsible for point the other way to First Bus South Ltd.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I only quote what the official accounts state. They have been signed off by the management and the accountants and the auditors. I presume they know what they're doing.

Then again, a Scottish company was operating on a different licence to it's accounts quite recently!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Can't work out how to insert a table, sorry!

All figures in £,000

Turnover Costs Profit Percentage
First Northern Ireland Ltd £ 3,202 £ 3,768 -£ 566 -17.68%
First South Yorkshire Ltd £ 66,135 £ 68,960 -£ 2,825 -4.27%
First Potteries Ltd £ 20,645 £ 21,752 -£ 1,107 -5.36%
First Manchester Ltd £ 89,935 £ 89,190 £ 745 0.83%
First Scotland East Ltd £ 13,366 £ 15,050 -£ 1,684 -12.60%
First York Ltd £14,495 £15,655 -£ 1,160 -8.00%
Midland Bluebird Ltd £ 29,901 £ 29,697 £ 204 0.68%
First Eastern Counties Buses Ltd £ 33,697 £ 33,081 £ 616 1.83%
First Somerset & Avon Ltd £ 33,699 £ 35,012 -£ 1,313 -3.90%
First South West Ltd (was Devon & Cornwall) £ 30,632 £ 39,477 -£ 8,845 -28.88%

Baxdenbank,

You are quite right, just spotted that names of holding companies you quote on the very last page of each individual subsidiaries accounts. Although First Potteries is owned on paper by First North West Limited, I suspect this is how the groups ownership is structured as part of First UK Bus. Despite different ownership of the 3 First Midlands operating companies Potteries still actually managed from Chelmsford, Essex as per Worcester & Leicester and per their registered address.

My other question is why an earth are First Manchester barely breaking even? It's a large urban former PTE operation, it should be making 10% margins, it see's plenty of investment.

Also why is First York making an 8% loss?

First South Yorkshire loss making, I understand they face quite a bit of competition from Stagecoach, but it's a big former PTE op / Urban Area / High Student population etc

Taking out the better performing subsidiaries making 4.55% profit & above, there are still a large number of operating companies making heavy losses, What are First doing so wrong in these areas?

 

[overthewater]

Im not surprised with York. Anyways with Manchester remember there had brought over a company and have to managed to combine the two operates etc, while competing against stagecoach and Arriva.

I dare say we will see an improve with this years accounts. A big question still surround First Glasgow, could the 3 week of the Commenwealth games really resulted in the 10 % profit or has Glasgow really turned a Conner.

 

[winston270twm]

Im not surprised with York. Anyways with Manchester remember there had brought over a company and have to managed to combine the two operates etc, while competing against stagecoach and Arriva.

I dare say we will see an improve with this years accounts. A big question still surround First Glasgow, could the 3 week of the Commenwealth games really resulted in the 10 % profit or has Glasgow really turned a Conner.

Finglands was only a 50 vehicle op and First only really compete with Stagecoach on former Finglands corridors. I don't think First really compete much with Arriva, most big Manchester independents have either gone or have been taken over, there's not that much competition these days other than between the big groups. The remaining independents generally stick to TfGM tendered services.

York again has a high student population & large Park & Ride contracts

 

[Stan Drews]

Don't forget that in Manchester they bought a bit of a basket case, which has significant competition on a very low fare corridor, they flooded it with brand new buses, and extended that competition to even more routes/areas.
It is hardly surprising that such a change has significantly impacted on the profitability!
I believe Stagecoach are in a similar position with their Manchester business.

 

[winston270twm]

Don't forget that in Manchester they bought a bit of a basket case, which has significant competition on a very low fare corridor, they flooded it with brand new buses, and extended that competition to even more routes/areas.
It is hardly surprising that such a change has significantly impacted on the profitability!
I believe Stagecoach are in a similar position with their Manchester business.

So why bother buying 'a bit of a basket case' they have enough of their own already. It's not like buying it blocked Stagecoach from having Finglands, I'm sure the competition authorities would of had something to say about that.

Stagecoach Manchester are making very healthy profits, even though they have fallen since 2014:

to 30th April 2015

Turnover: £107.9 Million (£105.4 Million 2014)
Operating Profit £17.9 Million (£22.5 Million 2014)
Pre-tax profit £18.3 Million (£26.2 Million 2014)

 

[Surreyman]

Firstly many thanks to Baxenden Bank for the figures.
Have re-arranged to list by turnover.
Turnover Costs Profit Percentage
First West Yorkshire Lt £ 132,040 £ 117,403 £ 14,637 11.09%
First Manchester Ltd £ 89,935 £ 89,190 £ 745 0.83%
First Glasgow no1 Ltd £ 85,112 £ 78,057 £ 7,055 8.29%
First South Yorkshire Ltd £ 66,135 £ 68,960 -£ 2,825 -4.27% Loss
First Essex Buses Ltd £ 51,828 £ 49,194 £ 2,634 5.08%
First Bristol Ltd £ 50,459 £ 44,726 £ 5,733 11.36%
First Hampshire & Dorset £ 43,360 £ 40,049 £ 3,311 7.64%
First Glasgow no2 Ltd £ 42,679 £ 37,864 £ 4,815 11.28%
First Cymru Buses Ltd £ 38,127 £ 34,621 £ 3,506 9.20%
First Somerset & Avon £ 33,699 £ 35,012 -£ 1,313 -3.90% Loss
First Eastern Counties £ 33,697 £ 33,081 £ 616 1.83%
First South West Ltd £ 30,632 £ 39,477 -£ 8,845 -28.88% Loss
First Aberdeen Ltd £ 30,624 £ 26,396 £ 4,228 13.81%
Midland Bluebird Ltd £ 29,901 £ 29,697 £ 204 0.68%
First Potteries Ltd £ 20,645 £ 21,752 -£ 1,107 -5.36% Loss
First Beeline Buses Ltd £ 19,892 £ 18,406 £ 1,486 7.47%
Leicester Citybus Ltd £ 16,177 £ 13,789 £ 2,388 14.76%
First York Ltd £14,495 £15,655 -£ 1,160 -8.00% Loss
First Scotland East Ltd £ 13,366 £ 15,050 -£ 1,684 -12.60%Loss First Midland Red Buses £ 10,655 £ 10,170 £ 485 4.55%


First Northern Ireland Ltd £ 3,202 £ 3,768 -£ 566 -17.68% Loss


First Games Transport £ 8,063 £ 6,732 £ 1,331 16.51%


I assume the Dublin operation is excluded.
Is the First Northern Ireland operation just Coaches?

5 operations making 10% or more.
6 operations making between 5 & 10%
3 operations making between 0.5 & 5%
6 operations making a loss.
Depot closures have taken place during the course of these accounts, so the position is probably healthier than these figures suggest.
Like others I am surprised at South Yorkshire & York being amongst the loss makers & Manchester making only 0.83%.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

I think First Northern Ireland is Just the Dublin to Belfast route? i'm not aware of anything else in NI? Also oddly most of the Coaches have English plates

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So why bother buying 'a bit of a basket case' they have enough of their own already. It's not like buying it blocked Stagecoach from having Finglands, I'm sure the competition authorities would of had something to say about that.

Stagecoach Manchester are making very healthy profits, even though they have fallen since 2014:

to 30th April 2015

Turnover: £107.9 Million (£105.4 Million 2014)
Operating Profit £17.9 Million (£22.5 Million 2014)
Pre-tax profit £18.3 Million (£26.2 Million 2014)

There's some curious issues around the First Manchester figures. Like the uplift in the headcount (107 staff) but a £4.5m hike in staff costs. Part of that will be annual pay settlement but still a bit odd.

There may be some one off costs associated with the Finglands purchase that are shown within the P&L too? And why buy? Perhaps it might be a tactical counterweight to Stagecoach's increasing presence in North Manchester with the Bluebird purchase?

 

[winston270twm]

There's some curious issues around the First Manchester figures. Like the uplift in the headcount (107 staff) but a £4.5m hike in staff costs. Part of that will be annual pay settlement but still a bit odd.

There may be some one off costs associated with the Finglands purchase that are shown within the P&L too? And why buy? Perhaps it might be a tactical counterweight to Stagecoach's increasing presence in North Manchester with the Bluebird purchase?

The uplift in staff numbers will no doubt be attributed to be the ex Finglands staff coming on board, but it's still a large hike.

Manchester (28th March 2015) figures were as follows:

Turnover £89.9 Million (£83.6 Million 2014)
Operating profit £745k (£90k loss 2014)
Pre-tax profit £3.7 Million (£2.2 Million 2014)

The only reason Manchester made a approx 4% pre-tax profit in 2015 & a lessor profit in 2014 was on interest payments received or similar charges of £2.968 Million (£2.306 Million)

The majority of all Stagecoach Manchester's profits are purely operating profits with minimal income/finance charges

 

[83G/84D]

FirstGroup celebrates the best of the best at awards ceremonies
29 Jan 2016
Vital contributions of the 110,000 FirstGroup employees who help get over 2.5 billion passengers around the world where they need to be recognised at awards ceremonies.
The inaugural Be First Awards, held during the last two weeks in Manchester, UK and Philadelphia, USA, celebrate and recognise people and teams who have made significant contributions to FirstGroup’s businesses and customers in the last 12 months.
The winners of the Awards are people who have made an exceptional effort to deliver the company’s vision, strategy and values in their behaviour and actions.
Hundreds of nominations were received from across FirstGroup’s businesses. A select group of winners were lauded at the ceremonies for their contributions, in areas such as safety, customer service, community relations and service delivery and innovation.
For example, Adrian Worsfold of First Bus Greater Manchester has driven performance, developed his team and maintained and improved First Bus’s service at a time of massive external disruption to Manchester City Centre. He was a worthy winner of an “Accountable for Performance” award.
Adrian commented:
“It was a huge honour to be recognised in the inaugural Be First awards - with so many great individuals and teams across FirstGroup, I was slightly overwhelmed to have been a finalist. To have your hard work recognised in this way has inspired me to want to do even more.”
Tim O’Toole, Chief Executive of FirstGroup, said:
“The winners of the Be First Awards represent the true strength of our company - the 110,000 people who work for us, sharing their knowledge and expertise across our businesses in the UK and North America, keeping our customers at the heart of everything we do. We’ve recognised them not only for individual achievements, but for their consistent efforts to deliver great service and improve performance every day.”
For every completed nomination, FirstGroup also donated £5 to the company’s UK Charity of Choice partner, Prostate Cancer UK, resulting in a donation of £1700. In addition, FirstGroup donated over £8000 to charities chosen by the winning individuals and teams.
James Beeby, Director of Fundraising at Prostate Cancer UK, said:
“It’s fantastic to see that so many of our FirstGroup friends are getting rewarded for their top class service. This dedication and passion is also something the staff has shown towards raising awareness and funds for Prostate Cancer UK throughout the last couple of years. With their support, the charity’s Men United army continues to fight prostate cancer and help more men survive prostate cancer and enjoy a better quality of life. Well done to everyone that entered and the winners.”

Full list of awards and winners:
Delivering Our Vision Awards:
• Keeping People Moving – Individual – (joint winners) Ian Rowlands and Geraint Llewellyn, Great Western Railway – Ian and Geraint have been giving up their own time for the past four years to educate local children on the dangers of playing on or near railway tracks.
• Keeping People Moving – Individual – Roberto Gutierrez, Greyhound - Over two years Roberto visited more than 50 bus terminals throughout the US with a simple goal: learn what the customer really wants. Talking first hand with customers and becoming one himself, he travelled in every type of service available, learning what was needed and what was good for business. His work helped design new Greyhound services for Mexico.
• Keeping People Moving – Team – The Cross Connect Team, First Bus Greater Manchester – This team successfully identified and plugged a gap in Greater Manchester’s bus provision by joining together north and south Manchester’s services, making journeys easier for thousands of people every day.
• Keeping People Moving – Team – CTTransit, First Transit – The CTTransit team launched CT fastrak, a $560m bus rapid transit line. Thanks to their management, service and operations planning prowess, the launch was an outstanding success.
• Keeping Communities Prospering – Individual – Jon Mitchell, Driver, First Bus York – Jon made a valuable contribution as the public face of First buses in York, building up contacts in the community and helping at public events – helping the company to build better relationships with local people.
• Keeping Communities Prospering – Individual – Linda Bowar, First Student – When Linda learned of a student on her bus who could not afford a coat in the harsh Minnesota winters, she organised a community coat drive, and distributed coats to families in need.
• Keeping Communities Prospering – Team – Scunthorpe Station Team, First Transpennine Express – This small, dedicated team works closely together to provide a friendly, welcoming station for customers, raise money for local charities and make their station a hub of local community activity – while maintaining very high customer satisfaction scores.
• Keeping Communities Prospering – Team – Cornwall location – Ontario, Canada, First Student – The team collected more than £5600 for Children’s Miracle Network as part of an ongoing company-wide commitment to the charity, which raises funds for children’s hospitals throughout North America.
Delivering Our Strategy Awards:
• Combining Expertise – Team – Weymouth Depot Team, First Bus Wessex - The team at Weymouth Depot and its sub stations as Bridport and Yeovil have turned their business into a highlight motivated, effective operation by harnessing existing talent to improve both performance and image.
• Combining Expertise – Team – Clean Up Team, First Transit – This conscientious, hard-working team can always be relied upon to pitch in to help keep services running smoothly, displaying an excellent attitude to customers.
• Spreading Best Practice – Team – SAP Business Intelligence Team, First Rail – This small, dynamic team has created innovative technology and solutions to solve all manner of data analysis and reporting problems across the Group.
• Spreading Best Practice – Team – North America Applicant Tracking System Pilot Team, FirstGroup – The team identified a recruitment tracking system that was in use in the UK, and introduced it to FirstGroup’s US operations, reducing recruitment costs and improving staffing levels.
Committed to Our Customers Awards:
• Individual – Daniel Graham, Driver, First Bus South Yorkshire – Daniel, a recent recruit at First Bus, has earned an impressive reputation with customers and colleagues. ‘Mr Smiley’ as he’s known, regularly receives glowing commendations from customers, and reflect his overwhelmingly positive attitude and enthusiasm for his job.
• Individual – Shonna Hawes, Greyhound – Shonna works in the Greyhound customer service office in New York, assisting customers with a huge variety of needs. She goes above and beyond the call of duty to ensure customers never walk away dissatisfied – handling and solving tough issues every day.
• Team – The Management and Support Team, First Bus Kernow – Over just one weekend in March 2015, this dynamic team worked with Cornwall Council to plan and deliver a whole new bus network ready for local people to use on Monday morning, following the financial collapse of one of the local competitors.
• Team – Business Development Team – Technical Editors and Proposal Managers, First Transit – This team is completely focused on the customer opportunity, having a direct impact on First Transit’s customers. The team innately understands what the customer expects – delivering technical proposals that win business.
Dedicated to Safety Awards:
• Individual – Gary McGinley, First Bus Glasgow – Team player Gary’s relentless approach to safety has helped change the safety culture in the workshops at Caledonia Bus Depot for the better.
• Individual – Daniel P. Kelly, First Transit – Responsible for four First Transit locations, Dan’s expertise is widely known and respected – he takes safety to heart and has a role in the wider community as a FEMA planning manager and emergency response instructor.
• Team – Safety Team, First Hull Trains – The team introduced ‘Detective Handswell’ to First Hull Trains’ passengers. The intrepid animated detective is on posters and signs aboard all First Hull Trains services, informing customers about potential hazards, such as sliding doors between carriages, flip top bins or boarding and alighting trains.
• Team – The Safety Team at Louisville, Kentucky, First Transit – This proactive team has started many safety initiatives of their own – setting high standards for safety, creating accountability for safe pick-ups, and demonstrating our commitments to safety and customers
Supportive of Each Other Awards:
• Individual - Jazz Terry, First Bus West Yorkshire – Jazz has delivered far more than is expected of her role as a Trainee Network Officer. Thanks to her extremely positive, can-do attitude she has arranged successful detailed talks with drivers and supervisors and union meetings to introduce route, duty and rota changes that have improved customers’ experiences, and made the jobs of drivers easier at the same time.
• Individual - Val Hartwell, First Student – Val has taken a leadership role in improving safety in First Student’s Canadian operations, with a steadfast dedication and a supportive and constructive working style.
• Team - First Shared Services Team, FirstGroup – First Shared Services has put its people first, and as a result made the team a great place to work. Using Investors in People as a framework to deliver high performance and job satisfaction amongst its employees.
• Team - Wichita Driving Management Online Team, First Transit – The team worked hard to make sure all of their drivers were qualified for the new school year, ensuring the continuation of a smooth service for Wichita students.
Accountable for Performance Awards:
• Individual – Adrian Worsfold, First Greater Manchester – Adrian leads from the front with a calm collaborative approach. He has driven performance, developed his team and maintained and improved the service at a time of massive external disruption to Manchester City Centre.
• Individual – Reggie Garrett, First Student - From his first days at First Student, Senior Location Manager Reggie has always sought to hold himself and his team accountable for performance. He strives to be the best leader, the best service provider to his customers, the cheerleader for his team and one of the most committed and loyal location managers in First Student.
• Team – Scotstoun Traffic and Engineering Team, First Bus Glasgow – The team has improved service performance by a staggering amount, by taking “lost mileage” or buses not out on the roads personally. A fierce determination to keep performance as high as possible has led to issues being pre-empted and solved in advance, maintaining reliable services for customers.
Setting the Highest Standards Awards:
• Individual – William Wood, First Bus Glasgow – As Glasgow depot operations manager, he maintains effective relationships with 600 drivers and 17 staff. Ex-driver William goes above and beyond, constantly demonstrating the best way of doing things and operating an open door policy meaning colleagues are not afraid to raise issues.
• Individual – Sherri Cole, First Student – Sherri’s 27 years of experience are matched only by her energy and enthusiasm – her school transportation knowledge and professionalism are beyond reproach, and she commands the attention and respect not only of employees, but the California Highway Patrol and California Department of Education.
• Team – Laira Maintenance Depot, Great Western Railway – Following the Dawlish sea wall collapse in February 2014, the team from Laira maintenance depot, together with over 300 volunteers, carried out vital examinations and repairs within four days.
• Team – Maintenance Leadership Team, First Transit – This team introduced eLearning to improve their training programme, resulting in Maintenance managers who are increasingly engaged in professional development and share that learning with colleagues.
About FirstGroup plc:
FirstGroup plc is the leading transport operator in the UK and North America and our services help to create strong, vibrant and sustainable local economies. During the last year around 2.4 billion people relied on us to get to work, to education, to visit family and friends and much more and, each day, every one of our 110,000 employees works hard to deliver vitally important services for our passengers.


Source:- http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2016/29-01-2016.aspx

 

[Andyh82]

Could York be making a loss because they paid too much to retain the Park and Ride contract? If so, could it get worse when more recent accounts are factored in after they probably did the same to gain the uni contract?

Alternatively, First York a couple of years ago became part of SY rather than WY as they were traditionally. Could some SY overheads have been disproportionately been allocated to York to reduce losses at SY?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Firstly many thanks to Baxenden Bank for the figures.

Glad to be of service. There are other odds and ends, such as the winding down of various sold London operations, Northampton etc., but I think I caught all the main ones - assuming the PLC and group accounts, which list each subsidiary owned, are complete.

I assume the Dublin operation is excluded.

Yes, it is listed as First Passive Ltd. There is also a holding company Aeorporto Ltd (might be misspelt but that's how it's listed). I haven't looked if the Republic has public access to company accounts.

Is the First Northern Ireland operation just Coaches?

Just the Belfast - Dublin route.

The interesting company name is Nicecon Ltd - 50% owned each by Stagecoach and First.