• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First Group: General Discussion

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,846
Location
UK
First Aircoach has just posted a loss of over €1.1m, previous year was a loss of over €600,000. They made a profit of €180,000 in 2010, €1.36m in 2009, €2.04m in 2008 and €1.9m in 2007.

That must surely reduce the odds of them being sold off since the losses have widened and would be a drain on the assets of First as well as being a non core asset.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
It appears First have screwed up again.......

Tfl tender results announced today suggest Stagecoach London have won routes 165 (Pvr 11), 179 (Pvr 10), 252 (Pvr 12) & 365 (Pvr 10) all off First London, which are all currently based at Dagenham depot, therefore Dagenham has now lost half its allocations worth of work.

First should have sold it to Stagecoach while they had the chance....

That's why I don't understand the logic in purchasing operators who have mainly/only tendered operations (like Arriva recently did in the West Midlands).
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
That's why I don't understand the logic in purchasing operators who have mainly/only tendered operations (like Arriva recently did in the West Midlands).

Arriva purchasing Midland may be more to do with increasing its presence within the West Midlands; Midland does have a number of commercial services as well though.

Arriva were rumoured to be interested in purchasing the Diamond bus business off Rotala, but doubt they would sell just that part. The only way Arriva could get their hands on that, would be to make an offer for the entire Rotala Group
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
First Aircoach has just posted a loss of over €1.1m, previous year was a loss of over €600,000. They made a profit of €180,000 in 2010, €1.36m in 2009, €2.04m in 2008 and €1.9m in 2007.

That must surely reduce the odds of them being sold off since the losses have widened and would be a drain on the assets of First as well as being a non core asset.

Or maybe they will just close down the operation? What kind of notice period (if any) is required to withdraw routes in Ireland?
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,846
Location
UK
Since the vast majority of the fleet is leased, then closing it down would surely trigger early lease termination penalties which would make it an expensive closure so I can't see that happening. Selling up though to someone else is quite likely.

Those accounts are up to the end of March 2012. Since then a small number of coaches that are leased have left according to a contact in Ireland and have been replaced by transfers of owned vehicles elsewhere in First, which obviously reduces costs whilst the successful Cork express route started in April.

That being said I'd say they're still struggling, just not as bad as they were. I believe First have said they will support the business for a further 12 months financially should they need to do so, but perhaps they would prefer to exit by a sale rather than do that.
 
Last edited:

MCW

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2011
Messages
699
Location
Leicester UK
spoke to someone official from first at a transport meeting tonight and briefly asked what was happening with Northampton. the exact answer was 'Not very much'
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
spoke to someone official from first at a transport meeting tonight and briefly asked what was happening with Northampton. the exact answer was 'Not very much'

Any hint of any plans to sell off Leicester?
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,108
Odds well come on Sunday BUT we will also have to look at other companies which are outside the RED box, your not getting £80M for those companies alone..
 

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
962
we tried prizing it out but to no avail.

to be honest I don't even think the guys we spoke to know either, and that's the honest truth

You would think that Leicester would be profitable, given that they grabbed what was Leicester City Transport. Oh I wish for the return of the red and white buses! (Cream and maroon when I moved down to Leicester in 1980)
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,108
You would think that Leicester would be profitable, given that they grabbed what was Leicester City Transport. Oh I wish for the return of the red and white buses! (Cream and maroon when I moved down to Leicester in 1980)

Leicester does make a profit, not a big one but still its in the black, even with Northampton losses.
 

317 forever

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2010
Messages
3,269
Location
North West
It appears First have screwed up again.......

Tfl tender results announced today suggest Stagecoach London have won routes 165 (Pvr 11), 179 (Pvr 10), 252 (Pvr 12) & 365 (Pvr 10) all off First London, which are all currently based at Dagenham depot, therefore Dagenham has now lost half its allocations worth of work.

First should have sold it to Stagecoach while they had the chance....

Admittedly Stagecoach have also won route 256 from Arriva in the same area. Stagecoach must have put in an impressive joint bid for all routes. I wonder whether First resisted a 2-year extension to these routes and put in unrealistic bids in the hope of eventually closing DM. First seem to want to keep LI for serving Olympic Park and central London routes. Indeed, LI is taking over route 425 from Go-Ahead London later this year.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,108
First Wants £80Million within Two months,but Selling of crap will only get crap Money, the fleet is still in a mess, no one is clear on what Firstbus UK end goals expect Few member in first.
Even taking everything that doesn't make a profit or listed below etc, I think the best raised up bring the total up to " £40-£50M ". Thus some people will not like this fact, SOMETHING BIG HAS TO BE SOLD:
NOT IFS OR BUTS:

Alot of account details have now been published, and some places it there flashing red. Some people will continue to disagree but fact speak for themselves, Again Rumors appear there MUST be questioned.

Here is an interest Quote from Giles Fearnley:
"I cant say too much at the moment. Once we reach the end of the programme our strategy will be MUCH CLEARER: 12 months ago we carefully reviewed our whole business and decided to invite offers for some parts. We're fundamentally dedicated to developing our businesses. In that respect, were fortunate to be the major operator in eight of the 17 most densely populated conurbations outside London"

FLEET: "Were bang on target with the DDA deadline. by march 2013 we will have taken 950 buses since April 2011.We are going to announce further orders soon. We will also be splitting orders 50/50 between Volvo/wrights and ADL. That doesn't imply criticisms or concerns it is just good logic for a fleet our size. The majority of our new vehicles intake for the next two years will be Single deckers.
This isnt a policy change - the double decker replacement programme was skewed due to both the Olympics and TFL contracts "

I really don't get where he coming from with the fleet, also where is details of the other First glasgow order? on top for the 40 E300 back last years. Can anyone take a guess what the FIRSTBUS end goals are?

Plus still nothing more had been done with RATP Dev appointing Steve Whiteway" as the new Area Director North, with the only thing in the north the Manchester trams. Statement: RATP continues to consider new opportunities in the uk and the ambitious plans have brought about the need for some structural changes within the RATP.

First in Northampton: and First Leicester
Odd reporsent a number of factors, including the most liklest out comes. Northampton made reported approx £50'000 in losses. Leicester figure I have heard is 4%? here still no sign in new livery or new buses,
there nothing of value in Northampton. while Leicester is 100% DDA but it has to share, Could first get rid to streamline its operations?

* Betting withdrawn: Northampton to close down,
* 13/8: For the Depot to be sold off or with Leicester
* 2/1: Leicester to be sold off.

Why has these odd gone lower? a number of current factors all seem to point one way, its could be a RED herring but who can tell.....

First Edinburgh
Over the past two weeks talk come to nothing but, in the recent coach and bus Mag there talk about Glasgow, Falkirk etc, ( very little of Aberdeen) Nothing of the rest in article about First Scotland bus operations....
As it stands, Expect the Scottish Border No new buses are being bough, the repaint seems to be all over the place, and it has made £3'000'000 losses for the past financial year,

* Livingston: EVENS
* Musselburgh: 4/9
* Stirling Only 14/5 ( this odd is just lower than 3/1)
* Scottish border: 10/1
* everything Bar Border: 50/1
* WHOLE LOT? 10/1

London Depot
This is the interesting area that could swing it for most of first: There have just lost a number of tenders...

This was postage on omnibus:
" the latest London tender results has seen First take a huge hit in Dagenham, losing out to Stagecoach. The cynic in me may wonder if this was strategic, who knows? It does free up a significant number of vehicles for potential cascade, though...."

How many buses does it free up? especial Deckers which could be shipped of for a proper Refurb just like the 53 plates from last year,

Could first be planing to sell off its London operations completely? No one has ever said this....... It could bring in £60m fast, add in rest of the crap maybe £20m and bingo we reach £100, and it would also help explain what first strategy was: Cut all non core bus business ie Contracts and loss makers. Stagecoach did this back in the early 00. Of course First wanted to keep London for the Olympics and nothing else?

First might also just go for a Depot by Depot sell off...

* Any London Depot - 5/6
* Everything - 11/10

First Somerset
Every other company ( bar one) on the list that was published by PT has all been sold off. Some people have questioned this but I did say this be RED Hearing in the list to confuse
but Yeovil has been highlighted as the wink link? could fit well with A go ahead company near by?

* 13/8 Any of the depots: Why has it been cut? but there still talk of something getting the chop in the southwest....

First Cornwall
.... which could also mean Cornwall, with its 9.3% loses over the past Financial year.
I can't understand why the loses are that big Even after gaining new new council work or did first really undercut? and got its sums so very very wong?

* 13/8 Any of the depots

First Glasgow No2: FiG no2 cover Dumbarton, Cumbernauld, Blntyre, Overtown.
The company made a 7.3% loss, but Dumbarton has been give 40 brand new buses.
Nothing has happened in Cumbernauld, on top of that First tends to do service changes around this time of year and nothing..

With losses like that in SUCH a GOOD bus area what has gone wrong?

* Any Depot BAR Dumbarton to be sold 15/8 - CHANGE

Irish Aircoach Other Details of the current situation read Page 65. Accounts are not good reading, Could first hold tight in a hope Eire will pick up? will there be able to improve the leasing problems?
Or will a buying to found?

* 13/5

First Berkshire
The fleet is not as bad as other place but it heading the same way as Wigan, relying more on older 10 year old darts. New stock is suppose to be appearing which should kill off S & T reg buses, with Dart "52" plate from London could be drafted in to replace older X reg darts. Unless someone else knows anything else?

* 7/2 : Sell Off

First York
Why Has First come back in? well If London fails to be sold off where else in the north could fetch a nice penny?
* 9/2

First X1 Depot
A nice sell off to Go ahead, which does not need CC, its would also take First out of Rural operations. The route busy, makes money.. etc

* 9/2

First Ipswich
Not big depot but after looking at the Fleet list and some of the recent service changes this could be classed as another underdog depot. Alot of P and R reg stock, nothing that stands out as a cash cow bar the park N ride which could be lost. How much will it cost to replace alot of the fleet even with T, X, reg which is also needed else where?

* 5/1

First Aberdeen
Could Aberdeen get sold off to get away from a city with to many problems? Nat Express might be interested its would be close to Dundee...

* 20/1
 
Last edited:

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
Anyone know what First would have netted in the first year had they won ICWC? I sense the win could have been the white night they needed. Must be tough to sell parts to Stagecoach.
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
First Wants £80Million within Two

London Depot
This is the interesting area that could swing it for most of first: There have just lost a number of tenders...

This was postage on omnibus:
" the latest London tender results has seen First take a huge hit in Dagenham, losing out to Stagecoach. The cynic in me may wonder if this was strategic, who knows? It does free up a significant number of vehicles for potential cascade, though...."

How many buses does it free up? especial Deckers which could be shipped of for a proper Refurb just like the 53 plates from last year,

Could first be planing to sell off its London operations completely? No one has ever said this....... It could bring in £60m fast, add in rest of the crap maybe £20m and bingo we reach £100, and it would also help explain what first strategy was: Cut all non core bus business ie Contracts and loss makers. Stagecoach did this back in the early 00. Of course First wanted to keep London for the Olympics and nothing else?

First might also just go for a Depot by Depot sell off...

* Any London Depot - 5/6
* Everything - 11/10

First Aberdeen
Could Aberdeen get sold off to get away from a city with to many problems? Nat Express might be interested its would be close to Dundee...

* 20/1

The tender losses at Dagenham would only free up 43 vehicles for cascade:

11 x ADL Enviro 200's from the 165
10 x Trident / Enviro 400 mix from the 179
12 x Trident / Enviro 400 mix from the 252
10 x Trident / Enviro 400 mix from the 365

I doubt First Group intended to lose all those routes from Dagenham, if anything they were probably trying hard to retain them for another 5 years then look to sell the garage with 50% of its work secured for a further five year period. If anything I would have thought that it is Stagecoach that have scuppered First Group plans. I would think that Dagenham’s future in now in the balance.......

I suggested last week that First could sell off the whole London operation, profits are restricted by it being a regulated market and also competition for tenders in East London with Go-Ahead & Stagecoach has intensified. The only downside for First it that it would lose the supply of midlife buses for cascade elsewhere within the group

First Aberdeen will not be sold to NX or anyone else, imagine how embarrassing it would be for First Group to share their Group headquarters with another UK bus group
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone know what First would have netted in the first year had they won ICWC? I sense the win could have been the white night they needed. Must be tough to sell parts to Stagecoach.

I think the WCML contract would have earnt First Group around £50 Million in additional profit, plus the biggest benefit would have been the additional cash flow it would have had at its disposal. Had the WCML transferred to First operation I think First could have got away with only selling off the underperforming / loss making bits of UK bus, as the government have terminated the contract & with the prospect of it not being re-let from another 18 months - 2 years with no guarantee of First winning it second time around, I suspect First are now faced with the prospect of selling off something they originally wanted to retain / and or launching a rights issue of £400-600 Million to pay down debt
 

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
962
Are the losses mentioned by posters operational losses at the various depots or are they losses after the distribution of First Group Head Office Charges to the various First Companies? I suspect that the books are not clear enough to ascertain that .
 

Mugby

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2012
Messages
2,128
Location
Derby
Does anyone know why the fleet in Leicester carries legal lettering which gives Chelmsford, Essex as the address?
Is this really where First Leicester is administered from?
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,108
Does anyone know why the fleet in Leicester carries legal lettering which gives Chelmsford, Essex as the address?
Is this really where First Leicester is administered from?

Yes. Along with rest of first midland..
 

Tomonthetrain

Established Member
Joined
12 Jul 2011
Messages
1,290
Yes. As has been said it is the whole of First Midland. Ironically some of Worcesters buses have First Essex Buses Limited names and addresses on the legals instead of First Midland Red Limited then essex address below
 

BuhSnarf

Member
Joined
22 May 2010
Messages
756
Location
Leicester
Does anyone in the know in Leicester know if the repaints have started as last we heard they were to start in January... I know we have new ticket machines so was hoping a livery would follow.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
 

Jeni

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2011
Messages
158
Location
North
Solo 53046 at Worcester has been repainted into the new livery with "WYVERN" vinyls applied, seems to strongly suggest that Worcester (and by logical extension, Hereford) is now reasonably safe from being sold in the near future.

Of course, anything could happen!
 

MCW

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2011
Messages
699
Location
Leicester UK
So hope the 2/1 in Leicester is true. However saying that if it does happen I hope there are minimal job losses.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,108
I still cant come up with £80M, can anyone firgue out how this can be done? Only 7 weeks left.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
############################

Talk is, First Glasgow are getting another new order of E300, plus E400 for there X85/87.

This now swings attention to Lanarkshire, its been given nothing and cut backs,
 

Top