First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Interest: http://www.route-one.net/issues/525/pubData/source/routeone525.pdf

P31/32: Interview with Chris Rogers about First.

 

[overthewater]

Im now hearing it will be April, when Service No43 will be chopped.

 

[DunsBus]

Im now hearing it will be April, when Service No43 will be chopped.

That sounds about right as the notice period is 56 days, assuming that the notification goes in now then the 43 will stop running in mid-April. Probably even sooner if First manage to get it cancelled at short notice.

I would suspect, though, that the Livingston Geminis will start to be transferred out before then, with cascaded stock taking their place on the 43 for the final few weeks of operation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interest: http://www.route-one.net/issues/525/pubData/source/routeone525.pdf

P31/32: Interview with Chris Rogers about First.

Finally had chance to read it. Very interesting.

As I've said before, First was a business (in terms of UK bus) that lost its way badly between 2005 and 2010/1. Since Giles came in, and then started to bolster the management team, it's been a long old slog. In this digital age, we are used to the immediacy of results. Of course, it takes a long time to undo the years of centralised diktats and underinvestment, and as the article says, there is always a time lag between things happening and people believing that change has been cemented.

During 2014/5, I think we'll see the momentum of change grow further, helped by the clearing out of more elderly kit. I also suspect that you'll see new vehicles entering fleets that have hitherto either had nothing or very little except GBF funded stuff. Granted, I think it'll be a while til Somerset or FDC gets anything new, and the powerhouses will rightly get the lions' share. They'll naturally be some reverses and I concede that the Lothian and Plymouth areas are the ones that stick out to me.

However, I think only the most churlish of people will still maintain that it's the same old First.

 

[robertclark125]

I have to say, if the rebranding of the Somerset operations is anything to go by, perhaps it won't be the same old First, but a more locally based First.

Remember, First did away with local fleetnames, which more or less gave a hint to the Aberdeen based structure of the business. Now that Giles has came in, this action in Somerset will be watched carefully, and no doubt as local managers regain some powers, they'll want to do the same thing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have to say, if the rebranding of the Somerset operations is anything to go by, perhaps it won't be the same old First, but a more locally based First.

Remember, First did away with local fleetnames, which more or less gave a hint to the Aberdeen based structure of the business. Now that Giles has came in, this action in Somerset will be watched carefully, and no doubt as local managers regain some powers, they'll want to do the same thing.

It's already here though I don't think you'll see anything as mould breaking as Somerset which left the First name behind. In truth, the new livery brought local fleetnames though some were a bit less local e.g. West of England, than they should've been.

However, the decentralisation of the business has undoubtedly led to more freedom for local managers. Now, once you do that, you do rely on the quality of the local management and quite a few perhaps weren't up to the job. That's not to denigrate them and many were good operators but it's a leap from that to having people who can really effect change.

Instead, they've had to go out, recruit the right people (who are often in a job with 3-6 month notice periods that they have to work), get them in and allow them to plan, and then execute the plan. That's why in some places, like Midlands, it's taken longer than somewhere like Hampshire where Marc Reddy was already in situ.

 

[Surreyman]

Finally had chance to read it. Very interesting.

As I've said before, First was a business (in terms of UK bus) that lost its way badly between 2005 and 2010/1. Since Giles came in, and then started to bolster the management team, it's been a long old slog. In this digital age, we are used to the immediacy of results. Of course, it takes a long time to undo the years of centralised diktats and underinvestment, and as the article says, there is always a time lag between things happening and people believing that change has been cemented.

During 2014/5, I think we'll see the momentum of change grow further, helped by the clearing out of more elderly kit. I also suspect that you'll see new vehicles entering fleets that have hitherto either had nothing or very little except GBF funded stuff. Granted, I think it'll be a while til Somerset or FDC gets anything new, and the powerhouses will rightly get the lions' share. They'll naturally be some reverses and I concede that the Lothian and Plymouth areas are the ones that stick out to me.

However, I think only the most churlish of people will still maintain that it's the same old First.

Well I am one of those churlish people but I pretty much agree with all your conclusions/predictions.
Still hoping for a scale down in Lothian & Plymouth and no, I don't see any other operator being remotely interested in acquiring Firsts Devon & Cornwall operations.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well I am one of those churlish people but I pretty much agree with all your conclusions/predictions.
Still hoping for a scale down in Lothian & Plymouth and no, I don't see any other operator being remotely interested in acquiring Firsts Devon & Cornwall operations.

My view has always to judge on what is actually happening. When Moir was in charge, it was awful. Now Giles is sorting stuff out, I want them to do well.

Also, it's very easy to say "I hate First" but there's long serving staff (from managers, admin and supervisors to drivers, fitters and cleaners) who's livelihood could be in doubt. Take somewhere like Plymouth. If First pulled the plug, where do those people go? Drivers might get alternative jobs but will that be with PCB or someone like Target at a lower rate and with poorer pensions? And what about the other staff - where do they go?

I don't know how Plymouth will turn out but might be a case of First toughing it out with PCB and see who blinks first. Historically, that's always been First but perhaps there's a view that they can't let it happen so bolster the Tavi and Torpoint with newer kit, and then inflict some pain on the city routes and see if PCB get bored first?

 

[overthewater]

The Super tanker: UK bus has turned around and is heading for sunnier shores, but as mentioned, The Lothians & Plymouth are following behide in a dingy. It would be a shame if first did pull the plug but many other industries and companies have had the same fate, and out of the ashes newer and better companies always appear. To be fair Falkirk and Stirling still has a fair bit of work needed.
When it comes to Somerset, it needed something radical, alone with the belief it was worth saving.

Maybe by 2015 the public will start to believe, First bus has improved overall.

 

[Robertj21a]

My view has always to judge on what is actually happening. When Moir was in charge, it was awful. Now Giles is sorting stuff out, I want them to do well.

Also, it's very easy to say "I hate First" but there's long serving staff (from managers, admin and supervisors to drivers, fitters and cleaners) who's livelihood could be in doubt. Take somewhere like Plymouth. If First pulled the plug, where do those people go? Drivers might get alternative jobs but will that be with PCB or someone like Target at a lower rate and with poorer pensions? And what about the other staff - where do they go?

I don't know how Plymouth will turn out but might be a case of First toughing it out with PCB and see who blinks first. Historically, that's always been First but perhaps there's a view that they can't let it happen so bolster the Tavi and Torpoint with newer kit, and then inflict some pain on the city routes and see if PCB get bored first?

I reckon PCB, under GoAhead, will want to end up the top dog - however it's done. First on the other hand are probably already resigned to it being a possible addition to Barnstaple, Northampton, Redditch, FSE etc

Robert

 

[Surreyman]

My view has always to judge on what is actually happening. When Moir was in charge, it was awful. Now Giles is sorting stuff out, I want them to do well.

Also, it's very easy to say "I hate First" but there's long serving staff (from managers, admin and supervisors to drivers, fitters and cleaners) who's livelihood could be in doubt. Take somewhere like Plymouth. If First pulled the plug, where do those people go? Drivers might get alternative jobs but will that be with PCB or someone like Target at a lower rate and with poorer pensions? And what about the other staff - where do they go?

I don't know how Plymouth will turn out but might be a case of First toughing it out with PCB and see who blinks first. Historically, that's always been First but perhaps there's a view that they can't let it happen so bolster the Tavi and Torpoint with newer kit, and then inflict some pain on the city routes and see if PCB get bored first?

You make a fair point about the staff but business economics always wins in the end.
There are many locations in the UK where there is room for more than one operator, often this is this is a 'not directly competing' scenario, or in a few cases there is enough critical mass to sustain a truly competitive market (something the Oft/CC fantasises about).
First (in the form of Western National) was always the 'out of town operator,' out of necessity, (declining rural market) they have moved into Plymouth & therefore directly into competition with PCB, thereby setting up a long slow bus war of attrition, they could aim for an unspoken agreement - we will operate in this area/route network and you operate in that (the Oft/CC would of course be down on them like a ton of bricks if any such agreement could be proved).
I don't know the numbers (maybe there is enough business to support 2 operators?) if not and assuming First are not willing to commit huge resources and investment, then I don't see that First has a future in Plymouth in its present size and form.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You make a fair point about the staff but business economics always wins in the end.
There are many locations in the UK where there is room for more than one operator, often this is this is a 'not directly competing' scenario, or in a few cases there is enough critical mass to sustain a truly competitive market (something the Oft/CC fantasises about).
First (in the form of Western National) was always the 'out of town operator,' out of necessity, (declining rural market) they have moved into Plymouth & therefore directly into competition with PCB, thereby setting up a long slow bus war of attrition, they could aim for an unspoken agreement - we will operate in this area/route network and you operate in that (the Oft/CC would of course be down on them like a ton of bricks if any such agreement could be proved).
I don't know the numbers (maybe there is enough business to support 2 operators?) if not and assuming First are not willing to commit huge resources and investment, then I don't see that First has a future in Plymouth in its present size and form.

Not quite as simple as you point out. In the regulated days, and in common with many towns, Western National operated a proportion of city services under a joint services agreement. Think it reflected post war housing developments that were often built just outside the town or city boundary. Hence WN was the operator in certain areas of the city, and certainly out to places like Saltash and Devonport; the latter may be the other side of the bridge but it ain't in the sticks.

Around 1988 was the first Plymouth bus war with lots of elderly deckers and a handful of new Lynxes appearing for WN, alongside a fleet of PCB Dodge minibuses. After a few years, that died down and the status quo returned. Similarly, a few years ago, First started the second war with Ugobus to destabilise PCB in the hope that they could either buy or at least get a foothold. The rapid sale to Go Ahead and First's inability to compete meant that many of the competitive services were chopped.

Cut to the third instalment and now Go Ahead are trying to bounce First out by competing on their main routes, as First were reported to have engaged with parties in a sale from which they (the other parties) then walked away from. PCB may have been an interested party, or they decided that rather than allow someone else to buy, they'd launch a pre-emptive. They had success with Ivybridge route but Tavistock and Torpoint were the main targets. As well as bolstering the Tavi service with 18 month old Enviros, First have retaliated with city routes at very low fares. Initial observations from those on the ground is that these services (operated with depreciated kit) are hurting PCB but as with all bus wars, both operators feel the pain. The question is whether First will allow such a high profile attack to succeed (open season on First) or not, or to batten down the hatches, hurt PCB and see what comes out in the wash. The results of the Cornwall Council tenders next month may well be a factor though.

The interesting part was the surrender of the X80/81 service to Stagecoach without a shot in anger. In fact, First passes (Scholars ones) were accepted by Stagecoach after First pulled out. All distinctly sensible....and quite chummy? A bit like the South Queensferry episode now happening, and I may well be wrong and First could be petrified of Souter and Co, but it smacks of a deal somewhere

 

[Blindtraveler]

Afraid youl have to put me into the churlish catigory too as I see no light at the end of the tunnel for UK Bus. If they bow out now and concentrate on rail which they do well then there reputation will be a good one once more. As things stand though the overall impression given is of multiple stables of dead or dying horses, all being flogged to the last. Not a good look and even Joh Public can see that!↲

 

[Surreyman]

Cut to the third instalment and now Go Ahead are trying to bounce First out by competing on their main routes, as First were reported to have engaged with parties in a sale from which they (the other parties) then walked away from. PCB may have been an interested party, or they decided that rather than allow someone else to buy, they'd launch a pre-emptive. They had success with Ivybridge route but Tavistock and Torpoint were the main targets. As well as bolstering the Tavi service with 18 month old Enviros, First have retaliated with city routes at very low fares. Initial observations from those on the ground is that these services (operated with depreciated kit) are hurting PCB but as with all bus wars, both operators feel the pain. The question is whether First will allow such a high profile attack to succeed (open season on First) or not, or to batten down the hatches, hurt PCB and see what comes out in the wash. The results of the Cornwall Council tenders next month may well be a factor though.

The interesting part was the surrender of the X80/81 service to Stagecoach without a shot in anger. In fact, First passes (Scholars ones) were accepted by Stagecoach after First pulled out. All distinctly sensible....and quite chummy? A bit like the South Queensferry episode now happening, and I may well be wrong and First could be petrified of Souter and Co, but it smacks of a deal somewhere

It's difficult to get inside or second guess the 'Corporate Mindset' but I can't help thinking that Go Ahead, having acquired and then invested in PCB, can only view First as an aggressive competitor determined to go head to head on 'their' territory (I Know that in the modern era 'territories' or perhaps I should say 'geographical spheres of influence' shouldn't exist but most operators think this way even if only at a subconscious level).
First on the other hand, acquired their operation as part of a large package, many years ago and have seen it decline over time, not helped by their own management policies during the ML era.
Now that First UK Bus are re-inventing themselves, there has to be time when HO may have to say, 'Ok, we have re-organized the Devon business but it still shows no sign of making the sort of return we have set as a target and we cannot see it doing so in future'.
I suppose it does not rule out an unofficial truce whereby First D&C might scale their network back and PCB do the same, reducing direct competition down to a minimum(Probably illegal, cartels etc etc).
I think you are right on the mark with Stagecoach, I suspect the nod & the wink across the table was of the 'We are going to register the Torbay -Plymouth route but we are not interested in expanding further west etc'
What a shame that Ipswich didn't sell out to GA!

 

[overthewater]

Afraid youl have to put me into the churlish catigory too as I see no light at the end of the tunnel for UK Bus. If they bow out now and concentrate on rail which they do well then there reputation will be a good one once more. As things stand though the overall impression given is of multiple stables of dead or dying horses, all being flogged to the last. Not a good look and even Joh Public can see that!↲

To be fair, its understandable since, First in the Lothian has not seen that much improvements let alone the new livery.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Afraid youl have to put me into the churlish catigory too as I see no light at the end of the tunnel for UK Bus. If they bow out now and concentrate on rail which they do well then there reputation will be a good one once more. As things stand though the overall impression given is of multiple stables of dead or dying horses, all being flogged to the last. Not a good look and even Joh Public can see that!↲

Your moniker is certainly true. You must be blind if you can't see how things are changing at First. Granted, it's more pronounced in some areas than others (for the reasons I said) but I can't believe that people can't see things are changing although as the article says, a lot of it is putting the fundamentals right and that's not glamorous and often not immediately apparent. There are none so blind as those who do WISH to see

Take as a random and average example, First Cymru. That was typical First subsidiary, treated as a cash cow. From it's Badgerline-owned days, it had benefited from a steady intake of new vehicles (mainly Darts). In the last 10 years, following a reasonable number of new Darts in 2003, it had received some FTR (!) vehicles, a handful of MPDs and Darts, some cascaded Enviros and Eclipses. However, much of the fleet was aged P-X reg Darts, some native and some ex London Marshall junk.

It's now received or getting 60 or so new vehicles with the first new vehicles for the eastern area for donkeys. It may be losing the Cardiff P&R but has gained the Airport service and a short term contract for the Carmarthen service. That and a number of service enhancements and improvements.

Go to some areas, you'll see more evidence of the change (e.g. Bristol) and elsewhere less (e.g. Wyvern). I can understand why people are cynical and the ridiculous way that Moir ran the business into the ground based on hubris and self promotion was truly awful. However, that was then and that cannot be undone. What they are doing now is what's important, and whilst there will be the odd reverse, the truth is that they have some very good areas (e.g. Manchester, Leeds), some weak (e.g. Cornwall) and some that can be real diamonds if they get the right people in the role and invest (e.g. Potteries, Wyvern).

 

[Robertj21a]

Grand Wazoo - a very good, and fair, summary of the current First Group situation.

Hopefully, Giles can now see a (small) light at the end of a (lengthy) tunnel.

Robert

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Grand Wazoo - a very good, and fair, summary of the current First Group situation.

Hopefully, Giles can now see a (small) light at the end of a (lengthy) tunnel.

Robert

I always liken it to watching some huge Danish bloke on World's Strongest Man doing the truck pull. The hardest bit is getting the thing moving.... The early results are good in Leeds and Manchester but it will be a long clamber to get to double digit levels.

When I recall what Eastern Scottish was like, and now you see how they've been cleared out of mid-Lothian and looking grim elsewhere, you can only shake your head and wonder how they managed to cock it up so comprehensively.

 

[Robertj21a]

I always liken it to watching some huge Danish bloke on World's Strongest Man doing the truck pull. The hardest bit is getting the thing moving.... The early results are good in Leeds and Manchester but it will be a long clamber to get to double digit levels.

When I recall what Eastern Scottish was like, and now you see how they've been cleared out of mid-Lothian and looking grim elsewhere, you can only shake your head and wonder how they managed to cock it up so comprehensively.

.
Sorry to say it but Moir has a lot to answer for. What a terrible shame that nobody stood up against some of his sillier ideas - what were the Directors doing ?

Robert

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

.
Sorry to say it but Moir has a lot to answer for. What a terrible shame that nobody stood up against some of his sillier ideas - what were the Directors doing ?

Robert

I know journalists who interviewed Moir. Apparently very charismatic but be assured, he was a fearsome person.

The line I heard when Firstbus was formed was that it was a takeover by GRT...just that Trevor Smallwood didn't realise it at the time!!

 

[overthewater]

And of course, being charismatic he was able to charm his way with many people. Saying that, since he has disappeared from the public view, he doesn't seem to care about all this bad press against him. You would think he would try and rebuff all the complaints that have since happened?

Did Moir have any say in his replacements and how the company has been overhauled?

Eastern Scottish; downfall started in 1985 when it was reorganised, and lost Monkland and the Border areas, which left it with just Livingston, Westfield and Dalkieth, not sure if Muss was included or if that went to Lowland.

 

[Robertj21a]

I know journalists who interviewed Moir. Apparently very charismatic but be assured, he was a fearsome person.

The line I heard when Firstbus was formed was that it was a takeover by GRT...just that Trevor Smallwood didn't realise it at the time!!

Yes, I met him briefly. It still doesn't excuse the Directors of a PLC for not questioning, in depth, the path they were following. It's not as if others hadn't seen the wide gap opening up between the Lockhead vs Souter approach to business. Many shareholders have lost their personal fortunes as a result of the crash in the FGP share price.

 

[Deerfold]

I always liken it to watching some huge Danish bloke on World's Strongest Man doing the truck pull. The hardest bit is getting the thing moving.... The early results are good in Leeds and Manchester but it will be a long clamber to get to double digit levels.

I keep seeing people commenting on how much Leeds is improving.

I found the main problem on what used to be my local routes in Calderdale being that First seemed to focus on the high profile routes in Leeds and Huddersfield and we got whatever rubbish was left.

Even the "big routes" in Halifax like the 503 and 576 used to have big relaunches with route-branded new buses, but a few months later the new buses seemed have drifted away and any old thing was used on these routes.

They also had a habit of giving up routes completely rather than focussing on profitable parts of it or trying to build the service up (502 (Keighley - Halifax), 503 (Bradford-Thorton-Halifax), 562 (Oldham - Halifax)). It seemed odd to go from a commercial hourly service all day to nothing in one step.

I'll be catching a few around Calderdale next month - I hope to see improvements but I'm not hopeful (I used to be a big fan of the company but haven't been impressed by them for quite a while).

 

[david16]

.
Sorry to say it but Moir has a lot to answer for. What a terrible shame that nobody stood up against some of his sillier ideas - what were the Directors doing ?

Robert

He isn't called Sir Moir Blockhead for nothing.

 

[robertclark125]

The contrast between the way Stagecoach worked with new vehicle orders, and the way First does, is eyeopening sometimes. A recent example is here in Fife, where Stagecoach East Scotland were successful with a bid to group for new Solo SR's, 7 of them, for routes that are tendered. It's also interesting to note that in 1 case, a tendered route had its sunday frequency doubled to hourly, but that's the way Stagecoach works.

Perhaps management at Larbert ought to take a risk and try and bid for new vehicles for a tendered route, and see what happens.

 

[Stan Drews]

It's also interesting to note that in 1 case, a tendered route had its sunday frequency doubled to hourly, but that's the way Stagecoach works.

Err, wouldn't that be down to the tendering authority?

 

[DunsBus]

And of course, being charismatic he was able to charm his way with many people. Saying that, since he has disappeared from the public view, he doesn't seem to care about all this bad press against him. You would think he would try and rebuff all the complaints that have since happened?

Did Moir have any say in his replacements and how the company has been overhauled?

Eastern Scottish; downfall started in 1985 when it was reorganised, and lost Monkland and the Border areas, which left it with just Livingston, Westfield and Dalkieth, not sure if Muss was included or if that went to Lowland.

Musselburgh depot stayed with Eastern Scottish in the 1985 reorganisation. The depots which went to other SBG companies were:

Airdrie - Central

Ballieston - closed March 1985, vehicles transferred to Midland Scottish at Stepps and thence to Kelvin

Berwick, Dunbar, Galashiels, Hawick, Jedburgh, Kelso, North Berwick, Peebles - Lowland. The depots at Jedburgh and North Berwick were outstations of Hawick and Dunbar respectively. Berwick depot closed in 1995 soon after the GRT takeover, with vehicles based there then being classed under Kelso's allocation, while Dunbar depot was closed following Lowland's takeover of Ian Glass, Haddington in 1991 with Haddington then being used as Lowland's East Lothian base although Dunbar continued to be used for overnight parking until 1993.

Linlithgow - Midland

Eastern retained the depots at Edinburgh (New Street), Dalkeith, Livingston and Musselburgh.

Following the split of the Eastern Scottish area in 1996 the depots at Livngston, Centrex and Westfield passed to Midland Bluebird while Lowland took over the depots at Dalkeith and Musselburgh. Centrex was opened as an overspill base for Livingston prior to the split while Westfield replaced New Street as Eastern's Edinburgh base in 1992.

 

[robertclark125]

I go back and reiterate my initial point. If you look at the pre merger areas, the ones that have done badly have all been ex GRT. Yes, I know Bristol and Halifax have had issues, but look at the pre merger areas, Northampton has closed, Lowland has been scaled back, SMT has also been scaled back, with Livingston now struggling, Midland Bluebird has lost a couple of contracts to Stagecoach and has had a few meetings with the Traffic Commissioner, Leicester has seen a slowdown in investment, though it hasn't always been bad, and Eastern Counties may well be trying to compete with Ipswich Buses, but it too has seen areas hived off, with parts going to Norfolk Green, and Bury St Edmunds depot closed, though the X1 is doing well.

Now, look at the pre merger Badgerline group areas. Well, Llanelli depot of South Wales has closed, and Rock Ferry and Chester depots of what was PMT have gone to Stagecoach. Western National has also scaled back, but this was mainly due to council tendering, and this occurred in First days.

Post merger areas have seen Barnstaple close with Stagecoach coming in, Wigan go to Stagecoach, and London sold.

When the GRT bus group existed, Moir Lockhead was the boss. It's therefore interesting that the ex GRT areas are the ones to have suffered most under the Firstbus regime. The ex Badgerline group areas have only encountered problems since the "merger" with GRT.

I'm not 100% sure, but was the Firstbus style regime in use when GRT group existed, i.e. limited decisions by local management, or did it happen after the merger?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Musselburgh depot stayed with Eastern Scottish in the 1985 reorganisation. The depots which went to other SBG companies were:

Airdrie - Central

Ballieston - closed March 1985, vehicles transferred to Midland Scottish at Stepps and thence to Kelvin

Berwick, Dunbar, Galashiels, Hawick, Jedburgh, Kelso, North Berwick, Peebles - Lowland. The depots at Jedburgh and North Berwick were outstations of Hawick and Dunbar respectively. Berwick depot closed in 1995 soon after the GRT takeover, with vehicles based there then being classed under Kelso's allocation, while Dunbar depot was closed following Lowland's takeover of Ian Glass, Haddington in 1991 with Haddington then being used as Lowland's East Lothian base although Dunbar continued to be used for overnight parking until 1993.

Linithgow - Midland

Eastern retained the depots at Edinburgh (New Street), Dalkeith, Livingston and Musselburgh.

Following the split of the Eastern Scottish area in 1996 the depots at Livngston, Centrex and Westfield passed to Midland Bluebird while Lowland took over the depots at Dalkeith and Musselburgh. Centrex was opened as an overspill base for Livingston prior to the split while Westfield replaced New Street as Eastern's Edinburgh base in 1992.

I think, and DunsBus may well be able to confirm, but even in its' SMT existence, it was the second most profitable operation in the SBG at privatisation (after Fife) so it's not a consequence of the 1985 changes but down to mismanagement by First

 

[oldman]

I think, and DunsBus may well be able to confirm, but even in its' SMT existence, it was the second most profitable operation in the SBG at privatisation (after Fife) so it's not a consequence of the 1985 changes but down to mismanagement by First

Maybe mismanagement, but it also had to contend with Lothian. Lothian started to compete within a 10 mile radius of the city centre with lower fares at a modest additional PVR. I guess the shorter routes around Edinburgh like Balerno and Midlothian were among the more profitable for SMT. Later Lothian introduced the flat fare which was very generous to the longer distance passengers who were SMT's mainstay.

SMT put on the Sprinter network within the city. I don't know how profitable it was, but the fact that such midibus services do not survive in other cities suggests it was not. Once Lothian had the only full network in town, they were guaranteed to get the heavy bus users to themselves.

There was the brief bus war some ten years ago, but First didn't persist and once that was done, it was only a matter of time. I remember in the late 2000's wondering why First were keeping on competing services, often with inferior vehicles, with no hope of success, so you could say mismanagement consisted of not being more radical sooner.

I cannot comment on West Lothian, but I imagine the reopening of the Bathgate rail line did not help.