First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Pretty long-ass way of getting to the Eastern District, going via Park Campus. I wouldn't call this a serious threat to the 2. It looks more like a service to help university students that take up cheap residences in Lumbertubs and Rectory Farm and all those fine estates.

What if it goes via town centre?

 

[MK Tom]

What if it goes via town centre?

That'd be a pretty weird V-shaped route. I assumed the registration said from Park Campus because it was just an extension of the existing 21. But you could be right. Then again the 2 is already competed with by Stagecoach's 1 and 7.

 

[markie73]

That'd be a pretty weird V-shaped route. I assumed the registration said from Park Campus because it was just an extension of the existing 21. But you could be right. Then again the 2 is already competed with by Stagecoach's 1 and 7.

Sounds like the 21 will continue to Rectory Farm via the Bus Station, but then again it could follow part of the existing Stagecoach 7 route from the University via Moulton Park to Booth Lane Campus then onto Rectory Farm OR via Moulton Park and Brickyard Spinney Road and Moulton Lane to Rectory Farm where it terminates and returns to the University in the opposite direction, just a thought....

Could Stagecoach have a competitor on their Moulton Park and Booth Lane services?, if so it will be interesting to see the outcome.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pretty long-ass way of getting to the Eastern District, going via Park Campus. I wouldn't call this a serious threat to the 2. It looks more like a service to help university students that take up cheap residences in Lumbertubs and Rectory Farm and all those fine estates.

It would not at all surprise me if Stagecoach have plans to mount an assault on First Northampton's service 2 though as they seem to be in attack mode against First Northampton just recently!.

You share the same opinion as me then? when it comes to these fine estates in our wonderful eastern district here in Northampton!!

 

[overthewater]

Sounds like the 21 will continue to Rectory Farm via the Bus Station, but then again it could follow part of the existing Stagecoach 7 route from the University via Moulton Park to Booth Lane Campus then onto Rectory Farm OR via Moulton Park and Brickyard Spinney Road and Moulton Lane to Rectory Farm where it terminates and returns to the University in the opposite direction, just a thought....

Could Stagecoach have a competitor on their Moulton Park and Booth Lane services?, if so it will be interesting to see the outcome.

It would make the CC and OFT very happy.....

It would not at all surprise me if Stagecoach have plans to mount an assault on First Northampton's service 2 though as they seem to be in attack mode against First Northampton just recently!.

You share the same opinion as me then? when it comes to these fine estates in our wonderful eastern district here in Northampton!!

I still think if Stagecoach get hold of No2 it should be extended down to joined only the 16/17 and also reroute via hospital to create a circular.

 

[markie73]

It would make the CC and OFT very happy.....




I still think if Stagecoach get hold of No2 it should be extended down to joined only the 16/17 and also reroute via hospital to create a circular.

Stagecoach have already thought of that one!, the service 1 which covers a large part of the eastern district has recently been extended to serve Brackmills (replacing the 52) and also the Hospital.

The 16 operates to and from Ecton Brook which is a totally different route to the Rectory Farm service (apart from the Wellingborough Road and Weston Favell Centre which is Stagecoach alley) and the 17 has been discontinued and is now part of another Stagecoach service.

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach have already thought of that one!, the service 1 which covers a large part of the eastern district has recently been extended to serve Brackmills (replacing the 52) and also the Hospital.

The 16 operates to and from Ecton Brook which is a totally different route to the Rectory Farm service (apart from the Wellingborough Road and Weston Favell Centre which is Stagecoach alley) and the 17 has been discontinued and is now part of another Stagecoach service.

the 16 should operate via Hospital before heading into town centre, that is what is I what I mean.

 

[MK Tom]

I really can't see First, Stagecoach AND Uno all competing on the Rectory Farm corridor. Uno's routes up until now have all been University-focused. They're in Northampton through a deal with the uni, so it'd make more sense if this was a Rectory Farm extension of the 21 from the Park Campus end, for the use of students. There is a lot of cheap housing out in those NDC estates.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why Stagecoach haven't gone after the 4A when they have gone after everything else.

 

[317 forever]

First could keep DM, even after the forthcoming Hornchurch-area losses, as a base for future TfL tenders and rail replacement duties. It could then join First Essex Buses, in a sense replicating 1995-97 when their only London operation was an extension of Thamesway.

I wonder whether First had discussions with many other companies regarding London disposals? If so, they could reapproach these companies about other potential disposals.

 

[Ivo]

[Dalkeith] has been sold to Morrisons who are building a new supermarket on the site.

Is it me or do Morrisons like former transport sites? So much former railway land seems to have been taken over by them, and a large number of bus depots - to give an obvious example from my perspective, Bath's old depot - are now owned by them too.

That'd be a pretty weird V-shaped route. I assumed the registration said from Park Campus because it was just an extension of the existing 21. But you could be right. Then again the 2 is already competed with by Stagecoach's 1 and 7.

V-shaped routes really aren't that rare. They aren't always convenient for longer journeys, but sometimes they can be useful operationally. Services 54 and 56 in Chelmsford, which operate to a combined 10-minute frequency (at one stage it was 8bph), are a good example of this.

[Dagenham] could then join First Essex Buses, in a sense replicating 1995-97 when their only London operation was an extension of Thamesway.

That hardly counts as an extension my opinion

I seem to recall travelling on a Lynx - not that I knew it was a Lynx at the time - on the 2 from Southend to Romford once (at the time it continued to Walthamstow), and that is literally it. A couple of other Romford to Essex routes aside, one of which (the 351) survived until fairly recently, I'm not aware of them even having any other London routes at the time.

 

[DunsBus]

Is it me or do Morrisons like former transport sites? So much former railway land seems to have been taken over by them, and a large number of bus depots - to give an obvious example from my perspective, Bath's old depot - are now owned by them too.

Actually at one point it looked like Sainsbury's were going to be the ones building a supermarket on the site of Dalkeith depot. It had actually been sold some years ago to Forrest Developments who then leased it back to First. The intention had been to replace both Dalkeith and Musselburgh depots with a new facility on the eastern edge of Dalkeith, but this never happened and by the time Dalkeith depot finally closed last summer Sainsbury's had lost interest in developing the site. It was put up on the market again and this time Morrisons were the successful bidder; they've been very quick to start, too.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Fairly sure there were a few First (Thamesway/ex-Eastern National Citybus) routes in London before they acquired Capital Citybus.

Off the top of my head, I think they never lost control of these mini/midibus routes:
193 Romford - Emerson Park
362 Hainault area
462 Hainault area

Possibly the W9 as well.

And possibly others - from their garage at Ponders End, mostly, I think. But Eastern National had done such a bad job of their initial LRT contracts in the mid-to late 80s (taking over most of the routes operated by the old LT Loughton garage, for starters), that they severely scaled back their operations in Greater London for a time.

 

[markie73]

I really can't see First, Stagecoach AND Uno all competing on the Rectory Farm corridor. Uno's routes up until now have all been University-focused. They're in Northampton through a deal with the uni, so it'd make more sense if this was a Rectory Farm extension of the 21 from the Park Campus end, for the use of students. There is a lot of cheap housing out in those NDC estates.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why Stagecoach haven't gone after the 4A when they have gone after everything else.

The 4A is not a very busy route and does not operate to the same frequency as the 4 so maybe Stagecoach don't see the point in competing with First on on the 4A route.

No doubt things will change though.

 

[F Great Eastern]

More news from Aircoach in Dublin

Additional Cork route service added
Aircoach have added a new late night service from Cork to Dublin Airport via Dublin City Center to increase the frequency from 17 daily to 18 daily. It will depart from Cork at 23:00, arriving into Dublin City at 02:00 and the Airport at 02:20.

Withdrawl of Ballsbridge Route
The Donnybrook - Ballsbridge - City Centre - Airport route will be withdrawn from the 21st April 2013. This becomes the second route to be withdrawn since December leaving the company now with 5 routes.

This route was the first route that Aircoach ran when it was founded in 1999. It used to run half hourly along with a 15 minute frequency service on the Leopardstown - Sandyford - Donnybrook - City Centre - Airport route which gave a combined frequency of every 10 minutes through the sections served by both routes.

The Ballsbridge route was effected by the economic downturn and taxis illegally poaching passengers according to a friend who lives in Dublin. It means that five locations, mostly serving hotels and one conference center will no longer have an Aircoach service post 21st April. Apart from those five stops, the other ten on the Ballsbridge route will continue to have a service since they are served also by the Leopardstown route.

 

[tbtc]

I'm a bit puzzled as to why Stagecoach haven't gone after the 4A when they have gone after everything else.

Given that these Stagecoach services all require additional resources, it'd make sense for them to introduce them bit by bit - leaving the least desirable bits until last (by which time First may have made their minds up!)

 

[MK Tom]

Given that these Stagecoach services all require additional resources, it'd make sense for them to introduce them bit by bit - leaving the least desirable bits until last (by which time First may have made their minds up!)

I would've thought that'd be the 28.

 

[Blindtraveler]

any news on what if anything is expected to happen to whats left of Scotland Easts East Lothian runs? V quiet these days and drivers seam v unhappy.

 

[DunsBus]

any news on what if anything is expected to happen to whats left of Scotland Easts East Lothian runs? V quiet these days and drivers seam v unhappy.

Service changes registered for the end of May - no withdrawals, though,

 

[Blindtraveler]

one final crack at it? Notice 108 going to the fort, about time, take pressure off lothians 30

 

[TheManWho]

Off the top of my head, Thamesway ran the following routes at some point or other:
191, 193, 214, 307, 362, 379, 462, D8, D9, W9, W13, they also ran a number of routes into the London area including the 2, 151, 251, 351/2 (Eastern National) and 551.

Fairly sure there were a few First (Thamesway/ex-Eastern National Citybus) routes in London before they acquired Capital Citybus.

Off the top of my head, I think they never lost control of these mini/midibus routes:
193 Romford - Emerson Park
362 Hainault area
462 Hainault area

Possibly the W9 as well.

And possibly others - from their garage at Ponders End, mostly, I think. But Eastern National had done such a bad job of their initial LRT contracts in the mid-to late 80s (taking over most of the routes operated by the old LT Loughton garage, for starters), that they severely scaled back their operations in Greater London for a time.

 

[Ivo]

Too young to remember this probably...

 

[radamfi]

Thamesway were such a big player in London that I didn't realise at first that they were primarily based in Essex. Aside from their many LT contracts and commercial services running in from Essex, there was the famous City Saver coach service between Victoria, Lakeside, Basildon and Southend competing with the Southend Transport X1. At the time it would be hard to believe that the frequent coach services would face such a spectacular collapse.

 

[Ivo]

The famous City Saver coach service between Victoria, Lakeside, Basildon and Southend competing with the Southend Transport X1. At the time it would be hard to believe that the frequent coach services would face such a spectacular collapse.

The main reason the service was so popular was because the LTS was so hopeless! It wasn't called The Misery Line for nothing. Once the service improved adequately, the coaches became loss makers. In truth, ST especially were too dependent on them; at one stage they had more coaches than buses even though the London routes were virtually all they had*! And by the time the services merged in roughly 2001, there was very little demand for the service - and it was only a matter of time before the inevitable happened.

As for the City Saver, it was timed to run five minutes in front of the X1 during the journey - a somewhat notorious move than was partially to blame for ST being on the verge of bankruptcy in roughly 1993.

Now, the (recent) National Express 090 is the only coach service between Southend and London, and one of just three overall; the others are the daily 305 to Liverpool, and the hourly X30 to Stansted Airport.

* Upon deregulation of bus services in 1986, ST had just 51 buses - mostly Fleetlines - and 66 coaches.

 

[robertclark125]

Not previously reported on here, but Glenvale transport t/a Stagecoach in Merseyside's takeover of Chester and Rock Ferry from First has been cleared by the OFT. Full text will be available on their website shortly.

 

[bluenoxid]

First Leicester Twitter is advising of new vacancies for driving staff.

 

[overthewater]

It seems First will be staying in northampton on two corridors:

First
PF0007045/4 - NORTHAMPTON TRANSPORT LTD, THE BUS DEPOT, ST. JAMES ROAD, NORTHAMPTON, NN5 5JD
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Kings Heath and Northampton given service number 21/29/30 effective from 09-Jun-2013.

PF0007045/5 - NORTHAMPTON TRANSPORT LTD, THE BUS DEPOT, ST. JAMES ROAD, NORTHAMPTON, NN5 5JD
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between GREYFRIARS BUS STATION and CASEWELL ROAD/SALTHOUSE ROAD given service number 23 effective from 09-Jun-2013.

PF0007045/27 - NORTHAMPTON TRANSPORT LTD, THE BUS DEPOT, ST. JAMES ROAD, NORTHAMPTON, NN5 5JD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Northampton and Blackthorn given service number 2 effective from 09-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007045/69 - NORTHAMPTON TRANSPORT LTD, THE BUS DEPOT, ST. JAMES ROAD, NORTHAMPTON, NN5 5JD
Variation Accepted: Operating between NORTHAMPTON BUS STATION and NORTHAMPTON, ACRE LANE given service number 4A effective from 09-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007045/70 - NORTHAMPTON TRANSPORT LTD, THE BUS DEPOT, ST. JAMES ROAD, NORTHAMPTON, NN5 5JD
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between NORTHAMPTON BUS STATION and NORTHAMPTON, CAMP HILL given service number 12 effective from 09-Jun-2013.

PF0007045/72 - NORTHAMPTON TRANSPORT LTD, THE BUS DEPOT, ST. JAMES ROAD, NORTHAMPTON, NN5 5JD
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between NORTHAMPTON BUS STATION and NORTHAMPTON MEREWAY TESCO given service number 28 effective from 09-Jun-2013.


Stagecoach
PF0007071/115 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Variation Accepted: Operating between Northampton Bus Station and Northampton Bus Station given service number 4 effective from 09-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007071/217 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Variation Accepted: Operating between Ecton Brook and Holly Lodge Drive given service number 16/16X/17 effective from 09-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007071/338 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Northampton and Sunnyside given service number 3 effective from 09-Jun-2013.

 

[MK Tom]

SC have canceled the 3 but First have only put in a variation on the 4A? What happens to Sunnyside?

Oh wait I missed the SC 4. Lol.

 

[Jeni]

http://hsprod.investis.com/servlet/...35513260&ir_client_id=2899&transform=newsitem

Invitation to Comment

Completed acquisition by The Diamond Bus Company Limited of the bus business of FirstGroup plc in Redditch and Kidderminster

The Office of Fair Trading is considering whether this agreement has resulted in the creation of a relevant merger situation under the merger provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002 and, if so, whether the creation of that situation has resulted, or may be expected to result, in a substantial lessening of competition within any market or markets in the United Kingdom for goods or services.

Affected sector: bus services

Please send written representations about any competition or public interest issues to:

Carlos Martínez Rico
Office of Fair Trading
Fleetbank House
2-6 Salisbury Square
London EC4Y 8JX
Email: carlos.martinez@oft.gsi.gov.uk
Fax: 020 7211 8916

to arrive by 2 May 2013.

 

[markie73]

SC have canceled the 3 but First have only put in a variation on the 4A? What happens to Sunnyside?

Oh wait I missed the SC 4. Lol.

Well stagecoach will be getting the existing First service 4 then?, I am interested to see the 16 and the 17 which stagecoach intend to run via holly lodge drive as well.

Surely first cant sustain a operation with only two routes in the town?, their cuts are even more savage then we thought they would be,.

 

[Ivo]

http://hsprod.investis.com/servlet/...35513260&ir_client_id=2899&transform=newsitem

Invitation to Comment

Completed acquisition by The Diamond Bus Company Limited of the bus business of FirstGroup plc in Redditch and Kidderminster

The Office of Fair Trading is considering whether this agreement has resulted in the creation of a relevant merger situation under the merger provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002 and, if so, whether the creation of that situation has resulted, or may be expected to result, in a substantial lessening of competition within any market or markets in the United Kingdom for goods or services.

Affected sector: bus services

Please send written representations about any competition or public interest issues to:

Carlos Martínez Rico
Office of Fair Trading
Fleetbank House
2-6 Salisbury Square
London EC4Y 8JX
Email: carlos.martinez@oft.gsi.gov.uk
Fax: 020 7211 8916

to arrive by 2 May 2013.

This was inevitable in my opinion. If Barnstaple couldn't clear the OFT, then why should Redditch - a town twice the size of Barnstaple - do so? The buying party aside, the circumstances are essentially the same as in the former.

 

[MK Tom]

Well stagecoach will be getting the existing First service 4 then?, I am interested to see the 16X and the 17 which stagecoach intend to run via holly lodge drive as well.

Surely first cant sustain a operation with only two routes in the town?, their cuts are even more savage then we thought they would be,.

Pretty much what we've been expecting for the last month or two. And no, it's not sustainable, it's not meant to be. Drivers are calling it a two-stage sell off.