First Group: General Discussion

[radamfi]

I feel the current OFT activities into the North West acquisitions are really a formality. Weren't they only instigated by complaints from third parties? Presumably after the complaints the OFT were obliged to act.

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach have offered £36.2 million for the Bolton and Bury depots.

That really will make the OFT and CC have a good noise around, and it could be delayed for months. I cant see either party wasting there time.

London, I think first might only get £60-70Million and this would leave remaining pile from the crap left... First Edinburgh, Yevoil, cornwall, Northampton or even Northampton?

That were I placing my bets for the rest of the sell off....

 

[tbtc]

London, I think first might only get £60-70Million and this would leave remaining pile from the crap left... First Edinburgh, Yevoil, cornwall, Northampton or even Northampton?

What about Northampton?

 

[radamfi]

If indeed First are willing to sell Bolton and Bury, it would indicate that they are willing to sell businesses which are not the obvious laggards. In the betting, First Manchester was never mentioned, other than 200/1 'for fun'.

 

[tbtc]

If indeed First are willing to sell Bolton and Bury, it would indicate that they are willing to sell businesses which are not the obvious laggards. In the betting, First Manchester was never mentioned, other than 200/1 'for fun'.

I think that *if* this is serious then any "betting" would need to consider a depot-by-depot sell off, rather than assuming "all or nothing".

For example, Doncaster could be sold whilst keeping the rest of FSY. Halifax and Huddersfield could be sold whilst keeping the rest of FWY...

 

[winston270twm]

London, I think first might only get £60-70Million

NX group sold Travel London for £32 million in 2009 with 36 Tfl routes with a fleet of approx 400 buses.

Pro rota First Groups remaining London business with 883 buses & 57 Tfl routes, I would think that a sale price could be more in the region of £80+ million (as it has some high profile/high frequency central London routes). Also First groups London business generates bigger profit margins than Travel London did at the time of sale.

As another option, if you were to base the sale price on the more recent price paid for Northumberland Park garage (£14 Million for 130 buses) then the remaining First London business could be worth £95 Million +

 

[WatcherZero]

Stagecoach trying to create a network that spans the whole of GM does ring true. As to the Oft investigations the Bluebird one was automatic and they knew it would occur before the sale went through, the Wigan one the Oft had informed them beforehand that there wouldnt be an investigation then after the sale went through a 3rd party complained.

 

[overthewater]

Im still hopeful that rest of the dead wood is pushed out from First hands..

 

[winston270twm]

Im still hopeful that rest of the dead wood is pushed out from First hands..

But its not going to raise the money First needs

 

[overthewater]

I think that *if* this is serious then any "betting" would need to consider a depot-by-depot sell off, rather than assuming "all or nothing".

For example, Doncaster could be sold whilst keeping the rest of FSY. Halifax and Huddersfield could be sold whilst keeping the rest of FWY...

most of the odds are on depots

 

[tbtc]

most of the odds are on depots

Thanks for the "winking" smile, but the examples that I gave certainly weren't on your list...

 

[Stonesourscotty]

I reckon the 575 would have to let go Stagecoach if they purchase Bolton.

Was speaking to a reliable source on Friday that the company that refered The Wigan takeover was Arriva St Helens/Southport due to the amount there losing since Stagecoach came in with today even sunday service buses being let to go past as people where waiting for Stagecoach.

 

[overthewater]

Thanks for the "winking" smile, but the examples that I gave certainly weren't on your list...

Ah yes, but at least im going along the same ground as you

Do you believe any of the examples you give could be in the running to be sold off? How would that impact on the chance of other depots being sold off?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I reckon the 575 would have to let go Stagecoach if they purchase Bolton.

Was speaking to a reliable source on Friday that the company that refered The Wigan takeover was Arriva St Helens/Southport due to the amount there losing since Stagecoach came in with today even sunday service buses being let to go past as people where waiting for Stagecoach.

Tough Crap to Arriva, its called choice

 

[Qwerty133]

I reckon the 575 would have to let go Stagecoach if they purchase Bolton.

Was speaking to a reliable source on Friday that the company that refered The Wigan takeover was Arriva St Helens/Southport due to the amount there losing since Stagecoach came in with today even sunday service buses being let to go past as people where waiting for Stagecoach.

instead of trying to block stagecoach they could improve their own offering...

sorry it is arriva we are talking about they wouldnt ever improve their service

 

[Stonesourscotty]

£17.50 Arriva compared to £9 Stagecoach for a weekly #Fail!

 

[ryson357]

How much do First Group need? And what for?

 

[Qwerty133]

How much do First Group need? And what for?

supposedly £100,000,000 but they've already raised £18M of it and to pay off debt or they will go bust (or is the last bit wishful thinking (as long as the drivers get new jobs))

 

[ryson357]

supposedly £100,000,000 but they've already raised £18M of it and to pay off debt or they will go bust (or is the last bit wishful thinking (as long as the drivers get new jobs))

Oh couldn't remember. Just wanted to know. Wonder if First will accept Bolton And Bury?

 

[317 forever]

Oh couldn't remember. Just wanted to know. Wonder if First will accept Bolton And Bury?

It seems too extraordinary a bid to be "leaked". If true, we might not be far off seeing the former GM Buses back as one company!

 

[overthewater]

Is there any thing to Bolton and bury talk? South wales have been said before but logical just whitewashes this area...

 

[tbtc]

Do you believe any of the examples you give could be in the running to be sold off? How would that impact on the chance of other depots being sold off?

Based on current services, Doncaster is relatively independent from the main Rotherham/ Sheffield operations of First SY.

Halifax and Huddersfield are a little more linked to the main Bradford/ Leeds operations of First WY, but I could see someone like Transdev being interested (not unlike their Keighley/ Harrogate operations)?

Based on the idea of First Manchester being sold up in parts (rather than a whole), that is.

 

[DunsBus]

Is there any thing to Bolton and bury talk? South wales have been said before but logical just whitewashes this area...

Heard last weekend that East Lothian Buses had bought both Musselburgh and North Berwick depots - again just a rumour as the local press in East Lothian has reported that Musselburgh/North Berwick are due 10 low-floor deckers, cascaded from London, to replace the Royales at these depots over the next few weeks.

 

[ryson357]

Courtney buses seems to be expanding! Heres a link to prove it! First hates it!
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/berkshire_thames/travel_news/service_updates/?item=7391&conf=0

 

[overthewater]

Has it really been two weeks? First still wants £80M within Two months,
new rumors and talk have appeared, and both have been added to the list, but one got more of a chance than the other. If people are interested All of the account details have now been published, and some places are flasing red. Some people will continue to disagree but fact speak for themselves, Again Rumors appear there MUST be questioned.

Here is an interest Quote from Giles Fearnley:

"I cant say too much at the moment. Once we reach the end of the programme our strategy will be MUCH CLEARER: 12 months ago we carefully reviewed our whole business and decided to invite offers for some parts. We're fundamentally dedicated to developing our businesses. In that respect, were fortunate to be the major operator in eight of the 17 most densely populated conurbations outside London

"
FLEET:

"Were bang on target with the DDA deadline. by march 2013 we will have taken 950 buses since April 2011.We are going to announce further orders soon. We will also be splitting orders 50/50 between Volvo/wrights and ADL. That doesn't imply criticisms or concerns it is just good logic for a fleet our size. The majority of our new vehicles intake for the next two years will be Single deckers.
This isnt a policy change - the double decker replacement programme was skewed due to both the Olympics and TFL contracts "

=============================================

First in Northampton: and First Leicester
Odd reporsent a number of factors, including the most liklest out comes. Northampton made reported approx £50'000 in losses. Leicester figure I have heard is 4%? here still no sign in new livery or new buses,
there nothing of value in Northampton. while Leicester is 100% DDA but it has to share, Could first get rid to streamline its operations?

* Betting withdrawn: Northampton to close down,
* 13/8: For the Depot to be sold off or with Leicester
* 2/1: Leicester to be sold off.


First Edinburgh
Over the past two weeks talk come to nothing but, in the recent coach and bus Mag there talk about Glasgow, Falkirk etc, ( very little of Aberdeen) Nothing of the rest in article about First Scotland bus operations....
As it stands, Expect the Scottish Border No new buses are being bough, the repaint seems to be all over the place, and it has made £3'000'000 losses for the past financial year,

* Livingston: EVENS
* Musselburgh: 4/9
* Stirling Only 14/5 ( this odd is just lower than 3/1)
* Scottish border: 10/1
* everything Bar Border: 50/1
* WHOLE LOT? 10/1

London Depot
Talk has appeared to suggest first could get rid of London to raise the £80M required, of course its a quick fix but will first could still be left some Toxic areas which will Continue to make losses and drain profits, and its no good selling off the gold while you still left with horse crap.. both needs to go.

Could first be planing to sell off its London operations completely? No one has ever said this....... It could bring in £60m fast, add in rest of the crap maybe £20m and bingo we reach £100, and it would also help explain what first strategy was: Cut all non core bus business ie Contracts and loss makers. Stagecoach did this back in the early 00. Of course First wanted to keep London for the Olympics and nothing else?

First might also just go for a Depot by Depot sell off...

* Any London Depot - 5/6
* Everything - 11/10

First Somerset
Every other company ( bar one) on the list that was published by PT has all been sold off. Some people have questioned this but I did say this be RED Hearing in the list to confuse
but Yeovil has been highlighted as the wink link? could fit well with A go ahead company near by?

* 13/8 Any of the depots: Why has it been cut? but there still talk of something getting the chop in the southwest....

First Cornwall
.... which could also mean Cornwall, with its 9.3% loses over the past Financial year.
I can't understand why the loses are that big Even after gaining new new council work or did first really undercut? and got its sums so very very wong?

* 13/8 Any of the depots

First Glasgow No2: CHANGED
The company made a 7.3% loss, but Dumbarton has been give 40 brand new buses. Nothing has happened in Cumbernauld, but it been said there now getting brand new buses. With losses like that in SUCH a GOOD bus area what has gone wrong?

* Overtown 15/8
* Overtown and all Lanarkshire route NOT ones into Glasgow... * 14/8

Its now safe to say most of the company is safe bar lanarkshire for now.

Irish Aircoach Other Details of the current situation read Page 65. Accounts are not good reading, Could first hold tight in a hope Eire will pick up? will there be able to improve the leasing problems?
Or will a buying to found?

* 13/5

First Berkshire
The fleet is not as bad as other place but it heading the same way as Wigan, relying more on older 10 year old darts. New stock is suppose to be appearing which should kill off S & T reg buses, with Dart "52" plate from London could be drafted in to replace older X reg darts. Unless someone else knows anything else?

* 7/2 : Sell Off

Doncaster: NEW
AS been pointed out by "TBTC" is relatively independent from the main Rotherham/ Sheffield operations of First SY. Could this be linked to RATP Dev appointing Steve Whiteway" as the new Area Director North?

* 9/2

First York
Why Has First come back in? well If London fails to be sold off where else in the north could fetch a nice penny?

* 4/1

First X1 Depot
A nice sell off to Go ahead, which does not need CC, its would also take First out of Rural operations. The route busy, makes money.. etc

* 5/1

Bolton and Bury depots; NEW
Talk has appeared in which Stagecoach have made offered of £36.2 million for the Bolton and Bury depots. But Arriva have phoned in the OFT, CC for Wigain, would both parties want to waste time?

* 10/1

First Ipswich
Not big depot but after looking at the Fleet list and some of the recent service changes this could be classed as another underdog depot. Alot of P and R reg stock, nothing that stands out as a cash cow bar the park N ride which could be lost. How much will it cost to replace alot of the fleet even with T, X, reg which is also needed else where?

* 10/1

First Aberdeen
Could Aberdeen get sold off to get away from a city with to many problems? Nat Express might be interested its would be close to Dundee...

* 25/1

 

[Ivo]

Just a quick hint - Yeovil come under Dorset, not Somerset. I realise that Yeovil as a town is in Somerset - just! - but it was switched to Dorset some time ago.

 

[overthewater]

It seems Glasgow is having a major overhaul, including cuts to Cumbernauld .....but lanarkshire is being left behide.

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/glasgow/travel_news/service_updates/?item=7401&conf=0

Launch of a new high frequency SimpliCITYnetwork serving key corridors and destinations throughout the city.

The SimpliCITY network is designed to offer a simple, easy to understand network. Many services in our existing network will be re-designed and re-numbered as part of this initiative.

SimpliCITY services will operate every 10 minutes or better during the day with many routes enjoying buses every 5 minutes.

Free Wi-Fi will become standard on SimpliCITY services. Throughout 2013, around 300 of our buses will be Wi-Fi enabled.

These changes represent the biggest improvement to services in a number of years and we would like to give our customers, and anyone interested in bus services in Glasgow, the opportunity to comment on our plans.

Commencing on Monday 18th February, a public consultation is being launched to give our customers the opportunity to review and comment on the changes.

This consultation will continue until Friday 1st March and following this, we will engage with SPT before submitting final plans to the Traffic Commissioner.

The new network is expected to be introduced on Sunday 12th May and this information will be updated at the end of the consultation process.

 

[mbonwick]

I've heard that the X1 from Yarmouth to Peterborough is getting 22 new ADL E400s with leather seats etc on the 2013 order, so which ever depot(s) operate that are probably safe....

 

[tbtc]

It seems Glasgow is having a major overhaul, including cuts to Cumbernauld .....but lanarkshire is being left behide.

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/glasgow/travel_news/service_updates/?item=7401&conf=0

Interesting

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/new...3816_15601_May service change information.pdf

Cumbernauld, DUmbarton and Paisley still seem to be part of the focus, but (as you say), Lanarkshire doesn't seem to be on the agenda.

Looks a bit like a combination between the Overground changes of 1998 (?) and the Lothian buses approach around the millennium of running the same service number to several different termini (rather than using a suffix) and concentrating service numbers on low numbers.

Interesting to see several references to "Service X will no longer be operated by First" rather than "Service X will be withdrawn". Am I reading too much into some of the changes?

 

[overthewater]

Interesting
Cumbernauld, DUmbarton and Paisley still seem to be part of the focus, but (as you say), Lanarkshire doesn't seem to be on the agenda.

Well it seems that is the area where the losses are coming from, Which is strange since its a great area for bus companies..

Interesting to see several references to "Service X will no longer be operated by First" rather than "Service X will be withdrawn". Am I reading too much into some of the changes?

Maybe First thinks SPT will put it out to tender

 

[Ivo]

My father told me earlier today that a First driver in London told him they were getting sold. I don't know if this is true or not, and have no evidence to prove it. But for all we know it might be true, and there must be at least a chance of part of it being sold for a driver to claim this.