First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

Dumbarton was one of the garages rumoured for closure/ sale a few months ago - how times change.

Looks like they have decided to retain it after all, but it will be facing increased competition from McGills imminently..... It’s also one of the first operations to receive brand new standard First Group liveried/new internal spec i.e. leather seated buses from group orders than were not used for the Olympics first

First South Yorkshire's Olive Grove depot in Sheffield was once thought to also be for the chop, but again it's believed to have had a stay of execution for 12-18 months. Although no new buses are currently due from group orders, they did recently have an influx of Gemini's from FWY Leeds and have cut all the fares & day/week/month tickets to stimulate passenger growth/stem decline. The Olive Grove fleet is rapidly being re-painted in the new livery.

I suspect the First UK bus disposal list may not yield many surprises this time round, but there may be a second tranche during 2013 dependant on how the current subsidiary’s that are receiving investment / fare initiatives etc perform & whether or not First Group can win the contract for the WCML second time around when its re-bid.
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Im lead to believe there got 9 "57" plate Gems for the route. expect any old crap on it, from Monday :P

Blimey Livi has gone up in the world!

 

[overthewater]

First Glasgow no2 is not out of the woods yet, as it one of the places that was making a loss, but I beleive it was not Dumbarton nor cumbernauld that were making the losses, but Lanarkshire that were.

 

[robertclark125]

Nowadays, with the closure of East Kilbride (in central scottish days) and Airdrie (1998) Motherwell is the only former SBG Lanarkshire area depot, though there is the ex Hutchison depot at Overtown as well.

 

[overthewater]

Nowadays, with the closure of East Kilbride (in central scottish days) and Airdrie (1998) Motherwell is the only former SBG Lanarkshire area depot, though there is the ex Hutchison depot at Overtown as well.

Motherwell closed down a few years ago, I dont think any of the old SBG depots still operate bar Cumbernauld. A new state of the art depot opened in blantyre.

 

[robertclark125]

Of course, for Motherwell, read Blantyre (bangs head against wall).

 

[winston270twm]

Livingston still short of buses, and the repainting of Citaros means nothing really there suppose to be 10 at Livingston, 2 are withdrawn of to the scrape year. Out of the rest you might get 3 out in service on a very good day, there never worked. Area also has seen a reduced of tender work and commercial work. In a bid to keep the service going 5 T reg B6 low floors were sent into replace R/S reg Scannys

Has First lost tendered work in the Livingston area or has the reduction come about due to council cuts?

Are there any sizeable local independent operators in the area that provide competition for tendered work & on First commercial services?

 

[overthewater]

Has First lost tendered work in the Livingston area or has the reduction come about due to council cuts?

Are there any sizeable local independent operators in the area that provide competition for tendered work & on First commercial services?

First HAS lot alot of work in the Livingston area to E&M horsburgh, who won nearly 95% of all the new work. You will be very very hard push to found any council bus cuts in Scotland.

Apart from E&M who are running around like headless chickens trying to make all these tenders route to work, and there sole commercial service No7 which is never on time and its running time tighter than badgers arse. The only other operater is Blue bus who is happily winning passengers on a few corridors; two, with merc. First has no competition, what so ever in the most of the area.

It should be good bus area, and with huge shopping complex and plenty of ind and call centres etc

 

[winston270twm]

First HAS lot alot of work in the Livingston area to E&M horsburgh, who won nearly 95% of all the new work. You will be very very hard push to found any council bus cuts in Scotland.

Apart from E&M who are running around like headless chickens trying to make all these tenders route to work, and there sole commercial service No7 which is never on time and its running time tighter than badgers arse. The only other operater is Blue bus who is happily winning passengers on a few corridors; two, with merc. First has no competition, what so ever in the most of the area.

It should be good bus area, and with huge shopping complex and plenty of ind and call centres etc

Thanks for the info,

One last question, do you have any idea what the depot Pvr is currently or depot capacity?

 

[overthewater]

Thanks for the info,

One last question, do you have any idea what the depot Pvr is currently or depot capacity?

Im not sure but the following is true:

* IT is the graveyard for First Scotland east buses.
* First has NEVER operated the depot to is full capacity, hence the reason alot of withdrawn buses are dumped there.
* Current work load need about 50PVP.
* it used to be around 65PVP before October, even then depot could hold double that I believe.

 

[winston270twm]

Im not sure but the following is true:

* IT is the graveyard for First Scotland east buses.
* First has NEVER operated the depot to is full capacity, hence the reason alot of withdrawn buses are dumped there.
* Current work load need about 50PVP.
* it used to be around 65PVP before October, even then depot could hold double that I believe.

Thanks for the info, plenty of spare capacity to expand then if it does end being sold to another UK bus group

 

[tbtc]

Under the competition rules, could one company sell a route to another company?

(i.e. not selling a depot, just a route)

The reason I'm asking is that (with Linlighgow closed) the 43 from South Queensferry to Edinburgh would sit better with Stagecoach's Dunfermline garage than First's Livingston garage - the only problem would be getting the required 'deckers over the bridge on windy days!

 

[robertclark125]

In fact, the 651 would sit better with Dunfermline, as it runs Livingston - Dunfermline. Stagecoach Fife does run a 51 between the two places, but it's only 4 journeys each way saturday, two each way Sunday.

Having said that, if Stagecoach bought Livingston, and I stress IF, what's to say that the PVR of 2 singles for the 651 could be split, so rather that Livingston operate both duties, one duty moves to Dunfermline?

 

[winston270twm]

In fact, the 651 would sit better with Dunfermline, as it runs Livingston - Dunfermline. Stagecoach Fife does run a 51 between the two places, but it's only 4 journeys each way saturday, two each way Sunday.

Having said that, if Stagecoach bought Livingston, and I stress IF, what's to say that the PVR of 2 singles for the 651 could be split, so rather that Livingston operate both duties, one duty moves to Dunfermline?

I can't see Stagecoach being able to buy anymore operations in Scotland if First are looking to sell, as they already operate a large proportion of them at present

 

[tbtc]

I can't see Stagecoach being able to buy anymore operations in Scotland if First are looking to sell, as they already operate a large proportion of them at present

Surely Stagecoach operate fewer buses than First do in Scotland (given the size of the Glasgow/ Lanarkshire operation). Stagecoach operate across many towns/ cities, but they aren't the number one operator in any of the biggest places (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee).
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In fact, the 651 would sit better with Dunfermline, as it runs Livingston - Dunfermline. Stagecoach Fife does run a 51 between the two places, but it's only 4 journeys each way saturday, two each way Sunday.

Having said that, if Stagecoach bought Livingston, and I stress IF, what's to say that the PVR of 2 singles for the 651 could be split, so rather that Livingston operate both duties, one duty moves to Dunfermline?

It's a strange route - not sure why Stagecoach bother running a weekend alternative - can't make them much money?

 

[Volvodart]

I can't see Stagecoach being able to buy anymore operations in Scotland if First are looking to sell, as they already operate a large proportion of them at present

They have not ruled out bidding for the Scotrail franchise when it comes up for renewal, so are unlikely to purchase more bus businesses until they have made up their mind.

 

[overthewater]

It's a strange route - not sure why Stagecoach bother running a weekend alternative - can't make them much money?

Long story, but it goes back to 2009 when Nordi travel started the route old 632/633 weekday only. Stagecoach started a weekend service. etc

Put it this way, Stagecoach 51 can still have full loads on it and it not unheard of them having double deckers in use right now until xmas..

 

[winston270twm]

They have not ruled out bidding for the Scotrail franchise when it comes up for renewal, so are unlikely to purchase more bus businesses until they have made up their mind.

But surely if Stagecoach bid/won the Scotrail franchise they may also be forced to divest their interest in Scottish Citylink coaches as NX group did when they ran it pre First Group to keep the Dft / MMC happy

Surely Stagecoach aren't going to end up purchasing all of the First's UK bus operations put up for sale, Go-Ahead have announced to the markets that they want their bus profits to grow to 40% of group profits and a rapidly reaching the max 25% of the London bus market, so need to start looking elsewhere to grow. NX may also be in the frame for certain disposals (Redditch, Kidderminster & Livingston appear to be the most likely candidates), I think we can rule out Rotala taking part, then there is RAPT or Transdev that may be interested in any larger operations that come up for sale in the future
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Surely Stagecoach operate fewer buses than First do in Scotland (given the size of the Glasgow/ Lanarkshire operation). Stagecoach operate across many towns/ cities, but they aren't the number one operator in any of the biggest places (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee).
?

Although I'd agree that First have the largest concentration of its fleet in urban areas such as Glasgow, Aberdeen etc. Stagecoach do have control over a much greater area of Scotland which includes not only its bus fleet, there is also the Megabus routes & its share in Scottish Citylink coach network. I'd be very surprised if the a potential Scotrail franchise win didn't get referred to the MMC

 

[radamfi]

Although I'd agree that First have the largest concentration of its fleet in urban areas such as Glasgow, Aberdeen etc. Stagecoach do have control over a much greater area of Scotland which includes not only its bus fleet, there is also the Megabus routes & its share in Scottish Citylink coach network. I'd be very surprised if the a potential Scotrail franchise win didn't get referred to the MMC

When National Express won the Scotrail franchise, they were required to divest itself of the Citylink coaches.

 

[overthewater]

Its NOW Another WEEK and we had had two sell off, I believe everything comes in threes. Some new odds have appeared and some better reasoning for why new places are up for grab etc:

* First in Northampton: Evans I just cant see how this is going to change now,

* First Edinburgh: As it stands, half the company is getting improvements while the other half is being left behide. It does seems that some of the recent changes are to make a certain depot look better for a buyer?
* Musselburgh And Livingston EVANS:
* Scottish borders: 25/1
* Larbart and Stirling: 35/1

* Lea Interchange: 5/1Could London help solve some of the money problems? First would still hold 6 depots in London if this were sold,

* First Ipswich 10/1 Not big depot but after looking at the Fleet list and some of the recent service changes this could be classed as another underdog depot. Alot of P and R reg stock, nothing that stands out as a cash cow bar the park N ride which could be lost.

* Redditch and Kidderminster 25/1 Im not sure where this can get place, Im trying to think who would but it out? also said depots must be the ones that are causing the company to be in the Red. Fleet not bad but is there spare cash to make it better? I doubt it.

* First Berkshire 30/1 NEW: There has been some talk about the operations around this company. Important facts, its first biggest profit company. The fleet is now not as bad as other place above or even below, while the routes do use older stock could it be another wigan area? I have doubts since new stock keeps appearing and its been said NEW stock is on the way shortly which should kill off S & T reg buses. Dart 52 plate from London could be drafted in to replace older X reg darts. Unless someone else knows anything else? BUT just this week a solo was repainted in the new livery.

* First York: 40/1

* First Cornwall 45/1

* First Leicester 50/1 This Just something about this operations which does not seem right .

* Aberdeen 100/1

 

[radamfi]

How about some odds for the big, valuable operators, which First don't really want to sell? Do the odds include any form of shutdown, for example deregistering all routes in Northampton without a sale like North Devon? I would have thought an actual sale in Northampton would be quite unlikely.

And who is Evans?

 

[overthewater]

How about some odds for the big, valuable operators, which First don't really want to sell? Do the odds include any form of shutdown, for example deregistering all routes in Northampton without a sale like North Devon? I would have thought an actual sale in Northampton would be quite unlikely.

And who is Evans?

Firstly The first TWO companies ONLY: The odds does NOT include first just shutting up shop like what happened in North Devon. No bets will be issues on that basic, since all the know date at the moment

Second: Even money (or Evens)
If your horse's/dog perceived chance of winning the race is 50/50 it is described as evens. In this case if your horse wins you will receive your stake back doubled. For example: Your horse wins at 1/1 (pronounced 'evens').
If your stake was £10 you will receive:
your £10 back
plus your stake multiplied by the odds of 1/1 = (£10 x 1) = £10 again
that makes £20 in total

Third:

* First Manchester: 125/1
* First Glasgow No1 : 150/1
* First Norwich : 150/1
* First Hampshire 175/1
* First Potties : 175/1
* First West Yorkshire: 175/1
* First South Yorkshire 175/1
* First Essex: 200/1
* First Bath and Bristol: 200/1

 

[fgwrich]

Surely if services are that busy, its justifies First sourcing larger single deckers from elsewhere in the group, there are plenty of Dart SLF/Marshall coming out of service in London (some of which have been scrapped and no First subsidiary wants them)

Im not supprised. Bl**dy things, one turned up on Exeter/Crediton to Barnstaple Rail Replacement yesterday. God, i pity anyone having to take that thing!

 

[KendalKing]

Firstly The first TWO companies ONLY: The odds does NOT include first just shutting up shop like what happened in North Devon. No bets will be issues on that basic, since all the know date at the moment

Second: Even money (or Evens)
If your horse's/dog perceived chance of winning the race is 50/50 it is described as evens. In this case if your horse wins you will receive your stake back doubled. For example: Your horse wins at 1/1 (pronounced 'evens').
If your stake was £10 you will receive:
your £10 back
plus your stake multiplied by the odds of 1/1 = (£10 x 1) = £10 again
that makes £20 in total

Third:

* First Manchester: 125/1
* First Glasgow No1 : 150/1
* First Norwich : 150/1
* First Hampshire 175/1
* First Potties : 175/1
* First West Yorkshire: 175/1
* First South Yorkshire 175/1
* First Essex: 200/1
* First Bath and Bristol: 200/1

First Manchester is being reduced with Wigan, Birkenhead & Chester inculding Wrexham out station going to Stagecoach in late December.

 

[overthewater]

Ok? the Chances of the rest First Manchester being sold off is very very slim....

 

[tbtc]

* First Potties : 175/1

We don't have a lot to go on

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Im not supprised. Bl**dy things, one turned up on Exeter/Crediton to Barnstaple Rail Replacement yesterday. God, i pity anyone having to take that thing!

I would willingly

 

[overthewater]

This is what been postage about the stagecoach NEW Wigan fleet:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68628359@N04/8198016728/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68628359@N04/8196926539/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68628359@N04/8194796578/in/photostream/

THAT FAST!!! Stagecoach are not spent a penny on new buses for wigan and it going to have a better fleet, I dare say Chester will be the same.

 

[winston270twm]

This is what been postage about the stagecoach NEW Wigan fleet:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68628359@N04/8198016728/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68628359@N04/8196926539/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68628359@N04/8194796578/in/photostream/

THAT FAST!!! Stagecoach are not spent a penny on new buses for wigan and it going to have a better fleet, I dare say Chester will be the same.

That's why Stagecoach is thriving & First is shrinking, mainly due to charging high fares, offering poor standards of service, old vehicles etc......

Wigan's fleet will no doubt change drastically from the date of takeover, and be the most modern its ever been under First.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Looks great to see Scotland represented in Manchester

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Whats the change over date? im getting sick of riding P-HMT Excels. Scrap them straight away Stacegoach.