First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

If there DO sell off London and it get the £80M what are there going to do about the rest of "Basket Cases" depots? that taking away money there dont have?

 

[bb21]

My father told me earlier today that a First driver in London told him they were getting sold. I don't know if this is true or not, and have no evidence to prove it. But for all we know it might be true, and there must be at least a chance of part of it being sold for a driver to claim this.

It is getting more desperate if they still want to hit their target, and each day that passes makes it more likely that some family jewels will have to be sold.

 

[winston270twm]

It is getting more desperate if they still want to hit their target, and each day that passes makes it more likely that some family jewels will have to be sold.

None of us know what talks are going on in the background / what options are being considered / what offers have been made etc

I don't think it would be the end of the world for First Group to sacrifice and sell off one of the larger profitable operations if it guarantee's the future for the rest of the group & keeps the stock market / big shareholders happy

 

[overthewater]

None of us know what talks are going on in the background / what options are being considered / what offers have been made etc

I don't think it would be the end of the world for First Group to sacrifice and sell off one of the larger profitable operations if it guarantee's the future for the rest of the group & keeps the stock market / big shareholders happy

Whats rather annoying and this is due to mr blockhead, there just wanted to be the biggest no matter what.. well there got that and now look at them?! ----- fleet, unhappy company and reduced to second place...

First group first job is to get rid of the crap, no ifs nor buts. Bye bye Cornwall, Northampton, Central Scotland and part of Deven. Then and only then can there start to look at making sacrifices, if there cant ever get this right, then what on earth is going on in the back offices..

 

[winston270twm]

Whats rather annoying and this is due to mr blockhead, there just wanted to be the biggest no matter what.. well there got that and now look at them?! ----- fleet, unhappy company and reduced to second place...

First group first job is to get rid of the crap, no ifs nor buts. Bye bye Cornwall, Northampton, Central Scotland and part of Deven. Then and only then can there start to look at making sacrifices, if there cant ever get this right, then what on earth is going on in the back offices..

It was the Liadlaw acquisition that did it, it stretched their finances too far & they had to take on too much debt to pull it off, followed by the credit crunch & subsequent management failings.

Getting rid of the crap is not going to raise the final £82 Million towards the £100 Million of UK bus disposals that they have been promising for 12 months of more, they need to deliver, otherwise they will have to consider a rights issue which the market/major shareholders will not like. Selling off or closing down the poor performing operations will only help to boost profit margins by eliminating the losses.....

 

[bb21]

None of us know what talks are going on in the background / what options are being considered / what offers have been made etc

I don't think it would be the end of the world for First Group to sacrifice and sell off one of the larger profitable operations if it guarantee's the future for the rest of the group & keeps the stock market / big shareholders happy

That is of course true, however we are at a stage where they are not afforded the luxury of time as they were a few months back in respect of hitting their target.

If they sell something substantial then so be it. The operations they sell will carry on under the new owners as they have done unless the new owners are Munto Finance.

 

[overthewater]

Selling off or closing down the poor performing operations will only help to boost profit margins by eliminating the losses.....

Its needed or the will just be a dog chasing its tail..

 

[ian1944]

Heard last weekend that East Lothian Buses had bought both Musselburgh and North Berwick depots - again just a rumour as the local press in East Lothian has reported that Musselburgh/North Berwick are due 10 low-floor deckers, cascaded from London, to replace the Royales at these depots over the next few weeks.

A couple of months ago I was in correspondence with First Scotland East at Larbert about the poor exterior display at Musselburgh and North Berwick garages - the former has an out of date sign on the front, the latter has had nothing for more than ten years (despite a promise at a public meeting of the time by Gordon Dewar, then bossman, that it would be replaced). The discussion was actually a bit wider, but the tangible thing which emerged was that I should expect to see, in due course, both garages bearing "East Lothian" signs. I assumed that this was meant to be taken as "First East Lothian", but I did wonder it would be the LB offshoot ...

 

[WatcherZero]

Even if they do reach the £100m disposals target they still have to refinance £400m of long term debt this year (after big deals for banking facilities and short term debt in the last two years) which means either share issue or bond sale.

 

[robertclark125]

The new issue of Buses magazine (March 2013) has an interesting article about the demise of Northampton Transport, written by an enthusiast who is also a resident of the town. It makes interesting reading, in that the surrendering of parts of the town to Stagecoach actually began in GRT days. Of course, Moir Lockhead was chairman of GRT then and Firstbus later. But, it would be unfair to single him out for critisism; the article also mentions how Northampton has been run from Leicester, Worcester, and now Chelmsford.

Apparently everything even fares are decided by group HQ in Aberdeen. Contrast with Stagecoach or Arriva, where these are done at a more local level.

But, the main point of the article is that the demise of Northampton began before First. The process has been carried on under them (such as the picture of a 22 year old Volvo Citybus STILL in Barbie 2 colours, in December 2012).

 

[Volvodart]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if they do reach the £100m disposals target they still have to refinance £400m of long term debt this year (after big deals for banking facilities and short term debt in the last two years) which means either share issue or bond sale.

I thought the refinanced bonds last year were for the debt due to be refinanced in 2013.

 

[BestWestern]

Oh dear, all rather bleak Glad I didn't buy any shares!

All of this reminds me of Stagecoach's woes a few years ago, when they offloaded everything they could that wasn't core business, to raise funds to buy Coach USA, which then turned out to be a complete donkey. They seem to have bounced back pretty well, albeit with a more domestic focus now. Perhaps that's where First have gone adrift, the ambition to be global can be a killer. Stagecoach has had at various times buses in Sweden, the far east, even Kenya and Malawi once upon a time, as well boats on Sydney harbour and, I think, even owned Glasgow Prestwick airport. Nowadays things seem rather quieter!

First desperately need to snap out of their current attitude, which appears to be that they have a captive market and so can afford to be very complacent indeed, certainly where the UK bus operation is concerned. Their often tired fleets, sometimes questionable route networks, poor reliability and general 'lack of care' attitude do everything to promote the idea that buses are for the poor and the desperate, which is not the way to go. It's shocking that top management fail to see this; one can only assume they are blinded by their own endless publicity, despite it so often bearing little resemblance to what's actually on the ground.

 

[WatcherZero]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I thought the refinanced bonds last year were for the debt due to be refinanced in 2013.

No, that was debt from previous years and the setting up of a revolving credit facility (bank overdraft) that runs to 2015. As of last Octobers bi-annual trading update the £298.5m of bonds expiring early this year (April I think) havent been refinanced.

http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/pdfs/investors/presentations/pre-close_update_sep12_transcript.pdf

The financial accounts at the time also show a further £100m of debt expiring this year, £51.9m in leases, £9.7m in loan notes, £46.9m in bank loans

 

[winston270twm]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I thought the refinanced bonds last year were for the debt due to be refinanced in 2013.

I would think they were, at the Half Year results in Nov 2012, First Group had a sterling bond maturing in 2013 for £299.1 Million, I would have thought that 10 year bonds issue announced on 22nd Nov will be used to address that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh dear, all rather bleak Glad I didn't buy any shares!

All of this reminds me of Stagecoach's woes a few years ago, when they offloaded everything they could that wasn't core business, to raise funds to buy Coach USA, which then turned out to be a complete donkey. They seem to have bounced back pretty well, albeit with a more domestic focus now. Perhaps that's where First have gone adrift, the ambition to be global can be a killer. Stagecoach has had at various times buses in Sweden, the far east, even Kenya and Malawi once upon a time, as well boats on Sydney harbour and, I think, even owned Glasgow Prestwick airport. Nowadays things seem rather quieter!

First desperately need to snap out of their current attitude, which appears to be that they have a captive market and so can afford to be very complacent indeed, certainly where the UK bus operation is concerned. Their often tired fleets, sometimes questionable route networks, poor reliability and general 'lack of care' attitude do everything to promote the idea that buses are for the poor and the desperate, which is not the way to go. It's shocking that top management fail to see this; one can only assume they are blinded by their own endless publicity, despite it so often bearing little resemblance to what's actually on the ground.

You may well find that First Group will turn itself around over time & the share price starts to recover, however they may go down further before they start going up significantly, especially dependent on the outcome of the £100 Million of disposals / debt refinancing news

 

[overthewater]

Remember when Souter come back, the share price was at 10p He sold Of coach USA, Hong Kong and somewhere else. he started getting rid of all unprofitable depots. he started improving fleet improvements. Since 2006 there was no more London fleets so had to flooded into other operations, ( I think there a few spare one which are not leased which can be used for helping get rid of step entry Deckers which are 15 years) plus the new livery.

 

[Phil6219]

I too heard that Bolton & Bury may be changing ownership and also that Arriva had brought in the CC over Wigan, both from a First Manchester Driver.

The thing is since Arriva has taken umbridge with the sale of Wigan to Stagecoach which doesn't really make any sense given Stagecoach had effectively sod all service in the Wigan area (I think they had an hourly service to Preston or something), even if Stagecoach get Bolton & Bury what is the difference to the three depots being under First Group control - as far as I see it nothing.

It was pointed out to me that aside from bringing in replacement vehicles for the more knackered of the Wigan fleet there hasn't been much else going on - no painting vehicles into SC livery - are the two related.

Also they really need to sort something out with the 33, during the day it is run by First from Manchester to Worsley but in the evening it is Stagecoach operated and runs the full distance to Wigan, the problem is quite a number of people are boarding the 33 in the morning and getting a day ticket which is then no longer valid in the evening. Perhaps this is more down to FM drivers selling First Day tickets and not mentioning their inability to use them on the later 33s. I wouldn't mind just I'm fed up of standing in the rain at Piccadilly gardens while passengers argue with the driver over this...

Phil

 

[mbonwick]

Stagecoach can't paint anything out of First livery as part of the undertakings they gave the OFT.

Arriva went crying to the OFT when the sale happened because the price of weekly/monthly tickets etc has fallen sharply under Stagecoach (and they cover a wider area), which Arriva don't like as they're already losing customers. Not that I can see there being any legal basis to stop SC though.

 

[bluenoxid]

In all honesty, isn't this £100m a self set target, rather than a goal they must achieve.

 

[robertclark125]

Stagecoach can't paint anything out of First livery as part of the undertakings they gave the OFT.

Arriva went crying to the OFT when the sale happened because the price of weekly/monthly tickets etc has fallen sharply under Stagecoach (and they cover a wider area), which Arriva don't like as they're already losing customers. Not that I can see there being any legal basis to stop SC though.

Which only proves why the OFT should surely clear the deal, it's a no brainer.

On the point of objections, I think if a firm objects to a takeover, which the competition commission subsequently then says must be reversed, i.e. the operation taken over must be sold, any objectors should be banned from bidding, on the basis they probably objected to the sale just because they didn't get it in the first place.

 

[winston270twm]

In all honesty, isn't this £100m a self set target, rather than a goal they must achieve.

It was a self set target, but its a goal that they have committed to raising and reiterated a number of times in stock market announcements, therefore it is now expected & if they fail to deliver it will not go down well with major shareholders / the share price etc

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Arent 33 tickets valid on both operators Similar to the X34?

also the 113 is a Tender That has been operated by all the Big 3 Stagecoach First and Arriva and they won it after Arriva Bolton gave it up it was previously Operated by the Excellent Arriva Haydock Depot.

Are Stagecoach still undercutting Arriva on the Standish 113/362 Corridor??

Can anyone tell me what the 685 is it a School route or a potential New Wigan Route in the Skelmersdale Direction? im aware of the 695 nightbus but a 685??

 

[WatcherZero]

Can anyone tell me what the 685 is it a School route or a potential New Wigan Route in the Skelmersdale Direction? im aware of the 695 nightbus but a 685??

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/pages/bus_times_leaflet_library.aspx
Leigh-Farnworth.

 

[KendalKing]

On the point of objections, I think if a firm objects to a takeover, which the competition commission subsequently then says must be reversed, i.e. the operation taken over must be sold, any objectors should be banned from bidding, on the basis they probably objected to the sale just because they didn't get it in the first place.

Thats a fair point.

If Arriva had taken-over Wigan, instead of Stagecoach would the OFT been involved ?

 

[radamfi]

Arent 33 tickets valid on both operators Similar to the X34?

As far I was aware, joint ticketing only applies to the X34. So if you intend to use different companies on the 33 you need a System One ticket. Unlike many areas, operators in Greater Manchester running tendered services in the evening are not obliged to accept the daytime operator's tickets.

 

[WatcherZero]

Bluebird takeover by Stagecoach has been cleared by the Oft, Wigan decision should be by the end of the week.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Watcherzero on the Stagecoach Wigan site it mentions a Wiganrider is only Valid upto Orrell Abbey Lakes on the 685 now Stagecoach dont operate a 685 towards Orrell so could this be a future new route to compete with Arrivas 385? The Abbey Lakes Hotel is now a Indian.

685 - Wiganrider valid between Wigan and Orrell, Abbey Lakes Hotel

Also didnt know the Smartcards where not valid on the 113 Monday to Saturday but are valid on Sunday this must be due to Chorley running the route.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Diamond have confirmed the takeover at Redditch and Kidderminster happening on 3.3.13

http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html

 

[bluenoxid]

Diamond have confirmed the takeover at Redditch and Kidderminster happening on 3.3.13

http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/DiamondareexpandinginWorcestershire_69.html

Does anyone have a list of services that are going from First to Diamond.

Really appreciated.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

All services run by Kidderminster and Redditch are moving I believe. All but a small handfull of Enviro300s are leaving for Worcester, the Lances, Presidents, Citybuses and Darts are remaining at those 2 depots though from what I have read on a fleetlist from another site.

 

[bluenoxid]

All of the services on these maps???

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/wor.../pdfs/journey_planning/maps/kidderminster.pdf

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/wor...ssets/pdfs/journey_planning/maps/redditch.pdf