First Group: General Discussion

[Ivo]

What route would that be? The 376 is probably the most important trans Somerset route, and its Sunday service is operated by Wells as per the rest of the week

I am thinking of Bridgwater here, and the 21 specifically. It links three of the largest and most important areas of Somerset, three times an hour; on Sundays, Taunton take over on Bridgwater's behalf. By contrast, the 376 isn't really a "trans-Somerset" route, as much of it is in areas that haven't been in Somerset since the 70s - and obviously some of it is in Bristol anyway. And even if it was, I would hardly call Bristol to a destination barely five miles rom the border with Bristol itsef a "trans-Somerset" route anyway.

I've suggested York for Stagecoach before. I stick to that. Prime Stagecoach territory (given how well they run Oxford and Cambridge - two similar cities with large P&Rs) but far enough away from Middlesbrough/ Barnsley/ Hull to avoid competition problems.

I'd go along with that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I am thinking of Bridgwater here, and the 21 specifically. It links three of the largest and most important areas of Somerset, three times an hour; on Sundays, Taunton take over on Bridgwater's behalf. By contrast, the 376 isn't really a "trans-Somerset" route, as much of it is in areas that haven't been in Somerset since the 70s - and obviously some of it is in Bristol anyway. And even if it was, I would hardly call Bristol to a destination barely five miles rom the border with Bristol itsef a "trans-Somerset" route anyway.


.

Ah, you're going for WHOLLY within Somerset. Applying that rationale to Wiltshire, the main trunk service in a few weeks would be the Devizes to Salisbury service.

In reality, the 376 was/is the Bristol to Yeovil service, only being renumbered for the southern portion and having a separate registration for UK domestic rules in recent years; if it were Stagecoach, it would probably still retain the service number for the whole 40+ mile run with the usual "guaranteed connections" text. It has had new kit regularly (1991/1998/2004/2009) and always had a Sunday service (Street to Bristol).

Within Somerset, it's probably a toss up between the 21 and 28. The 28 also always had a Sunday service, and was the only recipient of new, full sized vehicles in Cawlett days. The 21 didn't get a Sunday service until 1999 (I think), and when I first sampled it in 1991, was operated by Merc 811 minis. In fact, back in 1991, there were hardly any Sunday services in much of southern Somerset outside of the Wells area (and they were Avon CC supported to some extent). The only services were 2/3 Taunton to Minehead trips, and a positioning journey from Taunton to Street as SN did the 376. Towns like Bridgwater, Yeovil and Wellington were bus free on Sundays!!

Best stop there.... we're heading dangerously off topic there

 

[overthewater]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/10114260/FirstGroup-in-the-spotlight.html

With FirstGroup a step closer to completing its key £615m rights issue today, some in the City reckoned it was time to take a fresh look at the beleaguered transport group.
Approximately 723m new shares in the debt-laden bus and rail operator were admitted to trading to the London Stock Exchange on Tuesday. FirstGroup, hurt in part by its controversial loss of the West Coast franchise, resorted to the cash-call to help it cut its £2bn debt-load and keep its investment-grade credit rating. Investec analyst John Lawson today argued that now may be “a good entry point” into the stock.
“FirstGroup will shortly put its balance sheet issue to bed – for now – and, whilst the final outcome of the rights issue will not be known for another two weeks, investors should at long last begin to focus on the recovery story,” Mr Lawson said, upgrading his recommendation on the company to “add” from “hold”.
The result of the rights issue is due to be announced on June 26, when investors will have “clarity” on participation in the fund-raising, Mr Lawson said.
Shares in FirstGroup rose as much as 9.9 pc before slipping 0.52 to 99.6p, accounting for the fact they were trading ex-rights, on Tuesday, as the broader market fell.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/marketforceslive/2013/jun/11/firstgroup-rights-issue-investec-add

FirstGroup has received a boost on the same day its shares began trading for the first time without entitlement to its £615m rights issue.

The bus and train group is raising the cash from shareholders to cut its borrowings and to invest in its future growth, with a 3 for 2 rights issue at 85p a share. Investors have until 25 June to decide whether or not to take up their entitlement.

From Monday's close - adjusting for the ex-rights - its shares have added nearly 4% to 103.8p. And Investec has become more positive on the group and has moved its recommendation from hold to add. Analyst John Lawson said:

FirstGroup will shortly put its balance sheet issue to bed (for now) and, whilst the final outcome of the rights issue will not be known for another two weeks, investors should at long last begin to focus on the recovery story (especially in student and UK bus), instead of fretting about the group's finances. If everything goes to plan (the turnaround and the fund raising), then the present share price looks a good entry point. We move to add with an adjusted sum of the parts based target price of 110p

 

[winston270twm]

Could be yet another negative for First

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=174667&int1stParentNodeID=89732

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Could be yet another negative for First

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=174667&int1stParentNodeID=89732

Of course, it isn't like Bob Crow to stir things up nor make a political point about renationalisation

 

[Ivo]

Of course, it isn't like Bob Crow to stir things up nor make a political point about renationalisation

First Group ... [previously] announced that they would not be taking up an option to extend the Great Western contract in order to dodge more than £800 million in premium payments

Need I say more? :roll: The word "dodge" alone renders this article irrelevant. Everyone and their mother knows it was the right decision given the (CrossRail-affected circumstances) and would probably have done the same thing themselves. It had little-to-nothing to do with this apparent £800M payment.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Well on a short visit to the North I found First pretty good in Manchester, I really couldn't complain, well turned out buses for the most part apart from the P/R/S registration Scania single deckers which are looking a bit tired and helpful drivers.

I also (shock horror) like the new First Livery, looks woeful in the photo but having seen it in the Flesh in Manchester in good quantity for the first time, I'm starting to come around to it and think it works pretty well.

Didn't really like those Optare's on the Metroshuttle though.

 

[winston270twm]

Need I say more? :roll: The word "dodge" alone renders this article irrelevant. Everyone and their mother knows it was the right decision given the (CrossRail-affected circumstances) and would probably have done the same thing themselves. It had little-to-nothing to do with this apparent £800M payment.

Everyone is aware that First Group declined to take up the original option on a contract extension & effectively handed back the FGW keys, however since the cancellation of the WCML contract with First & the whole rail franchising system being thrown in to disarray, First had been awarded an initial 28 week extension on current terms, it is the 33 month extension to July 2016 that First appear to have failed to agree terms on. See extract from RNS below, surely this can only be a further blow to First Group in terms of reduced turnover & cash flow?

Extract from First Group RNS 26.3.13:

The First Great Western franchise will continue beyond its current end date of 31 March 2013. As previously announced, under the terms of the current
franchise agreement the 28 week extension period will be activated. In addition we are in discussions with the DfT in respect of an agreement to continue the franchise for a further 33 months to July 2016.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I have heard talk that the following areas are the most likely area to get sold off are:

* Edinburgh
* York
* Northampton
* Chester

Yorkshire, Manchester and most of the south safe.

Damm , people in Sheffield would like to kick them out that is for sure

 

[MK Tom]

By the south I assume we're including Somerset and Avon there? I visit Bath a fair bit and the fleet there isn't that far off the quality of the Northampton one. Very few vehicles in the new livery, absurdly high fares, etc. I've been told it's a sell off candidate recently.

 

[overthewater]

By the south I assume we're including Somerset and Avon there? I visit Bath a fair bit and the fleet there isn't that far off the quality of the Northampton one. Very few vehicles in the new livery, absurdly high fares, etc. I've been told it's a sell off candidate recently.

Bath could get sold off? but why? its in the black, its just needs some new buses which should appear from the share agreement.

Since we already know about cuts back, it should be safer in that area.

 

[Volvodart]

Bath are due 11 Streetlites this year.

 

[overthewater]

Damm , people in Sheffield would like to kick them out that is for sure

Get on a stagecoach bus if your not happy

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

By the south I assume we're including Somerset and Avon there? I visit Bath a fair bit and the fleet there isn't that far off the quality of the Northampton one. Very few vehicles in the new livery, absurdly high fares, etc. I've been told it's a sell off candidate recently.

Absolutely but to compare Bath as being nearly as bad as Northampton is stratospherically wide of the mark!

Much of the Bath fleet dates from 2004-6, with 05/06 plate Darts and 05 Solos and 54/55 plate Eclipses. There's also a smattering of slightly older 53 plate Volvo B7TLs.

Then you have the two extremes. Some elderly kit constituting about 8 Lances and some step floor Darts (all due for imminent replacement) and some early low floor Darts that are also getting on but probably will go next year. However, this is also balanced by brand new kit viz e400 hybrids on P&R and e200s. Also, new Streetlites are due for the main X39 service and are, I think, behind schedule.

Compare that to a Northampton fleet that was/is constituted by almost entirely life expired kit, save for two deckers.

As for selling off, get the person who told you that, pin them to the wall, and hit them with a wet halibut There's been no talk of that, and if you went to Bristol, you'd see that they've proportionately got as few vehicles painted. FSA have tended not to do odd buses, but have been painting either for specific routes (X18 or Bath Uni) or other promo liveries such as the Express Yourself for the Portishead services.

The infamous disposal list had Somerset on there but the view was that was Taunton and Bridgwater, and possibly Weston and Wells.

 

[tbtc]

FSA have tended not to do odd buses, but have been painting either for specific routes (X18 or Bath Uni) or other promo liveries such as the Express Yourself for the Portishead services

That's a much better approach than the random assortment we have in South Yorkshire.

Initially it was the X78 (Sheffield - Rotherham - Doncaster) that was the only route with repainted buses, which elevated its status a little.

Then the 75 (a busy cross city route in Sheffield).

Now (with many buses left unpainted) it's any old bus on any old route (with no logic to what gets repainted and what routes repainted buses are used on).

The FSA approach seems the right one.

 

[34D]

Some FG staff I'm friends with have statuses (statae?) on facebook this afternoon suggesting FGW will pass to DOR.

 

[Ivo]

Short Somerset summary...

Bath's fleet could not be much more varied. It has everything from 1994 Darts and Lances to 2012 E400Hs. It should also have 2013 Streetlites, but they keep getting put back - they have slipped from April to "next week". But the network is self-sufficient for the most part; there are a couple of lame ducks but these are negated by several heavyweights, most obviously the 18 and X39. Stay away from the ex-Sheffield S-reg Darts like your life depends on it.

Weston-super-Mare is like Bath on a smaller scale, but with less junk and equally less especially new stuff (and no Sheffield Darts). It has fewer routes but only has two real moneymakers, or three during the Summer when the 112 comes into its own. Received some high-spec E400s from Plymouth about a year ago. Two routes are being withdrawn next month.

Wells is basically an outstation of Bath. Most vehicles are either mid-90s or 2009 Eclipses. Does very well off the 376 to Bristol, but otherwise has nothing to speak of. One route is being withdrawn next month and another reduced to two-hourly for most of the route.

Bridgwater is a dump and the most likely sale. Only has one route to speak of, the 21 as mentioned a few days ago, which itself uses early 2000s Solars. The town network is being reduced to one route next month.

Taunton is a big unknown - the network is being overhauled. Plenty of new buses but plenty of old stuff too. No other comment can be made until its changes are better understood.

Bristol Country routes into Somerset are self-sufficient but, with the exception of the X2 and X3, tend to use fairly old and often worn out vehicles, including Step Darts. All other money-spinning Country routes operate into Bristol from elsewhere.

In shorrt, Bridgwater is vulnerable, and Taunton may be if they fluff the overhaul. Otherwise, Somerset is staying in First colours.

Except Yeovil, but no-one cares about Yeovil any more so I couldn't comment one way or the other.

 

[MK Tom]

As for selling off, get the person who told you that, pin them to the wall, and hit them with a wet halibut

Done.

Compare that to a Northampton fleet that was/is constituted by almost entirely life expired kit, save for two deckers.

I'm told those two deckers aren't in service after the service cuts, but the Citybuses somehow still are (good that they are from a ride quality standpoint).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Done.



I'm told those two deckers aren't in service after the service cuts, but the Citybuses somehow still are (good that they are from a ride quality standpoint).

Passing the depot on Thursday night and 38098 was in the entrance so had obviously been out, and 38121 also had moved since Tuesday.

The Geminis looked in the same position as on Tuesday though

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If I had shares in FirstGroup I'd be a bit worried... Drivers in West Yorkshire seem noticably more miserable in recent weeks (trouble at t'mill perhaps?) and this being very much a First heartland since they (well, Badgerline) bought out Yorkshire Rider. Centrebus (Holdings) have been growing their share of the market in the last couple of years in West Yorkshire so I'd consider them a possible 'dark horse' to take over in York if it gets binned.

 

[34D]

Centrebus (Holdings) have been growing their share of the market in the last couple of years in West Yorkshire so I'd consider them a possible 'dark horse' to take over in York if it gets binned.

Except centrebus have recently lost a few tendered routes in Leeds, and are likely to suffer when airport buses get their pruning thjs year.

 

[MK Tom]

BTW does anyone on here think First will now try to sell Northampton's 2/4/4A off to Uno? Or will they just close it down? Because despite their spin in the media I'm positive the routes won't turn a profit with the new competition from the 16/17 and 21, and with the 15 from August. It seems to me like the operation wouldn't sell so they made it smaller and will now try again.

 

[robertclark125]

TBH MKtom, I don't think First has a clue what it wants to do with Northampton right now.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Get on a stagecoach bus if your not happy

A large number of areas in Sheffield are FSY buses only

 

[markie73]

TBH MKtom, I don't think First has a clue what it wants to do with Northampton right now.

First has never had a clue when it comes to the Northampton operation, hence the sorry state that it's is in now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

BTW does anyone on here think First will now try to sell Northampton's 2/4/4A off to Uno? Or will they just close it down? Because despite their spin in the media I'm positive the routes won't turn a profit with the new competition from the 16/17 and 21, and with the 15 from August. It seems to me like the operation wouldn't sell so they made it smaller and will now try again.

Well it would make sense if First did sell the 2,4 and 4A to Uno, Uno wants to expand even further in the town so this could be the 'launch pad' for their plans and hopefully the remaining drivers and depot staff could transfer across to Uno as part the deal? and would save jobs - that is, of course it pans out that way but who knows what will happen when it comes to First! although the competion from Stagecoach and Uno in the town wont help the operation in the long term or even the short term.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First has never had a clue when it comes to the Northampton operation, hence the sorry state that it's is in now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well it would make sense if First did sell the 2,4 and 4A to Uno, Uno wants to expand even further in the town so this could be the 'launch pad' for their plans and hopefully the remaining drivers and depot staff could transfer across to Uno as part the deal? and would save jobs - that is, of course it pans out that way but who knows what will happen when it comes to First! although the competion from Stagecoach and Uno in the town wont help the operation in the long term or even the short term.

The question is why would Uno wish to TUPE across drivers on existing TCEs when they can compete and win anyway. Really hate to say it but I do fear for the existing drivers

 

[overthewater]

Why would Uno want to buy the operations? Saying that Maybe Stagecoach and uno can operate side by side in the town, it wont do any harm in the short term or even the long term to have something to drive up the standards.

 

[Sandy Drew]

Not a great update from the Guardian in the last hour...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/.../jun/17/firstgroup-downgrade-ubs-rights-issue

 

[robertclark125]

I'm sorry to ask this, but, what's the chances of Firstgroup possibly going bust?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm sorry to ask this, but, what's the chances of Firstgroup possibly going bust?

Highly unlikely. Rights issue is underwritten. Also, it's the old mantra of "you owe the bank £100 and can't pay it back, you have a problem. You owe them £100m and can't pay it back, THEY have a problem" - too much money at risk to let them go down anyway.