First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

2 x Volvo B9TL/Wright Gemini have been delivered to Heysham Docks for First Berkshire on Greenline work, I wasn't aware that First Group had ordered any more double deckers than the original 42 x E400's, is anyone able to confirm? I remember eight of the 2013/14 order were Tbc at the time of the annoucement,

http://malsfotofile.smugmug.com/Hey...99298_xDfKFr#!i=2845913722&k=pn2TK9w&lb=1&s=A
http://malsfotofile.smugmug.com/Hey...99298_xDfKFr#!i=2845913728&k=QK3QTv2&lb=1&s=A
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2 x Volvo B9TL/Wright Gemini have been delivered to Heysham Docks for First Berkshire on Greenline work, I wasn't aware that First Group had ordered any more double deckers than the original 42 x E400's, is anyone able to confirm? I remember eight of the 2013/14 order were Tbc at the time of the annoucement,

http://malsfotofile.smugmug.com/Hey...99298_xDfKFr#!i=2845913722&k=pn2TK9w&lb=1&s=A
http://malsfotofile.smugmug.com/Hey...99298_xDfKFr#!i=2845913728&k=QK3QTv2&lb=1&s=A

I've since found out that 3 are due in total

 

[bb21]

Not just apparently.

It goes to Braunstone from 27/10/2013:

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/lei...e=18/19&routeid=2189551&operator=17&source=sp

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/new_service_updates/attach_1381413092_19911_18 19 map Oct 2013.pdf


Combined frequency with the 18 will go from 5 to 8 buses an hour.

My first reaction is that with the introduction of the 19, the 70 is going, but it would appear that it will not be the case. Let's see how long they manage to last.

In other news, Leicester finally has a single decker in the new livery.

I suspect that as an assault on Arriva's routes along Narborough Road and Hinckley Road, special fares will be introduced, otherwise they would not be able to compete for any journey up to three fare stages.

 

[overthewater]

From what I have heard since last years, the Border area of First Scotland East is classified as a separate operation, to the main company.

It now seems at Long last the cat is out of the BAG: " Lee Young, Operations Manager at First Borders’ headquarters in Galashiels."

The New £3 Day Ticket’ in Galashiels:
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/latest_news/?id=010051

So First Scotland East has lost its money spinner, and has no money to spend on its self. The X38, was a repaint, and nothing else, No refurbishment, No new leather seats......nothing, unlike other First areas.

This is the point, FSE will need ALOT of money, Why would First waste Lots of Money and effort? even a few years down the line?

 

[Robertj21a]

My first reaction is that with the introduction of the 19, the 70 is going, but it would appear that it will not be the case. Let's see how long they manage to last.

In other news, Leicester finally has a single decker in the new livery.

I suspect that as an assault on Arriva's routes along Narborough Road and Hinckley Road, special fares will be introduced, otherwise they would not be able to compete for any journey up to three fare stages.

The 70 is only going as the 16 will cover it. First Leicester already operate along Hinckley Road (current 18) - the new 19 just completes a circle. I doubt there will be any serious competition along Narborough Road itself

Robert

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

From what I have heard since last years, the Border area of First Scotland East is classified as a separate operation, to the main company.

It now seems at Long last the cat is out of the BAG: " Lee Young, Operations Manager at First Borders’ headquarters in Galashiels."

The New £3 Day Ticket’ in Galashiels:
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/latest_news/?id=010051

So First Scotland East has lost its money spinner, and has no money to spend on its self. The X38, was a repaint, and nothing else, No refurbishment, No new leather seats......nothing, unlike other First areas.

This is the point, FSE will need ALOT of money, Why would First waste Lots of Money and effort? even a few years down the line?

So are you saying that based on that press release, FSE is being closed down?

 

[bb21]

The 70 is only going as the 16 will cover it. First Leicester already operate along Hinckley Road (current 18) - the new 19 just completes a circle. I doubt there will be any serious competition along Narborough Road itself

Robert

I can't believe that they are running buses along Narborough Road and be willing to ignore this quite sizeable market. There is good custom along Narborough Road for short-distance journeys and they can be quite profitable.

Reducing fares on that corridor to Arriva's level would certainly allow them to compete better, now that they have a compatible frequency combining the 16/18/19 which can rival Arriva's 50/51.

 

[Robertj21a]

I can't believe that they are running buses along Narborough Road and be willing to ignore this quite sizeable market. There is good custom along Narborough Road for short-distance journeys and they can be quite profitable.

Reducing fares on that corridor to Arriva's level would certainly allow them to compete better, now that they have a compatible frequency combining the 16/18/19 which can rival Arriva's 50/51.

After the First fiasco attempting to run to Oadby I guess that they're reluctant to encourage more retaliation from Arriva. They'd do far better if they tried to be a bit innovative for once - why not try the 51 route that Thurmaston Bus successfully introduced ?

Robert

 

[overthewater]

So are you saying that based on that press release, FSE is being closed down?

Nope I just think FSE will just carry on as it does now, like a wounded lion, and nothing major is forthcoming. FSE will have to make improvements with next to no money.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Nope I just think FSE will just carry on as it does now, like a wounded lion, and nothing major is forthcoming. FSE will have to make improvements with next to no money.

You have gained all that from the press release? Perhaps it's First trying to appear, and actually be, more local to their customers?

We've been here before with 2+2=537

 

[overthewater]

You have gained all that from the press release? Perhaps it's First trying to appear, and actually be, more local to their customers?

We've been here before with 2+2=537

No. you have mist the point.

As I've said, First Border has became a more local company IE (Off shot of main operation for some time) This press release now confirms what been done in the background, which you rightly say appear more local. But from what I've heard its two different pots now.

* Border
* Rest of the company, (Saying that I've heard that been split in two aswell)

It been since last year the company has been reorganised to improve itself.

This does now leave the rest of the company hopping along and your said yourself where first should be spending the money, thus its another 6-18 months before something might happen, so everyone just has to get on with it.

FSE has been reorganised since last year.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No. you have mist the point.

As I've said, First Border has became a more local company IE (Off shot of main operation for some time) This press release now confirms what been done in the background, which you rightly say appear more local. But from what I've heard its two different pots now.

* Border
* Rest of the company, (Saying that I've heard that been split in two aswell)

It been since last year the company has been reorganised to improve itself.

This does now leave the rest of the company hopping along and your said yourself where first should be spending the money, thus its another 6-18 months before something might happen, so everyone just has to get on with it.

FSE has been reorganised since last year.

So if FSE has been reorganised since last year, how has the cat just been let out of the bag?

FSE is like a number of First businesses that will have to survive on limited numbers of new vehicles aided by cascades. Same goes for Cornwall and Somerset though even places that have suffered from a lack of investment e.g. Wales have now received welcome investment. 2014 will be an intriguing year

 

[overthewater]

So if FSE has been reorganised since last year, how has the cat just been let out of the bag?

FSE is like a number of First businesses that will have to survive on limited numbers of new vehicles aided by cascades. Same goes for Cornwall and Somerset though even places that have suffered from a lack of investment e.g. Wales have now received welcome investment. 2014 will be an intriguing year

I dont know, Only first could answer that. Alas Im not holding my breath for 2014.

 

[Blindtraveler]

niether am I. Borders makes money, Livingston doesnt, same with musselburgh. Id guess falkirk and stirling does to a point, but still not the sort of money to get them the investment needed.↲

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

2 x Volvo B9TL/Wright Gemini have been delivered to Heysham Docks for First Berkshire on Greenline work, I wasn't aware that First Group had ordered any more double deckers than the original 42 x E400's, is anyone able to confirm? I remember eight of the 2013/14 order were Tbc at the time of the annoucement,

http://malsfotofile.smugmug.com/Hey...99298_xDfKFr#!i=2845913722&k=pn2TK9w&lb=1&s=A
http://malsfotofile.smugmug.com/Hey...99298_xDfKFr#!i=2845913728&k=QK3QTv2&lb=1&s=A
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I've since found out that 3 are due in total

Aren't there 6 Green Line deckers? 3 x 11 and 3 x 58 plate so assume the latter trio are being replaced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I dont know, Only first could answer that. Alas Im not holding my breath for 2014.

Indeed... only First can answer that. Need to get a few low floor deckers and cull some Royales, as well as killing the ex Manc/Aberdeen Darts.

Without knowing each individual depots trading, I'd be surprised if Bannockburn and Larbert aren't making money and in sufficient quantity to justify some new vehicles or decent cascades.

As for the money spinners at Gala, I think they're decent routes (62/95) and do justify decent kit but there is a longer term game being played there with the new rail link

 

[winston270twm]

Aren't there 6 Green Line deckers? 3 x 11 and 3 x 58 plate so assume the latter trio are being replaced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
k

No there's 7 with 32348 LK53LZL, plus there are still two Scania/Irizar coaches in Greenline livery 23008 YV03UBA & 23013 YN04AJU. May be these 3 are being replaced to standardize the Greenline fleet on 9 x Volvo B9TL/Wright Eclipse?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No there's 7 with 32348 LK53LZL, plus there are still two Scania/Irizar coaches in Greenline livery 23008 YV03UBA & 23013 YN04AJU. May be these 3 are being replaced to standardize the Greenline fleet on 9 x Volvo B9TL/Wright Eclipse?

That makes a lot more sense!

 

[overthewater]

Indeed... only First can answer that. Need to get a few low floor deckers and cull some Royales, as well as killing the ex Manc/Aberdeen Darts.

Without knowing each individual depots trading, I'd be surprised if Bannockburn and Larbert aren't making money and in sufficient quantity to justify some new vehicles or decent cascades.

As for the money spinners at Gala, I think they're decent routes (62/95) and do justify decent kit but there is a longer term game being played there with the new rail link

Even then the new rail link wont do much damage to 62 and Gala - Carlise section of the X95.

The best Bannockburn and Larbert can justify in decent cascades are T plate Tridents from glasgow which have never been done up and 20 odd W plate Alx300 which no one else wanted with awful Urbun90 seats but can still move. The only routes which could justify new stock would be the 38 or 43...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Even then the new rail link wont do much damage to 62 and Gala - Carlise section of the X95.

The best Bannockburn and Larbert can justify in decent cascades are T plate Tridents from glasgow which have never been done up and 20 odd W plate Alx300 which no one else wanted with awful Urbun90 seats but can still move. The only routes which could justify new stock would be the 38 or 43...

Yes, though its difficult to upgrade the X95 (yet not the 62) and the Gala to Carlisle section of the X95 isn't what makes the money, is it?

As for the other routes.....well there's two for new stock, and stuff like the X37 can probably justify relatively new cascades.

 

[overthewater]

Yes, though its difficult to upgrade the X95 (yet not the 62) and the Gala to Carlisle section of the X95 isn't what makes the money, is it?

As for the other routes.....well there's two for new stock, and stuff like the X37 can probably justify relatively new cascades.

Gala - Carlisle is commercial,

If you have seen whats been put on the X37 of late ie those nice Alx300...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Gala - Carlisle is commercial,

If you have seen whats been put on the X37 of late ie those nice Alx300...

Gala to Carlisle may be commercial but that is not where the real money is made. After all, it was subsidised until 2 years ago so I'd suggest it is that section (south of Hawick) isn't the lucrative bit

 

[Blindtraveler]

x95 will still make money post rail link but can see Edinburgh Gala being 1BPH as aposed to 2. last time I had the pleasure of X37 it was a friday night and a 2 door trident, ouch, esp after Cumbernauld! X4 X43 43 38 X38 could do with the leather seat treatment with the volvos cascaded, the Geminis could see off a few olies in Falkirk.

 

[DunsBus]

First provide the through journeys on the X95 between Edinburgh and Carlisle commercially during the day on Mondays to Fridays and all day on Saturdays. The Monday to Friday evening journeys south of Hawick, along with the four Gala-Carlisle roundtrips on Sundays, are tendered.

 

[david16]

Gala - Carlisle is commercial,

If you have seen whats been put on the X37 of late ie those nice Alx300...

The X37 has not been a comfortable journey for many years now. Certainly from when they started flogging those L reg Scanias with those hard seats up and down the A80. How they thought the L reg'ers were better for distance work than the not much older Plaxton Premiere coaches I'll never know

Great coaches sold off to then be replaced by those rock hard seated step entry Scanias was ridiculous to say the least.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even then the new rail link wont do much damage to 62 and Gala - Carlise section of the X95.

The best Bannockburn and Larbert can justify in decent cascades are T plate Tridents from glasgow which have never been done up and 20 odd W plate Alx300 which no one else wanted with awful Urbun90 seats but can still move. The only routes which could justify new stock would be the 38 or 43...

I would call the urban90 seats municipal service bus seats. In the old days the municipal service bus seats used to be the seats with red or brown vinyl and the metal bar. Both decks on the municipal double deckers were the red vinyl ones. In rural service double deckers only upstairs had the red vinyl seats while downstairs seats had the more comfortable moquette seats.

The old municipal bus seats felt more like luxurious coach seats compared to todays municipal bus seats.

 

[Blindtraveler]

agreed, give us the old style back any day

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The X37 has not been a comfortable journey for many years now. Certainly from when they started flogging those L reg Scanias with those hard seats up and down the A80. How they thought the L reg'ers were better for distance work than the not much older Plaxton Premiere coaches I'll never know

Great coaches sold off to then be replaced by those rock hard seated step entry Scanias was ridiculous to say the least.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I would call the urban90 seats municipal service bus seats. In the old days the municipal service bus seats used to be the seats with red or brown vinyl and the metal bar. Both decks on the municipal double deckers were the red vinyl ones. In rural service double deckers only upstairs had the red vinyl seats while downstairs seats had the more comfortable moquette seats.

The old municipal bus seats felt more like luxurious coach seats compared to todays municipal bus seats.

Totally agree on Urban 90s. First aren't the only offenders with Arriva having them on deckers on trunk routes in Yorkshire and the North East.

I still maintain that the X37 takes more than the X95 south of Hawick and could/should have better kit on it.

 

[overthewater]

X37 is a controlled route and must operate even if it makes a loss.

Actually it should have been scraped years ago and replaced by simpler single route from Glasgow - muirhead - M/burns - cumbernauld. With fast buses for falkirk. Is there really a demand for allandale- muirhead?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

X37 is a controlled route and must operate even if it makes a loss.

Actually it should have been scraped years ago and replaced by simpler single route from Glasgow - muirhead - M/burns - cumbernauld. With fast buses for falkirk. Is there really a demand for allandale- muirhead?

Does it lose money?

 

[Surreyman]

X37 is a controlled route and must operate even if it makes a loss.

Actually it should have been scraped years ago and replaced by simpler single route from Glasgow - muirhead - M/burns - cumbernauld. With fast buses for falkirk. Is there really a demand for allandale- muirhead?

overthewater, care to explain what a 'Controlled route' is?

 

[overthewater]

overthewater, care to explain what a 'Controlled route' is?

Back in 2004 when first won scotrail, a lot of people were unhappy and stated first would reduced parallie bus routes. To stop this oft/cc put in place controlled routes.on many long haul routes. Over the years first has managed to reduced the list as it claims there lost money. First has lost on a few and thus some are still in place including fig 31. Fse, 27/28 x37 x38 x39.

I will get a link to all the documents later on.
#################################

This is the lastest: http://www.competition-commission.o...possible-changes-to-scottish-bus-undertakings

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....g.uk/inquiries/completed/2004/first/index.htm

Here are some route First has gotten rid off, because there made losses, form 2009
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/mergers_ea02/2009/First_Scot.pdf

I do found it strange some people still never know about this clause in connection with Scotrail.

 

[robertclark125]

See if First were to sell Bannockburn and/or Larbert, whichever depot runs the 38/X38, then presumabely the new owners aren't required to keep the routes at their existing frequencies/routes?