First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

'scuse my ignorance, but what revisions did First make in/around Glasgow since the big changes in the summer?

Very minor changes, along with a load of new journeys to/from depots.

Further changes should be on the cards for next year, ie Games as a new house estate has been built, and First Glasgow No2 will need further work at some point, but the main city network is working fine.

I'm not disgruntled or irritated but just being direct. You're wondering why no mention of what they're doing in the interim results and then drawing spurious conclusions. They just aren't going to go into that sort of detail so it's not a sign, good or bad.

If I was first, and wanted to impress the inverters I would mention FSE, If since last years awful results highlighted improvements including moving back into the black or clearing its debts etc.

I appreciate that you like to speculate and the lack of clear evidence coming from FSE is frustrating for you. However, you don't work for First (I assume?) so don't know what is being communicated or not, nor are you in the inner sanctum of Larbert. I'm sure they have a plan but perhaps don't wish to publicise it. I'm assuming that in the short term, it'll be more cascades before some new vehicles appear; perhaps tied in with CG work next year.

I do know people that work for the company, and bar the depot transformations nothing else has really happened. Larbart has been told to get on with it, but with very little investment etc and trying as hard as there can, not much can be done, especial within the current lack of investment and Scotrail. Did it come out one of the depot managers walked?

If a plan does exist, I would want publicise it, and promote and highlight all the wonderful work. Its not like plymouth or Northampton where vultures are waiting in the wing to grab something, it more like the polo opposite.
Its not so much about new stock, but everything in general. A fare reduction of the same level as Manchester or Glasgow etc has not happened either, expect for reduced returns fares for part of the X38.

I disagreed with your back to square one comment, and you've admitted that they're not going back to the old network so it isn't back to square one. They've made changes, some weren't successful so they're making some further changes and tweaks. It happens when you do a big network overhaul....happened in both Portsmouth and Southampton. There are no guarantees when you make large fundamental changes, and the worst thing you can do is not to admit when you get it wrong; at least First put their hands up.

The network is not the problem, Nor is it the fares: Glasgow only has two single fares and has also reduced its weekly tickets.

Something else is at play, which means it is back to square one has there don't know what the problems is.

Why is people in Glasgow not flooding back to the bus network? congestion still happens and plenty of jobs etc.. so why aren't people switching over? the lack of new passengers is not down to higher unemployment.

It more down to the fact, first has a VERY bad public image around the central belt, and first needs to deal with this head on, as proven new buses, fare reductions and a better network does nothing, if the public still hates the company.

Maybe a phone call to Saatchi and Saatchi is needed.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Very minor changes, along with a load of new journeys to/from depots.

These journeys though are very poorly advertised and usually run dead anyway, pretty sure First have just introduced these so that they can claim the fuel rebate instead of running it dead out of service to the depot...

 

[winston270twm]

If I was first, and wanted to impress the inverters I would mention FSE, If since last years awful results highlighted improvements including moving back into the black or clearing its debts etc.

Investors & analysts aren't interested in individual operating subsidiary's performance; they will only be looking at the overall picture/trend from the UK bus division and First Group's performance as a whole and namely whether the decline in profits is starting to reverse......

They are also looking for signs of a dividend being re-instated

 

[34D]

These journeys though are very poorly advertised and usually run dead anyway, pretty sure First have just introduced these so that they can claim the fuel rebate instead of running it dead out of service to the depot...

They would get the same rebate for an empty run that goes to start a service elsewhere.

 

[overthewater]

They would get the same rebate for an empty run that goes to start a service elsewhere.

Not in Scotland, dead runs get no rebates anymore.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

They would get the same rebate for an empty run that goes to start a service elsewhere.

Not up here they dont, so in effect First are quite cleverly cheating the Scottish Government out of money...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not up here they dont, so in effect First are quite cleverly cheating the Scottish Government out of money...

Cheating? Really? As for time in memoriam, they're registering placement journeys. As in any industry, they're maximising their revenue. It's hardly like Google or Starbucks, is it?
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Very minor changes, along with a load of new journeys to/from depots.

Further changes should be on the cards for next year, ie Games as a new house estate has been built, and First Glasgow No2 will need further work at some point, but the main city network is working fine.



If I was first, and wanted to impress the inverters I would mention FSE, If since last years awful results highlighted improvements including moving back into the black or clearing its debts etc.



I do know people that work for the company, and bar the depot transformations nothing else has really happened. Larbart has been told to get on with it, but with very little investment etc and trying as hard as there can, not much can be done, especial within the current lack of investment and Scotrail. Did it come out one of the depot managers walked?

If a plan does exist, I would want publicise it, and promote and highlight all the wonderful work. Its not like plymouth or Northampton where vultures are waiting in the wing to grab something, it more like the polo opposite.
Its not so much about new stock, but everything in general. A fare reduction of the same level as Manchester or Glasgow etc has not happened either, expect for reduced returns fares for part of the X38.



The network is not the problem, Nor is it the fares: Glasgow only has two single fares and has also reduced its weekly tickets.

Something else is at play, which means it is back to square one has there don't know what the problems is.

Why is people in Glasgow not flooding back to the bus network? congestion still happens and plenty of jobs etc.. so why aren't people switching over? the lack of new passengers is not down to higher unemployment.

It more down to the fact, first has a VERY bad public image around the central belt, and first needs to deal with this head on, as proven new buses, fare reductions and a better network does nothing, if the public still hates the company.

Maybe a phone call to Saatchi and Saatchi is needed.

Stop muddying the waters here.

Your point was the lack of a mention (and therefore strategy) in the interim statement, and in your words, taking that as a bad sign. The truth is that they weren't going to go through each and every subsidiary in the interims.
However, you've now moved onto saying why not tell the staff and passengers etc. That's fair enough but that isn't what the interim statement is about and that the audience are major financial institutions as Winston summarised that better than I could.

My point is you don't know what the plan is but there will be one; I've never known a business not to have a budget agreed and a means to achieving it, even if it isn't realistic As an aside, if you have so many friends working for First, then why didn't you ask them "what is the policy of bus companies if there is a Bag of liquid hanging from a bus seat?" - doubtless they could've told you?

Also, the square one comment.... perhaps you might have been better to say "move to plan B"? Square One means going back to where you were, which isn't what First have done.

As for the question of why Glasgow isn't fairing as well, well have a look here

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/glasgow-most-unemployed-households-uk-2251237
http://www.understandingglasgow.com...yment/ilo_unemployment_trends/scottish_cities

Essentially, unemployment is 50% higher in Glasgow than in Scotland generally. The natural thought is when unemployment goes up, then patronage should as people get rid of their cars.

This isn't the case. What happens is that patronage falls as workers don't get the bus, and those car users just use their car less (e.g. one weekly shop rather than two etc). And if you're unemployed, then where are you travelling and why? That's the reality of economic downturns on bus patronage! :cry:

 

[vicbury]

Ch
Essentially, unemployment is 50% higher in Glasgow than in Scotland generally. The natural thought is when unemployment goes up, then patronage should as people get rid of their cars.

This isn't the case. What happens is that patronage falls as workers don't get the bus, and those car users just use their car less (e.g. one weekly shop rather than two etc). And if you're unemployed, then where are you travelling and why? That's the reality of economic downturns on bus patronage! :cry:

I don't think it is as clear cut as this. Yes, unemployed people will likely travel less than the employed. However, economic downturns are a massive opportunity to grow patronage. Two car households may switch to being one car households and some one car households will consider getting rid of their car altogether. The downturn was a huge opportunity for bus companies to market cost savings towards car drivers.

First have completely failed to grasp this. When was the last time you saw an advert from First highlighting the savings that could be made through travelling by bus rather than car, and even getting rid of cars.

The best philosophy in business is to treat every setback as an opportunity and First have treated the downturn as a setback and that's it.

 

[overthewater]

Your point was the lack of a mention (and therefore strategy) in the interim statement, and in your words, taking that as a bad sign. The truth is that they weren't going to go through each and every subsidiary in the interims.

We can sort this point out in a few weeks time, once company house get the reports. If an improvement has been made I would have expect something as it would help prove first managements case.

However, you've now moved onto saying why not tell the staff and passengers etc. That's fair enough but that isn't what the interim statement is about and that the audience are major financial institutions as Winston summarised that better than I could.

You point is fair enought.

My point is you don't know what the plan is but there will be one; I've never known a business not to have a budget agreed and a means to achieving it, even if it isn't realistic As an aside, if you have so many friends working for First, then why didn't you ask them "what is the policy of bus companies if there is a Bag of liquid hanging from a bus seat?" - doubtless they could've told you?

I said I know people, (not alot) but its been rather hit and miss, and things keep changing, there did not know either.
It seems a cleaner must deal with such things and said bus should be taken out of service for a couple of mins while dealing with such matter, A bucket of hot water does the trick.

I don't think it is as clear cut as this. Yes, unemployed people will likely travel less than the employed. However, economic downturns are a massive opportunity to grow patronage. Two car households may switch to being one car households and some one car households will consider getting rid of their car altogether. The downturn was a huge opportunity for bus companies to market cost savings towards car drivers.

First have completely failed to grasp this. When was the last time you saw an advert from First highlighting the savings that could be made through travelling by bus rather than car, and even getting rid of cars.

The best philosophy in business is to treat every setback as an opportunity and First have treated the downturn as a setback and that's it.

I like your way of thinking!

 

[winston270twm]

We can sort this point out in a few weeks time, once company house get the reports. If an improvement has been made I would have expect something as it would help prove first managements case.

The report submitted to companies house will more than likely be exactly the same version that was released to the stock exchange & is posted on First Group's website for anyone to view. Interim reports are never as detailed as annual reports, but I don't know of any other UK bus groups that gives detailed breakdowns of individual subsidiary’s performances when releasing figures to the stock exchange.
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I don't think it is as clear cut as this. Yes, unemployed people will likely travel less than the employed. However, economic downturns are a massive opportunity to grow patronage. Two car households may switch to being one car households and some one car households will consider getting rid of their car altogether. The downturn was a huge opportunity for bus companies to market cost savings towards car drivers.

First have completely failed to grasp this. When was the last time you saw an advert from First highlighting the savings that could be made through travelling by bus rather than car, and even getting rid of cars.

The best philosophy in business is to treat every setback as an opportunity and First have treated the downturn as a setback and that's it.

I'd fully agree with all of that statement......

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Cheating? Really? As for time in memoriam, they're registering placement journeys. As in any industry, they're maximising their revenue. It's hardly like Google or Starbucks, is it?

To a certain extent they are fiddling the government albeit via a loophole. If they weren't then why not just run it out of service back to depot and to hell with the rebate?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't think it is as clear cut as this. Yes, unemployed people will likely travel less than the employed. However, economic downturns are a massive opportunity to grow patronage. Two car households may switch to being one car households and some one car households will consider getting rid of their car altogether. The downturn was a huge opportunity for bus companies to market cost savings towards car drivers.

First have completely failed to grasp this. When was the last time you saw an advert from First highlighting the savings that could be made through travelling by bus rather than car, and even getting rid of cars.

The best philosophy in business is to treat every setback as an opportunity and First have treated the downturn as a setback and that's it.

I'm sorry but this is actually the reality. Reduced economic activity has been reflected in reduced bus patronage in the last two recessions, particularly the 1980-2 one.

Perhaps have a look at the DfT's own statistics on bus patronage. If it were a case that First were the problem, then you'd expect the South West (where First are the dominant operator) to be one of the worst areas. It has actually only decreased by c.2% over the last 5 years. Meanwhile, the North East (where First aren't present) has declined by nearly 9% during the same period. That suggests that it is something more to do with macro-economics. As I say, it seems to be counter-intuitive but people don't trade down their travel (i.e. car to bus) during a downturn.

Don't get me wrong. I admire your idealism and I do think that the industry (and this is not confined to First) should do more to highlight the real cost of car use.

However, the fact is that bus travel is dominated by socio-economic groups C2, D and E, and in Glasgow, these have been affected by the economic downturn. Note the fact that Aberdeen (where the economic downturn has not be so pronounced) is actually doing quite well.
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To a certain extent they are fiddling the government albeit via a loophole. If they weren't then why not just run it out of service back to depot and to hell with the rebate?

Are they doing anything illegal? No

Are they doing anything that any other operator doesn't do? No

If it was YOUR money, would you do it? Yes - if you didn't, then you're not cut out to be a businessman!
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The report submitted to companies house will more than likely be exactly the same version that was released to the stock exchange & is posted on First Group's website for anyone to view. Interim reports are never as detailed as annual reports, but I don't know of any other UK bus groups that gives detailed breakdowns of individual subsidiary’s performances when releasing figures to the stock exchange.
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Bang on.

That said, even if a full financial breakdown is provided, how can anyone then determine what FSE's (or any other firm) will do going forward.

 

[vicbury]

I'm sorry but this is actually the reality. Reduced economic activity has been reflected in reduced bus patronage in the last two recessions, particularly the 1980-2 one.

Perhaps have a look at the DfT's own statistics on bus patronage. If it were a case that First were the problem, then you'd expect the South West (where First are the dominant operator) to be one of the worst areas. It has actually only decreased by c.2% over the last 5 years. Meanwhile, the North East (where First aren't present) has declined by nearly 9% during the same period. That suggests that it is something more to do with macro-economics. As I say, it seems to be counter-intuitive but people don't trade down their travel (i.e. car to bus) during a downturn.

Don't get me wrong. I admire your idealism and I do think that the industry (and this is not confined to First) should do more to highlight the real cost of car use.

Absolutely, past correlation between economic downturns and bus patronage need not point to future correlations. People at present might not be switching from car to bus but any innovative operator would be working to make that the case.

The first reaction from First to the downturn was to cut routes and frequencies. Cue negative publicity and restrictions to future growth, an incredibly short-sighted move. A decent operator would have invested in fare cuts and marketing in order to sustain frequencies (and possibly routes) thereby gaining positive publicity and improved patronage.

There are all sorts of factors at play as well, not just the downturn. People work different hours, socialise in different hours and travel patterns have changed spatially. Finally, First are catching up in cities such as Bristol with a decent night bus network and earlier morning journeys. If you can't get to work in the early morning or get home late at night, you aren't going to take the bus at all. Moreover, removing lightly used journeys will inevitably impact on patronage throughout the rest of the day. I wouldn't use the bus if I couldn't get home after 7pm and fortunately my two routes in Bath have seen First increase frequencies of late.

An analogy could be made between transport and supermarkets; both are necessary and both can use downturns to their advantage. For example, Lidl and Aldi are more difficult to get to than the big four, and offer less choice, yet have heavily marketed their savings and have seen big growth. Bus services are more difficult to get to (or use) than cars, and offer less choice, but the cost savings haven't been marketed.

I wonder if any savvy operators have used the downturn to their advantage?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Absolutely, past correlation between economic downturns and bus patronage need not point to future correlations. People at present might not be switching from car to bus but any innovative operator would be working to make that the case.

The first reaction from First to the downturn was to cut routes and frequencies. Cue negative publicity and restrictions to future growth, an incredibly short-sighted move. A decent operator would have invested in fare cuts and marketing in order to sustain frequencies (and possibly routes) thereby gaining positive publicity and improved patronage.

There are all sorts of factors at play as well, not just the downturn. People work different hours, socialise in different hours and travel patterns have changed spatially. Finally, First are catching up in cities such as Bristol with a decent night bus network and earlier morning journeys. If you can't get to work in the early morning or get home late at night, you aren't going to take the bus at all. Moreover, removing lightly used journeys will inevitably impact on patronage throughout the rest of the day. I wouldn't use the bus if I couldn't get home after 7pm and fortunately my two routes in Bath have seen First increase frequencies of late.

An analogy could be made between transport and supermarkets; both are necessary and both can use downturns to their advantage. For example, Lidl and Aldi are more difficult to get to than the big four, and offer less choice, yet have heavily marketed their savings and have seen big growth. Bus services are more difficult to get to (or use) than cars, and offer less choice, but the cost savings haven't been marketed.

I wonder if any savvy operators have used the downturn to their advantage?

That's like saying that recessions need not necessarily lead to falls in house prices. I'm sorry but reduced economic activity ALWAYS affects bus patronage. I've done the degree AND worked in the industry so the correlation is absolutely true. Also, look at the figures provided. Irrespective of the operator (though a bad operator will always fair worse than a good one), the areas that are worst affected in the UK in terms of bus patronage were the ones that were worst affected in terms on unemployment and economics. That is not conjecture, that is fact, and that happened 2008-13 as with 1980-2 and the black Wednesday episode.

As has been cited, First in Glasgow has done the things that you'd expect (e.g. new vehicles with wifi, fare revisions, service revisions) and that they've done that (with the expected improvements in trading) in other areas such as Manchester or Aberdeen. Why not Glasgow? That's because the local economy has been disproportionately affected economically. Conversely, you have the South West where high fares have been a problem (see Bristol) and service quality and cuts have been manifestly bad in the rest of the South West where (save for Devon, Plymouth and bits of North Cornwall), First are the dominant operator yet the fall in patronage was relatively small.

As for the economic downturn and First cutting back. Don't disagree it was folly. However, the problem was that they'd bought Laidlaw and then the downturn came; essentially, they had insufficient capital to spend and so fleet replacement was much reduced and businesses were expected to, at the same time, come up with industry busting returns. Whilst linked to the credit crunch, it's not quite right to say they just culturally decided to chop back at the first signs of the downturn. They had overstretched themselves - Moir's hubris didn't help!

You draw the parallel with retail, and Aldi/Lidl, and yes, there's much that operators can learn from retailers. However, look at overall retail spend and footfall and then see how bus patronage has fallen. The grocery retail market is a lot more complex than you suggest....after all, Waitrose have increased their sales by 7%. It is mid market that is being squeezed (e.g. Tesco, Co-op, Morrisons) and that is perhaps where bus travel sits.....in the middle between walking/cycling and having the luxury of a private car.

As I say, I know it's counter intuitive but reduced economic activity always results in reduced bus patronage, and has again this time. Once people have a car, they seldom relinquish usage on cost. They might make less journeys but seldom do they then use an alternative; the journey is lost. Where people do have a car and then use a bus, cost is often not the reason why. Lack of parking or disproportionate length of journey (distance/time) is usually the reason.

I'll happily agree that First and Arriva particularly have to raise their game to meet the challenges of 21st century bus travel. However, the fact that First now spec wifi as standard plus all the improvements that they're making will see them come back and begin to deliver some decent figures. Just that Giles and the new team had a hell of a lot to sort out.

 

[overthewater]

First might spec Wifi as standard but in Glasgow a group of new buses are still awaiting the wifi to be added.

 

[anthony263]

I don't think it is as clear cut as this. Yes, unemployed people will likely travel less than the employed. However, economic downturns are a massive opportunity to grow patronage. Two car households may switch to being one car households and some one car households will consider getting rid of their car altogether. The downturn was a huge opportunity for bus companies to market cost savings towards car drivers.

First have completely failed to grasp this. When was the last time you saw an advert from First highlighting the savings that could be made through travelling by bus rather than car, and even getting rid of cars.

The best philosophy in business is to treat every setback as an opportunity and First have treated the downturn as a setback and that's it.

Firs Cymru all credit too them have launched a advertising campaign across south wales showing how much people could save each week if they travelled by bus.

I do admit though as a former employee of First that there are a lot of area's where the company could do better

 

[GaryMcEwan]

First might spec Wifi as standard but in Glasgow a group of new buses are still awaiting the wifi to be added.

Yep 67751-67772 from the Parkhead Depot still have WiFi to be fitted even though they have adverts stating that is has WiFi...

 

[overthewater]

Many companies see less passengers during a downturn because many of the passengers are either at the lower end of the labour market or not workers.

There is a REAL need for bus companies to expand the passengers who use there service for work. The call centre staff at Sky or power companies are still there, or work in the supermarkets etc.

At least 80% of population are still employed, but how are most of them getting to work? how many are using the car to go shopping on Saturday? Why hasn't many car users not transferred over to the bus to commute? Most bus services should not be effect by a turndown if a FULL range of passengers use the bus network, but to many eggs are in one basket.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Many companies see less passengers during a downturn because many of the passengers are either at the lower end of the labour market or not workers.

There is a REAL need for bus companies to expand the passengers who use there service for work. The call centre staff at Sky or power companies are still there, or work in the supermarkets etc.

At least 80% of population are still employed, but how are most of them getting to work? how many are using the car to go shopping on Saturday? Why hasn't many car users not transferred over to the bus to commute? Most bus services should not be effect by a turndown if a FULL range of passengers use the bus network, but to many eggs are in one basket.

On this, I agree with you but it's difficult. The fact is that the old days had employers with workforces in their thousands who lived in a relatively compact geographic area with a regimented shift system. Nowadays, the workforce is much more fragmented and flexible.

The reason why car owners have not moved to public transport is that our lives have been built around the car. Housing estates that are difficult to serve, fragmented employment and out of town supermarkets make people think that they need a car (and it has traditionally been portrayed as aspirational). So if you "need" one for home life, you may as well use it for commuting where you can sit in a warm metal box with needing to interact with anyone else.

So how do you change that? Make the differential in terms of time and money more obvious and pronounced. However, will the politicians do that. The fact that the government are happy to chop BSOG but not increase fuel duty points that they won't and even people like Liverpool's mayor is playing the populist card by removing bus lanes.

However, buses can never compete with a car and be all things to all people. They are best suited to moving large volumes of people along simple corridors. I will say that the industry has failed to move quickly enough in some aspects e.g. the cities that don't have Boxing Day services, don't have 24 hour services, etc but getting bus patronage to increase isn't as easy as some people think

 

[Robertj21a]

On this, I agree with you but it's difficult. The fact is that the old days had employers with workforces in their thousands who lived in a relatively compact geographic area with a regimented shift system. Nowadays, the workforce is much more fragmented and flexible.

The reason why car owners have not moved to public transport is that our lives have been built around the car. Housing estates that are difficult to serve, fragmented employment and out of town supermarkets make people think that they need a car (and it has traditionally been portrayed as aspirational). So if you "need" one for home life, you may as well use it for commuting where you can sit in a warm metal box with needing to interact with anyone else.

So how do you change that? Make the differential in terms of time and money more obvious and pronounced. However, will the politicians do that. The fact that the government are happy to chop BSOG but not increase fuel duty points that they won't and even people like Liverpool's mayor is playing the populist card by removing bus lanes.

However, buses can never compete with a car and be all things to all people. They are best suited to moving large volumes of people along simple corridors. I will say that the industry has failed to move quickly enough in some aspects e.g. the cities that don't have Boxing Day services, don't have 24 hour services, etc but getting bus patronage to increase isn't as easy as some people think

All very true. I would just add that the industry does itself no favours with buses that break down, don't turn up, have poor quality seating or suspension and grumpy drivers. Although I may be able to explain most of those points away, it's of no interest to a car user who tries the bus and vows 'never again'.

Robert
.

 

[radamfi]

However, buses can never compete with a car and be all things to all people. They are best suited to moving large volumes of people along simple corridors.

You're still going on about that despite my presentation of strong evidence from Switzerland that PT can compete effectively against the car for local travel. Places like Zurich and Bern, modest sized cities compared to what we have in the UK, have PT modal shares in excess of 40%.

Of course, I wouldn't expect First to be able to do much about it on their own. Decent modal share can only be achieved by proper public funding and investment, and centralised planning.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You're still going on about that despite my presentation of strong evidence from Switzerland that PT can compete effectively against the car for local travel. Places like Zurich and Bern, modest sized cities compared to what we have in the UK, have PT modal shares in excess of 40%.

Of course, I wouldn't expect First to be able to do much about it on their own. Decent modal share can only be achieved by proper public funding and investment, and centralised planning.

Have you blundered in without reading properly? A bit like Bridget Jones when you appears as a bunnygirl and then realises the soiree isn't fancy dress

Firstly, the question was as to why the First are not faring as well in Glasgow as they might, and then was broadened to a wider question. It was not a question of why but what....what are the reasons for the lack of modal shift in the UK currently and historically and on that point, what I've written is correct.

I actually fully agree with you about the differing approaches in the UK and that planning policy over lots of years plus the cultural approach that has been fanned by the roads lobby since the days of Marples has a lot to do with it. And don't get me wrong...I'd love to see modal shift and everything that that can bring but please look at what I wrote...

So how do you change that? Make the differential in terms of time and money more obvious and pronounced. However, will the politicians do that. The fact that the government are happy to chop BSOG but not increase fuel duty points that they won't and even people like Liverpool's mayor is playing the populist card by removing bus lanes.

Does that point to a lack of political will and inability to properly invest in public transport as they do in certain continental European countries? This has been a long standing issue in the UK

However, buses can never compete with a car and be all things to all people. They are best suited to moving large volumes of people along simple corridors.


Not in the UK following years of car centric planning, and certainly can not be the "on demand" choice of many people. Even now, I'm working on two separate projects. One in Germany has draconian rules on workplace car parking and is aimed at pointing people to using the local S Bahn station. Conversely, the UK one has a business park with absolutely oodles of free parking and an hourly bus service (council and developer supported, and one better than a number of projects I've worked on).

I will say that the industry has failed to move quickly enough in some aspects e.g. the cities that don't have Boxing Day services, don't have 24 hour services, etc but getting bus patronage to increase isn't as easy as some people think

You've worked in the industry? Know the headwinds that operators have to encounter?

You have tokenism (GBF as an example) and poorly financed electoral bribes (ENCTS) whilst then slashing BSOG. However, I don't see any government having the balls to adequately fund public transport whilst removing the advantages that the private car enjoys. Did the politicians in Nottingham push ahead with car parking taxation? Or the ones in GM on the congestion zone charge?

I absolutely take on your point but look at the here and now, and that is what the question was about

 

[Deerfold]

However, I don't see any government having the balls to adequately fund public transport whilst removing the advantages that the private car enjoys. Did the politicians in Nottingham push ahead with car parking taxation?

Yes they did - and unsurprisingly many haven't liked it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...ip-workplace-parking-levy-creating-chaos.html

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes they did - and unsurprisingly many haven't liked it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...ip-workplace-parking-levy-creating-chaos.html

Apologies, I thought they'd watered it down. Got that one wrong At least they do have some politicians with vision and conviction

The same article mentions Bristol.... don't get me started on Mr Ferguson. And then there's Liverpool.

 

[overthewater]

First Glasgow do have some changes in the pipe line for January.

 

[Deerfold]

First Glasgow do have some changes in the pipe line for January.

*sigh*

Care to share them?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

*sigh*

Care to share them?

Deerfold, don't tell anyone I told you but I have sources in the know who have secretly passed on this high level intelligence. I had to walk to a chip shop in Milngavie, walk in and ask for 2 cod and chips; the contact (behind the fryer), gave me some encoded data that I have now been able to transpose thanks to colleagues in Cheltenham.

Here you go....

PM0000001/9 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Partick Bus Station and Carmyle, Rover Road given service number 8/8A effective from 06-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.
PM0000001/18 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Glasgow, Osborne Street and East Kilbride (Bus Station) given service number 31/31A effective from 06-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.
PM0000001/34 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Faifley Turning Circle, or Airdrie and Baillieston, Caledonia Road given service number 2/262 effective from 06-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.
PM0000001/120 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Milton (Skerray Street) and Castlemilk, Carmunnock Road given service number 75 effective from 06-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.
PM0000001/418 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Newton Mearns, Eastwood Toll or Woodfarm and Easterhouse or Barlanark or Baillieston or Chryston given service number 38/38A/38B/38C/38E effective from 06-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.
PM0000001/427 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Newton Mearns, Eastwood Toll or Woodfarm and Easterhouse or Barlanark or Baillieston or Chryston given service number 38/38A/38B/38C/38E effective from 05-Jan-2014.
PM0000001/428 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Newlands, Kilmarnock Road at Auldhouse Road and Hope Street, Glasgow given service number 38 effective from 05-Jan-2014.
PM0000001/429 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Glasgow, Hope Street and Craigend given service number 38 effective from 05-Jan-2014.
PM0000001/430 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Mountblow and Glasgow City Centre given service number 1F effective from 06-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.
PM0000001/432 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Parkhead Tollcross Road and Summerston Castlemains Faifley given service number 60C/60D/61B effective from 06-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.
PM0000001/433 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Parkhead and Patrick Govan Clydebank given service number 2B/2C/2D effective from 06-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.
PM0000001/435 - FIRST GLASGOW (NO1) LTD T/A FIRST GLASGOW, 197 VICTORIA ROAD, GLASGOW, G42 7AD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Govanhill, Laurieston Road and Milton given service number 75A effective from 06-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.


Must dash. I have a secret rendezvous with another operative to get some more classified data on FSE

 

[overthewater]

That made me laugh.

Still none the wiser whats actually changing.

 

[Stan Drews]

Deerfold, don't tell anyone I told you but I have sources in the know who have secretly passed on this high level intelligence. I had to walk to a chip shop in Milngavie, walk in and ask for 2 cod and chips; the contact (behind the fryer), gave me some encoded data that I have now been able to transpose thanks to colleagues in Cheltenham.

Here you go....

Now, if you'd said "2 fish suppers", your story would have been entirely believable, but you blew it....... :roll:

 

[radamfi]

Not in the UK following years of car centric planning, and certainly can not be the "on demand" choice of many people. Even now, I'm working on two separate projects. One in Germany has draconian rules on workplace car parking and is aimed at pointing people to using the local S Bahn station. Conversely, the UK one has a business park with absolutely oodles of free parking and an hourly bus service (council and developer supported, and one better than a number of projects I've worked on).

The UK is not such a planning nightmare as it is made out to be. Environmentalists moan that the UK towns should be compact like in mainland Europe, but analysis in the book "Transport for Suburbia" shows that in actual fact UK towns are very compact by international standards. It is certainly not like America with small towns sprawling for miles.

It is logical when you look at history. Before the 80s planning was very strictly controlled and most houses were terraced or semi-detached with modest gardens. This was only partially undone by the laissez-faire planning regulations under Thatcher. In the 90s, we were back to strict planning under PPG13. Car parking is still generally rationed for new housing, leading to problems with parking overspilling onto the road instead of on people's drives. There is a also a growing trend in the UK for urban living with lots of apartment blocks in inner cities.