First Group: General Discussion

[Rich McLean]

I think that is what the guy meant, just the Plymouth operations.

However, I feel they will stick it out for a fair bit longer than 6 months

 

[Robertj21a]

I think you will find that First depart from the Plymouth area reasonably soon. The final decision will probably be taken in about 6 months time so that, with statutory notice to affected staff, deregistration of services etc etc we're probably looking at them finally giving up around mid-Summer 2014.

Robert

 

[winston270twm]

I think that is what the guy meant, just the Plymouth operations.

However, I feel they will stick it out for a fair bit longer than 6 months

I assume the 6 months is giving management a target date to aim for in which to improve the operations performance, ultimately if the situation doesn't improve in-line with First Groups requirements I can see the Plymouth operation potentially being sold off to Stagecoach, I can't see Plymouth being closed down per as Barnstable & Northampton. It would cost First a fortune, it would be cheaper for First to make a loss on any disposal than pay redundancy/closure costs. But that then leaves Cornwall a bit isolated and they do seem to making a concerted effort to win tenders etc

First Group are due to release a pre-close trading statement 3rd October (Thurs), I would be good to hear that they are starting to see some positive results towards growing the profit margins at UK bus

 

[overthewater]

I still wonder if it would be good idea if WG and First Cornwall merged together to help solve the troubles in the areas? It happened up in Peak district.

I hope the trading statement has some good news.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I assume the 6 months is giving management a target date to aim for in which to improve the operations performance, ultimately if the situation doesn't improve in-line with First Groups requirements I can see the Plymouth operation potentially being sold off to Stagecoach, I can't see Plymouth being closed down per as Barnstable & Northampton. It would cost First a fortune, it would be cheaper for First to make a loss on any disposal than pay redundancy/closure costs. But that then leaves Cornwall a bit isolated and they do seem to making a concerted effort to win tenders etc

First Group are due to release a pre-close trading statement 3rd October (Thurs), I would be good to hear that they are starting to see some positive results towards growing the profit margins at UK bus

Talk around the industry is that some of the big urban areas ARE starting to kick on. Mind you, talk is cheap and often incorrect

The thing about Plymouth is that it is isolated anyway. Yes, you've got the Torpoint operations but then there's a big chunk of fairly thin territory around Looe and Liskeard and then across to Bodmin and St. Awful (Austell) until you encounter FDC again.

Thing is, the 6 month thing can only be speculation as why would anyone at First mention it? It would be a conversation between Jeroen/Giles and Alex Carter. Otherwise, it sends out a signal to Go Ahead saying "please compete against us for 6 months, and then we'll head off".

 

[winston270twm]

Talk around the industry is that some of the big urban areas ARE starting to kick on. Mind you, talk is cheap and often incorrect

The thing about Plymouth is that it is isolated anyway. Yes, you've got the Torpoint operations but then there's a big chunk of fairly thin territory around Looe and Liskeard and then across to Bodmin and St. Awful (Austell) until you encounter FDC again.

Thing is, the 6 month thing can only be speculation as why would anyone at First mention it? It would be a conversation between Jeroen/Giles and Alex Carter. Otherwise, it sends out a signal to Go Ahead saying "please compete against us for 6 months, and then we'll head off".

TheGrandWazoo,

Thursdays trading update could be quite interesting then.... it is the large urban operations where First Group need to concentrate all their efforts as these will have the largest overall effect on Firsts UK bus performance/profit margins going forward.

Unless anything goes against First within the next 12 months, I can't really see many more First UK bus asset sales taking place

I can see your point Plymouth & FDC

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

TheGrandWazoo,

Thursdays trading update could be quite interesting then.... it is the large urban operations where First Group need to concentrate all their efforts as these will have the largest overall effect on Firsts UK bus performance/profit margins going forward.

Unless anything goes against First within the next 12 months, I can't really see many more First UK bus asset sales taking place

I can see your point Plymouth & FDC

Thursday will be interesting (as a watcher and shareholder)! That said, we probably won't get a settled picture on UK bus IMHO, as we won't have seen the benefit of losing some of the underperforming ops yet.

We shall see how it goes!

 

[winston270twm]

Thursday will be interesting (as a watcher and shareholder)! That said, we probably won't get a settled picture on UK bus IMHO, as we won't have seen the benefit of losing some of the underperforming ops yet.

We shall see how it goes!

Same here.....

I'm not so sure, as the interim's in 2012 were up until 30th Sept, so it should include all the recent asset sales & closures to date.the only issue may be one of charges on possible losses on disposals & closures which may cloud the actual figures when released 6th Nov

 

[overthewater]

What times it due out?

 

[winston270twm]

What times it due out?

7am an hour before the stock market opens

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What times it due out?

Usually made at 7 am..... echo...echo...echo
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Same here.....

I'm not so sure, as the interim's in 2012 were up until 30th Sept, so it should include all the recent asset sales & closures to date.the only issue may be one of charges on possible losses on disposals & closures which may cloud the actual figures when released 6th Nov

Was thinking more on the overall pattern of trading. Appreciate it will have the divestments and closures there (and write downs) but was thinking more about the actual bums on seats trends.....

 

[bnm]

According to ITV News, the announcement from the DfT that First Group have secured the Greater Western management contract is also expected on 03/10/2013.

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry...in-companys-contract-expected-to-be-extended/

Is that likely to be part of the trading update I wonder?

 

[overthewater]

http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/investors/presentations.php

http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/pd...ly_pre-close_statement_2014_press-release.pdf

UK Bus
During the period, like-for-like passenger revenue in the division is expected to increase by 1.6%, with particularly positive results from those operations furthest along the transformation programme. While the pace and approach being taken to fares and network changes is deliberately tailored to local market conditions, it is pleasing that overall the division is expected to report passenger volume growth, of 0.6%, for the first six month period in several years. Where changes to our commercial proposition have been in place longest or have changed most significantly, such as in Sheffield, Rotherham, Doncaster and Manchester, we are seeing particularly pleasing increases in commercial passenger volumes. A number of
our local markets continue to face challenging economic conditions, and there remains considerable work to be done to meet our medium-term objective of double digit margins for the division, but as we progress through our transformation plans, our confidence continues to increase.

No mention of the lower end areas...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/investors/presentations.php

http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/pd...ly_pre-close_statement_2014_press-release.pdf



No mention of the lower end areas...

Why would they?

 

[overthewater]

Why would they?

If there are making improvements in those areas and you talk flok it would push up the shares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why would they?

If there are making headway improvements in those areas and you tell flok it would push up the shares.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If there are making improvements in those areas and you talk flok it would push up the shares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If there are making headway improvements in those areas and you tell flok it would push up the shares.

Alternatively, don't you think that they are talking up the areas where they are making headway??

Why then undermine the good news by talking of places that aren't performing as well....What you're saying is counter productive PR!

 

[radamfi]

The director-speak "A number of our local markets continue to face challenging economic conditions" can be translated to "We are still struggling in many of our poorer performing subsidiaries".

 

[overthewater]

The director-speak "A number of our local markets continue to face challenging economic conditions" can be translated to "We are still struggling in many of our poorer performing subsidiaries".

, our confidence continues to increase.

Good to see someone has it for those areas.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Today meeting:

http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/me...alf-yearly_pre-close_statement_2014_audio.mp3

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Good to see someone has it for those areas.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Today meeting:

http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/me...alf-yearly_pre-close_statement_2014_audio.mp3

Yes, but look at somewhere like Midland Red (West) as opposed to Midland Red (South). The Stagecoach operation is tightly run, has a decent age profile despite the odd elderly decker and makes +20% whilst the First operation was woefully neglected. Think of what they could do with Worcester?

They do have some good potential and the opportunity to develop some of these into really strong operations. I know people still like to complain about First but the changes and localism are taking hold. Yes, there's a lot still to do but these signs are positive. Restoring some of these operations will take time

 

[F Great Eastern]

Just read on an Irish forum that First have ordered 10 Plaxton Coaches for Aircoach, although some forums seem to suggest it is only 5.

 

[overthewater]

Just read on an Irish forum that First have ordered 10 Plaxton Coaches for Aircoach, although some forums seem to suggest it is only 5.

That is good news, talk was First might want to get out but it seems of late First are doing a good job and plans to stick around a bit longer.

 

[Volvodart]

Just read on an Irish forum that First have ordered 10 Plaxton Coaches for Aircoach, although some forums seem to suggest it is only 5.

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=8050&categoryid=0

Other major coach orders announced by Robertson were 18 for Parks, and ten each for Logans and Aircoach.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Indeed, but Volvo themselves I've heard from an excellent source only mentioned 5...

 

[overthewater]

Indeed, but Volvo themselves I've heard from an excellent source only mentioned 5...

Could it be a split deal? five now and five later?

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/mergers/Mergers_Cases/2013/first-manchester#.UlVgTzxwbIU

First Manchester Limited / Finglands Coachways Limited



Invitation to comment:



Anticipated acquisition by First Manchester Limited of certain assets of Finglands Coachways Limited issued 9 October 2013

The Office of Fair Trading is considering whether this agreement has resulted in the creation of a relevant merger situation under the merger provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002 and, if so, whether the creation of that situation has resulted, or may be expected to result, in a substantial lessening of competition within any market or markets in the United Kingdom for goods or services.

Affected sector: local bus services

Please send written representations about any competition or public interest issues to:

Cleo Alliston
Office of Fair Trading
Fleetbank House
2-6 Salisbury Square
London EC4Y 8JX
Email: cleo.alliston@oft.gsi.gov.uk
Fax: 020 7211 8669

to arrive by 23 October 2013.

Meanwhile:-

https://www.facebook.com/coachandbusweek/posts/612791692095631

EYMS Group has announced that the sale of its Finglands coach operations is now agreed and that part of the Finglands business will pass to Bullocks Coaches of Manchester later this month. The sale includes all but two of the existing Finglands coach fleet and all staff employed in the coaching business are being offered jobs at Bullocks under their existing T&Cs.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Aircoach have been awarded best Inter-City Operator at the Fleet Bus and Coach Transport awards: https://twitter.com/Aircoach/status/388339910815404032

 

[DunsBus]

Another invitation for First Scotland East to appear in front of Joan Aitken in a few weeks' time:

Public Inquiry (47423) to be held at Level 6, The Stamp Office, 10 Waterloo Place, Edinburgh, EH1 3EG, on 08 November 2013 commencing at 13:30(Previous Publication: (2018))

PM0000923 SI

FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Director(s): Neil Barker, Kevin Belfield, JOHN FINNIGAN GORMAN, FIONA MCLAREN KERR, JOHN LYALL, PAUL A THOMAS.
CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD , LARBERT FK5 3NJ

PSV - S17 - Consideration of disciplinary action under Section 17 (The Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981)
PSV - S28

PM0000923 is the licence covering Livingston, Musselburgh and North Berwick depots. I get the feeling Auntie Joan must be starting to run out of patience with Livingston depot as the basics of providing a reliable bus service seems to perpetually elude them. Dalkeith depot was the same and we all know what happened there...

 

[overthewater]

Shutting the doors is not really an option, since its FAR to big just to close down, since there is nothing in easy reach by any other company to save the day. First either has to spend the money or sell it off as a write off.

Its just strange how West Lothian network is just poor, and carries very little passengers. Even during the festival said services were carrying very little passengers compered to other first routes like 38, 62, 95 etc.

 

[DunsBus]

Shutting the doors is not really an option, since its FAR to big just to close down, since there is nothing in easy reach by any other company to save the day. First either has to spend the money or sell it off as a write off.

Its just strange how West Lothian network is just poor, and carries very little passengers. Even during the festival said services were carrying very little passengers compered to other first routes like 38, 62, 95 etc.

Problem is, it's Livingston that's dragging down the rest of FSE. The attitude there seems to be one of "f**k you, we know best". And it's not just recent, this has been ongoing for many years now. If First is serious about reviving its fortunes in the Lothians then Livingston has to go, whether it's sold or closed; Dalkeith had a similar mentality and outlook and First eventually gave up on it as a bad job and closed it down.

 

[overthewater]

The big Q has to be what are this years account going to look like? Will the company get back in to profit? or just balance the books.

First has tried to do something with the depot but since a number of the routes are controlled to the Scotrail..... everyone knows the old saying.