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First Group: General Discussion

WatcherZero

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winston270twm

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Sounds as though it's going to be an even longer haul for First Group to recover now, will up uphill struggle to replace lost revenue & reduce debt with a substantially reduced Rail Division/reduced cash generation. It doesn't however suggest that they would need to sell anything sizable off, but equally they can't afford for much else to go wrong:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32392734-7a38-11e4-9b34-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3LFq9Sr6O
 

Volvodart

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In the past, there has often been bad news from the US in these situations, we will see if their luck has changed now.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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In the past, there has often been bad news from the US in these situations, we will see if their luck has changed now.

Usually First Student - there's only so many freak weather occurences that you can blame
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Mmm, last half yearly says similar £9.9m before tax in the first 6 months of the year, £3.1m after tax.

Statutory H1 2014, H1 2013 restated

- Operating profit £80.2m £90.6m (11.5)%

- Profit/(loss) before tax £9.9m £(8.0)m n/m

- Attributable profit/(loss) £3.1m £(1.1)m n/m

- EPS 0.3p (0.1)p n/m

Net debt £1,403.2m £1,446.8m (3.0)%

http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/first_group/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=858&newsid=455354

In fairness, you did originally say last year, and then posted this year's half yearly profits!

Last years' profits were £58.5m
 

WatcherZero

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The first website was being slow so the regulatory filing was all that I could get off it at the time of looking and it is the latest results. Yes full year 2013/14 is indeed £58.5m though the year before was -£28.9m so swings and roundabouts.
 

317 forever

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There has been speculation of First winding down their Plymouth-area operations. I wonder whether this is any more likely since Go-Ahead took over Liskeard-area operations from Western Greyhound, thus strenthening their grip of the Plymouth area? Also Stagecoach may like route 93, as this ventures east of Plymouth.
 

Rich McLean

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There has been speculation of First winding down their Plymouth-area operations. I wonder whether this is any more likely since Go-Ahead took over Liskeard-area operations from Western Greyhound, thus strenthening their grip of the Plymouth area? Also Stagecoach may like route 93, as this ventures east of Plymouth.

Unless Stagecoach had a outstation in Plymouth or Dartmouth, operating the 93 would prove difficult, and lots of dead mileage. I agree however, this would be best placed under the Stagecoach Gold brand if it were to happen.

As for first winding down, they haven't canned any services in a while.

First also know that Go-Ahead would now find it a challenge to up the mileage in Plymouth, as of late, they have already been pushing PVR on a lot of routes back to the bare bones and had their fingers burnt on many occasions, especially having the Tavistock route on PVR 4, and had to up it to PVR 5 and interwork it with the Tamerton service, with the PVR also increasing on that as a result.

To do this, they have reduced the frequency on other routes, including the 5 and 5/A on Saturdays, reducing the combined frequency from every 10 to every 15 mins, as well as changing the PVR on the 43 at weekends to balance it out during the week.

When the DDA Deadline comes in, a big scale cut back is likely for First. PCB have lots of older SLF Darts running around, many of which don't currently meet DDA. To combat this, they are fitting ramps onto the Darts which don't have them.

Things will carry on for now, until the next financial year, when a review is carried out, and PCB may then look at upping the mileage along with a re-org of the Go Cornwall Bus operation, possibly freeing up mileage and PVR for a new service in Plymouth.

If PCB target Mountbatten & Hooe with a XCity service to the North of the City (Southway via Derriford Hospital) then this may well then put another nail in First Plymouth coffin, as the 2 is a lucrative route.
 
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overthewater

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The accounts of First Scotland East have yet to be uploaded to company house. Every year the accounts get published later and the financial picture get worse. To be fair none of the accounts of First Glasgow have appeared either.

Nearly all the English accounts seem to be up.
 

Volvodart

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As always they have up to 31 December to lodge the accounts. None of the Scottish registered companies are up. It is always possible that they have been lodged and Companies House is not up to date.
 

overthewater

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It's that time of year again, the accounts have at least been placed on "Company House" website. What does everyone think? The later the accounts appear gives us a very good clue.

NOTE: There is nothing wrong posting this type of information, its all above broad. The rules etc was explained the last time.


GOOD NEWS:
First Scotland East: Covers Muss and Livingston depot:

The companies turnover was down £1/2 milllion, its operating cost are down £2 million, but its losses were still around £2'346'000. Thanks to Tax credits etc the company only made a loss of £433'000.

BAD NEWS
Midland Bluebird, Covers Larbart, Stirling, Balfron and Scottish border area.

The companies turnover was down £2 milllion, its operating cost are also down £2 million, but its losses were still around £671'000. With no asset to sell off to write off the losses made, along with some other stuff I'm not sure about the company ended up making a loss of £1'846'000.

So on the whole the company has failed to once again make any money and is in fact hoovering money up to cover its black hole.

One has to wonder how healthy the other First companies are doing ie Cornwall?
 

GaryMcEwan

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Is Parkhead short on deckers? For the past few days I've seen a couple of Scotstoun deckers (One E400 and a Volvo TransBus President - Ex London 03 plate) on the 60/A...

Had to do a double take when I saw the E400 on it...
 
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Strathclyder

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Is Parkhead short on deckers? For the past few days I've seen a couple of Scotstoun deckers (One E400 and a Volvo TransBus President - Ex London 03 plate) on the 60/A...

Had to do a double take when I saw the E400 on it...
An E300 appeared on the 60 on the 29th December:


Not as unusual as a E400, though. Was it one of the hybrids?
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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It's that time of year again, the accounts have at least been placed on "Company House" website. What does everyone think? The later the accounts appear gives us a very good clue.

NOTE: There is nothing wrong posting this type of information, its all above broad. The rules etc was explained the last time.


GOOD NEWS:
First Scotland East: Covers Muss and Livingston depot:

The companies turnover was down £1/2 milllion, its operating cost are down £2 million, but its losses were still around £2'346'000. Thanks to Tax credits etc the company only made a loss of £433'000.

BAD NEWS
Midland Bluebird, Covers Larbart, Stirling, Balfron and Scottish border area.

The companies turnover was down £2 milllion, its operating cost are also down £2 million, but its losses were still around £671'000. With no asset to sell off to write off the losses made, along with some other stuff I'm not sure about the company ended up making a loss of £1'846'000.

So on the whole the company has failed to once again make any money and is in fact hoovering money up to cover its black hole.

One has to wonder how healthy the other First companies are doing ie Cornwall?

Interesting snippet on FBBs public transport experience blog - he states (and he is reasonably well connected) that Go Ahead in Plymouth are RUMOURED to be loss making following Plymouth bus war V3.

The general perception (without knowledge of any actual financials) of First DCS is that Kernow is very modestly in the black, Devon probably in the red despite a business model where depreciation is minimal. As for Somerset, who knows. How Webberbus are surviving, Lord knows.
 

overthewater

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The accounts for Somerset were uploaded, on 7 November, I suspect the company has at least broke even.
 

mbonwick

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It's that time of year again, the accounts have at least been placed on "Company House" website. What does everyone think? The later the accounts appear gives us a very good clue.

NOTE: There is nothing wrong posting this type of information, its all above broad. The rules etc was explained the last time.


GOOD NEWS:
First Scotland East: Covers Muss and Livingston depot:

The companies turnover was down £1/2 milllion, its operating cost are down £2 million, but its losses were still around £2'346'000. Thanks to Tax credits etc the company only made a loss of £433'000.

BAD NEWS
Midland Bluebird, Covers Larbart, Stirling, Balfron and Scottish border area.

The companies turnover was down £2 milllion, its operating cost are also down £2 million, but its losses were still around £671'000. With no asset to sell off to write off the losses made, along with some other stuff I'm not sure about the company ended up making a loss of £1'846'000.

So on the whole the company has failed to once again make any money and is in fact hoovering money up to cover its black hole.

One has to wonder how healthy the other First companies are doing ie Cornwall?

Any chance we can get a look at the actual accounts rather than just a summary?
 

Robertj21a

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Interesting snippet on FBBs public transport experience blog - he states (and he is reasonably well connected) that Go Ahead in Plymouth are RUMOURED to be loss making following Plymouth bus war V3.

The general perception (without knowledge of any actual financials) of First DCS is that Kernow is very modestly in the black, Devon probably in the red despite a business model where depreciation is minimal. As for Somerset, who knows. How Webberbus are surviving, Lord knows.

So, not surprisingly, both GoAhead and First are losing money in Devon. That's what will happen if 2 of the 'Big 4' operators go up against each other - both suffer until one blinks. Presumably, it will be First who blink before too long.
 

robertclark125

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The recent problems with FSE don't seem to reflect well upon the change of attitude towards having more local decisions made. Once again, it should be mentioned that the South Queensferry to Edinburgh service no longer operates under its banner.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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So, not surprisingly, both GoAhead and First are losing money in Devon. That's what will happen if 2 of the 'Big 4' operators go up against each other - both suffer until one blinks. Presumably, it will be First who blink before too long.

Don't know if it will. The First operations are run with a fleet that is largely depreciated - think there's half a dozen B7Ls, 3 e400s, about 15 Tridents from 2002-5 and perhaps the odd Solo. The newer Darts are now being sent to Kernow whilst the newest fleet (9 e400s) now work around Falmouth.

Hence most of Plymouths operations are run by elderly B6s, Darts, Solos and Tridents (and the odd Olym) with little book value. Meanwhile PCB have a modern and expensive fleet and must be hurting on their competitive services.
 

Rich McLean

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Don't know if it will. The First operations are run with a fleet that is largely depreciated - think there's half a dozen B7Ls, 3 e400s, about 15 Tridents from 2002-5 and perhaps the odd Solo. The newer Darts are now being sent to Kernow whilst the newest fleet (9 e400s) now work around Falmouth.

Hence most of Plymouths operations are run by elderly B6s, Darts, Solos and Tridents (and the odd Olym) with little book value. Meanwhile PCB have a modern and expensive fleet and must be hurting on their competitive services.

PCB have a fair few old darts as well. Oldest being R Reg since the N Reg darts have been withdrawn
 

TheGrandWazoo

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PCB have a fair few old darts as well. Oldest being R Reg since the N Reg darts have been withdrawn

Yes but that's just part of a regular age profile. PCB have a much higher level of depreciation and that's evident on the Tavistock corridor - First T/W reg Trident from 1999/2000 that's probably fully depreciated vs. a PCB Eclipse or E400 that's no more than 2.5 years old.

It's an interesting clash of strategy and we'll see what happens. Certainly First in Plymouth must be one of the oldest fleets going.
 

Rich McLean

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Yes but that's just part of a regular age profile. PCB have a much higher level of depreciation and that's evident on the Tavistock corridor - First T/W reg Trident from 1999/2000 that's probably fully depreciated vs. a PCB Eclipse or E400 that's no more than 2.5 years old.

It's an interesting clash of strategy and we'll see what happens. Certainly First in Plymouth must be one of the oldest fleets going.

Well it will be fun with PCC go ahead with their Low Emissions Zone plan for the City Centre...........
 

mbonwick

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Having seen the full accounts submission for First Scotland East/Midland Bluebird, I have to say that the situation there looks to be getting worse rather than better.

As has already been pointed out, losses are mounting rapidly - and this years loss is despite cost saving measures being implemented. Further £8m worth of vehicles have been disposed of, with the cost of replacements at just £5m.

Having showed the document to someone who works in accounting (cainebj), he questioned how FSE/Midland Bluebird could realistically be seen as a going concern, except with the massive support from FirstGroup HQ. Even then he was dubious that such losses would be tolerated.

I do wonder personally whether First are loading Midland Bluebird with liabilities etc with a view to selling it off, while Scotland East Ltd is wound down.
 

Busaholic

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Interesting snippet on FBBs public transport experience blog - he states (and he is reasonably well connected) that Go Ahead in Plymouth are RUMOURED to be loss making following Plymouth bus war V3.

The general perception (without knowledge of any actual financials) of First DCS is that Kernow is very modestly in the black, Devon probably in the red despite a business model where depreciation is minimal. As for Somerset, who knows. How Webberbus are surviving, Lord knows.

The Plymouth bus wars of the early 1990s were damaging for both Western National (First's predecessor) and then-council-owned Citybus. They showed there were no easy pickings to be had and it was best for each company to concentrate on their own traditional areas. The city cries out for a tram system, just like Bristol does, and is equally unlikely to get one.
 

Sandy Drew

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First Devon & Cornwall have improved op losses from £5.8m to £3.6m, so improving.

But there are a few First businesses can no longer...
Glasgow No1, Glasgow No2, Midland Bluebird & Scotland East figs still to be posted.

The only other 2 could find were...

Somerset & Avon: £1.8m op loss last year to £335k op profit this year
York: £367k op loss last year to £528k op loss this year

Will keep checking.
 

overthewater

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First Devon & Cornwall have improved op losses from £5.8m to £3.6m, so improving.

But there are a few First businesses can no longer...
Glasgow No1, Glasgow No2, Midland Bluebird & Scotland East figs still to be posted.
.


I did post the figures:

First Scotland East: Covers Muss and Livingston depot:
Turnover down £1/2 milllion, its operating cost are down £2 million,
losses were still around £2'346'000, but thanks to Tax credits etc the company only made a loss of £433'000.

Midland Bluebird, Covers Larbart, Stirling, Balfron and Scottish border.
Turnover was down £2 milllion, its operating cost are also down £2 million, but its losses were still around £671'000. Along with some other stuff I'm not sure about the company ended up making a loss of £1'846'000.
 

overthewater

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So what further changes can we expect come 1st April? Or more likely Monday 4 April, when Scotrail controlls finaly disappear from FSE. More cuts? fare overhaul?
 

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