First Group: General Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yet that is what First cascaded out of London, 10 year old double deckers. I'll be honest who ever refurbished them has done a grand job on them, but in the short term something like this has got to be done. Since First are not buying enough new buses to overhaul the fleets.

Certain Northern companies will be back to square one where yearly fleet replacements take place just to replace end of life buses, X reg replace Y reg, replace 01 etc, but never sorting out the main problem.

Jeez... First are taking in a substantial order (464 new vehicles) that may be augmented during the process plus the impact of GBF vehicles. That means they replace on something like 15 year life. They are also taking in a limited number of used vehicles from Ensign that are 5/6 years old but with the ex Jersey kit (very good condition) which is older.

This means that they're about hitting the industry average. With the retreat from various territories etc, they've also been able to weed out some more elderly kit.

It's worth remembering that some of the First businesses (e.g. FDC) have ALWAYS had aged fleets. Western National had Lodekkas that were easily 18-20 years old and that was when the Bus Grant meant that companies had subsidies to get new fleet. Same with Eastern Counties!It's true that, in later years, they didn't have the capital to spend on sufficient fleet replacement but with the rights issue, now they can focus on that.

I get to see the fleet in Bath/Wells regularly and it was mainly 2003-2005 kit with Wells's 59 Eclipses and then a lot of aged Darts and Lances. In the last year, there's been 26 new vehicles (about a sixth of the fleet). There's still some old kit to come out but you can't put right years of underinvestment all at once!!!

 

[overthewater]

Do we know where these 464 buses are heading for from this years order? before I make a proper reply.

 

[Volvodart]

This has been well covered on here before.

 

[overthewater]

This has been well covered on here before.

So Nothing going to FSE. My main point still stands.

Come December a few double deckers will have to get replace by one's which are year younger and single deckers if were really lucky will get something which are two years younger maybe 11 years old?

Which means newest single deckers in the fleet will be 6 years old (not many!), while the newest DD in the fleet will be 7. If we still don't get something from next years fleet review, the company is heading further down a bad path, since the main areas will just be operated by older fleet. We could end up like Wigan. Why would the depots keep them good, since there cast offs and will end up being replaced anyways.....

No I don't regraded Scottish Border area, from what I have heard its sperate company within FSE and properly end up hacked off soon.

 

[Volvodart]

Why not wait and see what happens.

 

[Robertj21a]

First operations giving the best returns will usually get the newest vehicles. Other areas that can evidence good potential to grow their business should also get new/newer kit.

Other areas will get cast-offs. T'was always the case.

At least it helps us identify areas that might get sold off !.

Robert

 

[baza585]

So Nothing going to FSE. My main point still stands.

Come December a few double deckers will have to get replace by one's which are year younger and single deckers if were really lucky will get something which are two years younger maybe 11 years old?

Which means newest single deckers in the fleet will be 6 years old (not many!), while the newest DD in the fleet will be 7. If we still don't get something from next years fleet review, the company is heading further down a bad path, since the main areas will just be operated by older fleet. We could end up like Wigan. Why would the depots keep them good, since there cast offs and will end up being replaced anyways.....

No I don't regraded Scottish Border area, from what I have heard its sperate company within FSE and properly end up hacked off soon.

The main reason that FSE (and FDC) don't get new buses is that the depreciation on new buses is much more than older buses. This would push FSE into loss (if it isn't already there.........). The inevitable result of allocating new buses to FSE would be (even bigger) losses, and consequent reductions/closures of depots. Is that what you want??

I'd imagine opcos that don't get new this time round will get cascades from the areas that are benefitting this year. wait and see what comes your way - it won't be perfect but then life isn't........

 

[david16]

So Nothing going to FSE. My main point still stands.

Come December a few double deckers will have to get replace by one's which are year younger and single deckers if were really lucky will get something which are two years younger maybe 11 years old?

Which means newest single deckers in the fleet will be 6 years old (not many!), while the newest DD in the fleet will be 7. If we still don't get something from next years fleet review, the company is heading further down a bad path, since the main areas will just be operated by older fleet. We could end up like Wigan. Why would the depots keep them good, since there cast offs and will end up being replaced anyways.....

No I don't regraded Scottish Border area, from what I have heard its sperate company within FSE and properly end up hacked off soon.

Surely FSE cannot be left in the humiliating situation of having to add electronic wheelchair lifts to olympians and volvo B10-m's to make them DDA compliant.

What are they going to do with all the S, T and V reg wright scanias that don't have the wheelchair ramps at the front. Most of them are non compliant especially with the original layouts for low floor buses.

FSE don't need to have brand new buses. But there's no excuse for them if they miss the DDA deadlines altogether in terms of all their buses being DDA compliant. You would assume that near 2000's buses DDA compliant would be cascaded if necessary. FSE can't afford to risk constant massive fines from VOSA because they are operating non DDA compliant buses resulting in additional big fare increases for the passengers.

Cascading in 1998 to 2003 buses alteady DDA compliant must surely be more cost effective than spending a fortune to make their existing fleet of old wright scanias and step entry buses DDA compliant..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The main reason that FSE (and FDC) don't get new buses is that the depreciation on new buses is much more than older buses. This would push FSE into loss (if it isn't already there.........). The inevitable result of allocating new buses to FSE would be (even bigger) losses, and consequent reductions/closures of depots. Is that what you want??

I'd imagine opcos that don't get new this time round will get cascades from the areas that are benefitting this year. wait and see what comes your way - it won't be perfect but then life isn't........

Will FSE have a fully DDA compliant fleet come the deadline?

If not it's a ridiculous situation.

 

[overthewater]

Actually It seem FSE is right on the edge, its either broke even or still in the red.

If the cascades from other areas where like 5 years old then may we might just get away with it but were not seeing this, the area got 12 year old buses instead this year.

First will not miss the DAA deadline, FSE will have A DDA by 2016 or earlier.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Isn't this going into the realms of hypotheticals?

Who knows what First are going to do to update their various fleets around the country? Will FSE or any other firm miss the DDA deadline, at least for single decks, in the next 18 months?

The fact is that there ARE a large number of new vehicles being delivered. These are getting delivered to those fleets that have the best returns, which is understandable. For certain fleets, a raft of new vehicles just isn't going to happen, at least at the moment.

However, there may well be the case that new vehicles into the larger urban fleets may well allow cascades of mid life vehicles into those weaker fleets. We've already seen some fleets, bereft of investment in recent years, getting new vehicles (e.g. South Wales) and others (e.g. Weymouth) are due to get some welcome investment.

In the short term, there will be cascades of older low floor vehicles to replace the most elderly - the rumoured low floor deckers for Somerset will probably be 10+ years; perhaps something like W reg Tridents from Devon (purely as an example) rather than anything newer but still an improvement on P reg Olympians.

We will just have to wait and see!

 

[WatcherZero]

Annual bus statistics are out and they paint a bleak picture with Government cuts continuing to hammer passengers/operators, 8% reduction in subsidised passenger miles last year, 17% over the last two years leading to big falls in usage outside london, of 40m cut in operated subsidised miles commercial operators seem to have only picked up 6m. Statistics note that where a subsidised service ends only around half of passengers switch to an alternate service, the rest are lost. Bus journeys in London appears to have peaked falling 0.4% despite people travelling further, a 100m increase in passenger miles.

Government blames a fall in concessionary travel on cold weather in the nation at large and a boost to London from hot weather there on top of the Olympics.

 

[radamfi]

Annual bus statistics are out and they paint a bleak picture with Government cuts continuing to hammer passengers/operators, 8% reduction in subsidised passenger miles last year, 17% over the last two years leading to big falls in usage outside london, of 40m cut in operated subsidised miles commercial operators seem to have only picked up 6m. Statistics note that where a subsidised service ends only around half of passengers switch to an alternate service, the rest are lost. Bus journeys in London appears to have peaked falling 0.4% despite people travelling further, a 100m increase in passenger miles.

Government blames a fall in concessionary travel on cold weather in the nation at large and a boost to London from hot weather there on top of the Olympics.

Interesting stats. Is there a link for this?

 

[KendalKing]

DISABLED MAN WINS BUS COMPANY CASE
A disabled man has won a legal ruling against a bus company over its wheelchair policy. Doug Paulley from Wetherby, West Yorkshire, took First Bus Group to court after he was told he could not get on a bus because a pushchair user refused to give up the space.
A judge at Leeds County Court ruled the ''first come first served'' policy was unlawful discrimination in breach of the Equality Act 2010.
First said it was ''disappointed''.

 

[david16]

Blockhead's piecemeal fleet replacement policy has left First bus with what has appeared to be an impossible task to make all their fleets DDA compliant come the deadlines once he left.

 

[WatcherZero]

Interesting stats. Is there a link for this?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-bus-statistics-2012-13

 

[Volvodart]

Blockhead's piecemeal fleet replacement policy has left First bus with what has appeared to be an impossible task to make all their fleets DDA compliant come the deadlines once he left.

This has been covered here recently and it was mentioned that First could make fleets DDA compliant if they needed to, but the rights issue should speed up the fleet replacement. I reckon it would only be a problem if over 25% of the current total fleet was not DDA compliant and they were not to be adapted (assuming they buy at least 500 buses per year for the next 3 years).

 

[david16]

So are First going to go through 2015 and 2017 deadlines with not fully compliant DDA fleets, accept the massive fines and lump it onto the passengers.

Already passngers paying high fares travelling on a fleet of older buses, then come 2015 and 2017 having to pay even higher fares got out of hand for travelling on the same old buses by then non DDA compliant to compensate for the inevitable fines the company has to pay VOSA and others.

 

[overthewater]

So are First going to go through 2015 and 2017 deadlines with not fully compliant DDA fleets, accept the massive fines and lump it onto the passengers.

Already passngers paying high fares travelling on a fleet of older buses, then come 2015 and 2017 having to pay even higher fares got out of hand for travelling on the same old buses by then non DDA compliant to compensate for the inevitable fines the company has to pay VOSA and others.

There is part of the problem the areas with the higher fares and the older buses are the areas which do not make profits for first. You cant sort out other...

 

[F1Ken]

Changes are on the way in Essex and around Ipswich it seems, so First are still responding in certain areas.

Are any new buses due for the following places?

* First Scotland East ( badly needs single deckers, but the best it can be done is T reg Deckers from Glasgow.)
* Leicester
* York

I did make this point earlier, Uk bus are only spending the money where it get the best returns, thus area like Scotland east etc are not getting new buses etc because it not cost effective, i cant see South Devon getting the investment because of this point. First will stick to better areas and transfere the fleet to other areas........... It just sounds like what it used to do....

Now I may not be an expert like you lot on here but after talking to a driver today after our Dennis Trident 2 broke down in Manningtree(Essex) he said the Harwich and Clacton Depots are getting some Scania's. I'm sorry I don't have any detail but it sounds like it could happen in November.

I don't know if anyone has heard anything about this? But it sounds like its defiantly happening. Apparently (And this is the driver saying) it's cost First Essex £15.000 a year to keep up our current Tridents, I know Harwich has 4 but I don't know about Clacton. That figure sounds dodgy to me.

As I say I'm not a regular on here but it seemed like the place to say this, I do apologise if it's irrelevant info.

 

[overthewater]

I will say one thing I have heard each bus that operates must raise approx £100'000 per years to cover its cost, IE driver wages, fuel, up keep.

 

[winston270twm]

Now I may not be an expert like you lot on here but after talking to a driver today after our Dennis Trident 2 broke down in Manningtree(Essex) he said the Harwich and Clacton Depots are getting some Scania's. I'm sorry I don't have any detail but it sounds like it could happen in November.

I don't know if anyone has heard anything about this? But it sounds like its defiantly happening. Apparently (And this is the driver saying) it's cost First Essex £15.000 a year to keep up our current Tridents, I know Harwich has 4 but I don't know about Clacton. That figure sounds dodgy to me.

As I say I'm not a regular on here but it seemed like the place to say this, I do apologise if it's irrelevant info.

It may well be that the Scania's would be joining Essex from the Northampton operation which has been shut down

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It may well be that the Scania's would be joining Essex from the Northampton operation which has been shut down

I don't know why they'd wait til November when the Northampton fleet is available now?

As for the £15k figure, that doesn't pay for one driver for a year!! As a rough guide, a vehicle needs to be making £30-£35 per hour or £400 a day, so you're looking at c.£120k a year.

£15k covers the standing cost of a vehicle e.g. RFL, depreciation, maintenance, MOT etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So are First going to go through 2015 and 2017 deadlines with not fully compliant DDA fleets, accept the massive fines and lump it onto the passengers.

Already passngers paying high fares travelling on a fleet of older buses, then come 2015 and 2017 having to pay even higher fares got out of hand for travelling on the same old buses by then non DDA compliant to compensate for the inevitable fines the company has to pay VOSA and others.

What's the evidence that First AREN'T going to meet the DDA guidelines? How is this inevitable? How many non DDA vehicles do First have?

Also, the idea that First are going to be incurring fares and passing that on through higher fares? At the moment, First have been pursuing a policy of fare reductions as they acknowledge that they're too high and are counter productive.

 

[RPI]

I don't know why they'd wait til November when the Northampton fleet is available now?

As for the £15k figure, that doesn't pay for one driver for a year!! As a rough guide, a vehicle needs to be making £30-£35 per hour or £400 a day, so you're looking at c.£120k a year.

£15k covers the standing cost of a vehicle e.g. RFL, depreciation, maintenance, MOT etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What's the evidence that First AREN'T going to meet the DDA guidelines? How is this inevitable? How many non DDA vehicles do First have?

Also, the idea that First are going to be incurring fares and passing that on through higher fares? At the moment, First have been pursuing a policy of fare reductions as they acknowledge that they're too high and are counter productive.

maybe the former Northampton Scania's are being refurbished first?

 

[Robertj21a]

Hopefully they won't waste even more money refurbishing buses (R-V reg) that will also need modifications to meet imminent DDA criteria.

Robert

 

[F1Ken]

It may well be that the Scania's would be joining Essex from the Northampton operation which has been shut down

Interesting. Do we know how old they are?

maybe the former Northampton Scania's are being refurbished first?

New Livery Perhaps? I don't know what state they would be in (Can't be any worse than the T Reg Tridents we have at the moment. They are in worse state than the Volvo Olympians in Colchester (still loads left).

I don't know why they'd wait til November when the Northampton fleet is available now?

As for the £15k figure, that doesn't pay for one driver for a year!! As a rough guide, a vehicle needs to be making £30-£35 per hour or £400 a day, so you're looking at c.£120k a year.

£15k covers the standing cost of a vehicle e.g. RFL, depreciation, maintenance, MOT etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What's the evidence that First AREN'T going to meet the DDA guidelines? How is this inevitable? How many non DDA vehicles do First have?

Also, the idea that First are going to be incurring fares and passing that on through higher fares? At the moment, First have been pursuing a policy of fare reductions as they acknowledge that they're too high and are counter productive.

Thanks again for the info. really didn't know how pricey they are to keep going. As I say there are still many Volvo Olympian in the Colchester area in Essex and I didn't long ago see a step Dart still going.

 

[overthewater]

It seems another round in Ipswich is about to take place:

Read Focestransport blog,

http://focustransport2011.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/ipswich-bus-war-re-engagement.html

 

[Rich McLean]

Apparantly, according to someone in the know First D&C have been given 6 months to turn things around or they will be closed down. This is the reason why PCB & SC have pounced

 

[DunsBus]

Apparantly, according to someone in the know First D&C have been given 6 months to turn things around or they will be closed down. This is the reason why PCB & SC have pounced

Musselburgh and North Berwick depots were both put on three months' notice after Dalkeith's closure last year. Both depots along with Livingston (the only remaining Edinburgh-area FSE depot) are still operational, but for how much longer has been the subject of much speculation. The condition of most vehicles running out of Livingston in particular leaves a lot to be desired; Dalkeith had a similar attitude in its final years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Apparantly, according to someone in the know First D&C have been given 6 months to turn things around or they will be closed down. This is the reason why PCB & SC have pounced

What??? You mean Alex Carter has been on the phone to you and told you this.....

The generally accepted view has been that First were in the latter stages of negotiations with a party to divest the Plymouth operations (Go Ahead, Stagecoach, ??) but they then walked away. Clearly, First were looking to offload Plymouth and that's why Go Ahead have pounced.

More likely that Plymouth has 6 months to turn around; in Cornwall, the winning of work off WG is more indicative of a concerted effort to develop that operation.

 

[robertclark125]

Yeah, I'd agree. Why win all this tendered work, then decide to shut up shop a few months afterwards?