First Group: General Discussion

[MCW]

As well as the operations mentioned for sale, I think First should consider selling off some / all of the other smaller subsidiaries as follows:

Berkshire
Cymru
Devon & Cornwall
Remainder of Potteries
Leicester
Remainder of Wyvern (Worcester & Hereford)
Scotland East
York

The above operations are largely isolated from the main core areas, in the above list there are no doubt areas which underperform in terms of profit margins but if sold as a complete operation combined with the more profitable bits to keep route networks intact, I believe these would raise far more interest / command a much higher selling prices than we have seen to date from just disposing of individual garages. Most of the above fleets still operate large quantities of elderly early low floor vehicles which will require considerable fleet investment in the next few years.

Berkshire, Leicester, Wyvern (HD & WR), Potteries (A & N) & York at least are all around 100-120 vehicle size operations, by selling those smaller scale operations they would achieve / exceed the £100 Million disposal target but it wouldn't have the noticeable impact on UK bus turnover / profits that selling one of the former PTE operations would have

Sorry I'm late to the party (Again...)

But yes, chap, I have to solidly agree with you on that.

Living in Leicester my insight to the quality of service will be detailed, however please don't take it as gospel.

First in Leicester do alright. they have good loadings and where there is competition they are holding quite competitive rates, however, they are slowly losing out to the other main two operators in the area, Centrebus and Arriva. Centrebus compete with them on the 22's 54/A's and as time goes on First are slowly dwindling. However, on some routes First have done so well their frequency has had to be increased, and this has happened on the 14 to new parks, which is also run by arriva. (Arriva = 20 mins First = every 12 ish). It does seem to depend on the area in which they operate in and the fare structure that the competition has.

the one thing that desperately lets first down in Leicester is the service standards of both the drivers and the presentation of the vehicles. More often than not, I get on a first bus and it's quite littered, something I don't expect when I'm paying upto £2.10 for a ride into the city centre. Likewise, the majority of the drivers are really sulky, and never say hi or thankyou, Which really gets to me and other people especially since many people do greet the drivers with a smile and a hello, please and thankyou.

for what it is worth, If stagecoach or another operator bought the operation at Leicester and/or similarly sized others, then there would be a chance that all of this would turnaround completely. On a whole I don't think that First would be missed in leicester, Its been a shambles ever since Leicester Citybus got bought out by GRT.

I currently do feel for the people in northampton, especially with the level and standards of service which they are receiving. In mind this is my personal perception, but If Leicester is bad I dread to think how bad Northampton is.

 

[Ivo]

So what's worse then in Northampton - First or Greyfriars?

 

[MCW]

So what's worse then in Northampton - First or Greyfriars?

yeah true... that place is kinda like a Cold war bunker of some kind!

 

[overthewater]

I have to be honest, everyone is getting far ahead of themselves, I know I a bit bad for it but with what is coming out and what I have heard, I cant see how that list is fully possible

* First Berkshire: Very important it made the biggest profit recently, but even with cost of newer buses it should not completely destroy it

* Cymru: its another place where people just want rid but there nothing coming out or been said about this place. It also seems first are trying to make an effort in the area, plus Greyhound is staying and getting better:

* Remainder of Potteries: Another which seems to be getting more care, and was one of the first places to get new livery. Its also got newer stock and I get the feeling it could end up with a new network in 2013. Along with alot of higher end frequency, the chances are I cant see this place getting sold.

* Scotland East: ALOT of people would love this to happen but it seems its another orderly overhaul. IE Midland bluebird operations Falkirk, Stirling, Gala seem to getting lots of love and care with a real effort to improve the fleet and all new network. ( fares dont ask about them yet)... Its the First Edinburgh operations that seem to be under the knife, IE muss and Livingston. Main reason being both were/are making No profits for years and the cost to bring the fleet up to a newer levels would not be justifiable in any world. its in a worse case than wigan those two depots no profits and aging fleet which has been improved by transferring in T reg buses to get rid of R-Reg .

* Leicester/York : Its possible but I cant see this depot being sold off just now either. I might happen further down the line but I get the feeling First are happy how the depot is doing and is being left alone while there try and sort out Worse depots in the company. Go-ahead ON here:

 

[winston270twm]

I have to be honest, everyone is getting far ahead of themselves, I know I a bit bad for it but with what is coming out and what I have heard, I cant see how that list is fully possible

* First Berkshire: Very important it made the biggest profit recently, but even with cost of newer buses it should not completely destroy it

* Cymru: its another place where people just want rid but there nothing coming out or been said about this place. It also seems first are trying to make an effort in the area, plus Greyhound is staying and getting better:

* Remainder of Potteries: Another which seems to be getting more care, and was one of the first places to get new livery. Its also got newer stock and I get the feeling it could end up with a new network in 2013. Along with alot of higher end frequency, the chances are I cant see this place getting sold.

* Scotland East: ALOT of people would love this to happen but it seems its another orderly overhaul. IE Midland bluebird operations Falkirk, Stirling, Gala seem to getting lots of love and care with a real effort to improve the fleet and all new network. ( fares dont ask about them yet)... Its the First Edinburgh operations that seem to be under the knife, IE muss and Livingston. Main reason being both were/are making No profits for years and the cost to bring the fleet up to a newer levels would not be justifiable in any world. its in a worse case than wigan those two depots no profits and aging fleet which has been improved by transferring in T reg buses to get rid of R-Reg .

* Leicester/York : Its possible but I cant see this depot being sold off just now either. I might happen further down the line but I get the feeling First are happy how the depot is doing and is being left alone while there try and sort out Worse depots in the company. Go-ahead ON here:

My list of suggested disposals was just that, based on those operations all being fairly isolated / smaller scale even if producing good margins. I think the point is following the disposals of those depots below:

Northumberland Park (£14M)
Kings Lynn (£?)
Closure of Barnstable (Nil) Taw & Torridge is now thought to have agreed to purchase Barnstable depot (£?),
Wigan (£12M)
Chester & Birkenhead (£4.5M),

There's still another £69.5 Million to be raised to hit the £100 Million disposal target, there's no way on this planet that Kidderminster (20 buses), Northampton (35 buses), Redditch (31) & Somerset & Avon (163 buses), the bigger operations off the leaked list of 7 have already gone / sales agreed.

The highest price paid per bus to date is NP being sold to Go-ahead for £14 Million for 130 buses which is approx £108k/bus. Based on the quantities above & all operations finding a buyer, that's 249 buses @ £108k/bus = £27 Million raised, therefore even in very best case scenario First Group would still be short of the target by some £43 Million. The ratio for Chester & Birkenhead which is £4.5 Million for 130 buses = £35k per bus. Basing it somewhere in the middle say £70k/bus that would be 249 buses @ £70k/bus = £17.5 Million, short of the target by £52 Million. It also now sounds as though Northampton could well be another nil sale proceeds. To hit that £100 Million target they need to sell something tasty.....

 

[robertclark125]

We talk about this sell off from First, and people going on about something tasty. I just wonder if Hull Trains is a non core asset, and could be sold?

 

[Ivo]

* First Berkshire: Very important it made the biggest profit recently, but even with cost of newer buses it should not completely destroy it

You're going to have to provide evidence for this. I find this very hard to believe - how can Slough and Bracknell beat the likes of Manchester?

 

[winston270twm]

We talk about this sell off from First, and people going on about something tasty. I just wonder if Hull Trains is a non core asset, and could be sold?

First could quite easily sell off a small chunk if its American School Buses business (First Student) without batting an eyelid, NX paid $200 Million for Petermann Partners within the last 12 months for 3,300 school buses, that said Petermann obviously produces much better margins than First Student at present, but when First operate over 60,000 school buses, selling off 5,000 worth to pay down debt wouldn't make that much difference to it's position in the States

 

[markie73]

My list of suggested disposals was just that, based on those operations all being fairly isolated / smaller scale even if producing good margins. I think the point is following the disposals of those depots below:

Northumberland Park (£14M)
Kings Lynn (£?)
Closure of Barnstable (Nil) Taw & Torridge is now thought to have agreed to purchase Barnstable depot (£?),
Wigan (£12M)
Chester & Birkenhead (£4.5M),

There's still another £69.5 Million to be raised to hit the £100 Million disposal target, there's no way on this planet that Kidderminster (20 buses), Northampton (35 buses), Redditch (31) & Somerset & Avon (163 buses), the bigger operations off the leaked list of 7 have already gone / sales agreed.

The highest price paid per bus to date is NP being sold to Go-ahead for £14 Million for 130 buses which is approx £108k/bus. Based on the quantities above & all operations finding a buyer, that's 249 buses @ £108k/bus = £27 Million raised, therefore even in very best case scenario First Group would still be short of the target by some £43 Million. The ratio for Chester & Birkenhead which is £4.5 Million for 130 buses = £35k per bus. Basing it somewhere in the middle say £70k/bus that would be 249 buses @ £70k/bus = £17.5 Million, short of the target by £52 Million. It also now sounds as though Northampton could well be another nil sale proceeds. To hit that £100 Million target they need to sell something tasty.....

How about the latest rumor from another forum:

Latest rumour is that Northampton will not be sold, but will closed down with the fleet being transferred out as was the case with Dalkeith.

IF this happens then it will be a tragic ending to a proud operator that Northampton Transport once was before that takeover back in 1993...

 

[overthewater]

My list of suggested disposals was just that, based on those operations all being fairly isolated / smaller scale even if producing good margins. I think the point is following the disposals of those depots below:

Northumberland Park (£14M)
Kings Lynn (£?)
Closure of Barnstable (Nil) Taw & Torridge is now thought to have agreed to purchase Barnstable depot (£?),
Wigan (£12M)
Chester & Birkenhead (£4.5M),

There's still another £69.5 Million to be raised to hit the £100 Million disposal target, there's no way on this planet that Kidderminster (20 buses), Northampton (35 buses), Redditch (31) & Somerset & Avon (163 buses), the bigger operations off the leaked list of 7 have already gone / sales agreed.

The highest price paid per bus to date is NP being sold to Go-ahead for £14 Million for 130 buses which is approx £108k/bus. Based on the quantities above & all operations finding a buyer, that's 249 buses @ £108k/bus = £27 Million raised, therefore even in very best case scenario First Group would still be short of the target by some £43 Million. The ratio for Chester & Birkenhead which is £4.5 Million for 130 buses = £35k per bus. Basing it somewhere in the middle say £70k/bus that would be 249 buses @ £70k/bus = £17.5 Million, short of the target by £52 Million. It also now sounds as though Northampton could well be another nil sale proceeds. To hit that £100 Million target they need to sell something tasty.....

I understand what you mean, and I'm also wondering where the other £60million could come from. Didn't someone on here also say its not only about selling off depots? but getting rid off crappy areas with Debt/ no profits. We can all see what there doing in Northampton, moving out decent assets and replacing them with end of life fleets. If first speaks to Stagy and uno about taking on the routes and drivers then no payouts are needed etc... could that help save cash to be used on the debt?

I still get the feeling Another London depot will be up for the chop that was the biggest selloff so far plus its a non core asset. Im not saying First wont etc sell off at least one other Big area, but its becoming clear that first will not be doing this at this moment of time. but could well do it if ecomany gets better. I think first are better off sorting out the "non profit" areas first.
Talk has been Nat, express and Go Ahead are after most of First Scotland east, that might be where the big surprise could happen

( I since I added Leicester and York to the betting it can't be ruled out but its odds do reflect the outcome.)

 

[markie73]

We can all see what there doing in Northampton, moving out decent assets and replacing them with end of life fleets. If first speaks to Stagy and uno about taking on the routes and drivers then no payouts are needed etc... could that help save cash to be used on the debt?

I wonder if First Management have even given thought to talking to Stagecoach and Uno?, it would save a chunk of money in not making payouts to the drivers/staff and would also save jobs as well.

 

[winston270twm]

You're going to have to provide evidence for this. I find this very hard to believe - how can Slough and Bracknell beat the likes of Manchester?

It can't....., because even if Slough & Bracknell have a turnover of say £15 Million & a profit margin of say 20% (which is exceptional) that's 3 Million profit to group. Manchester which is a much bigger operation may have a turnover of £150 Million & even at 8% profit margin (expected First UK Bus margin) that would generate a profit of £8 Million.

As I've said before, First would do well to sell off some of the smaller 100 bus profitable operations to raise the £100 million to keep the City happy and plough the management time & new buses in to the larger urban areas, even just a 2% margin increase at somewhere like Manchester would have a far greater impact on group profits compared to a similar increase at Berkshire.

Personally, First should definitely retain all of Bristol, Glasgow, London, Manchester, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire without doubt. These are the areas that generate the cash flow and small margin improvements will have a greater effect on UK bus profitability overall.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I understand what you mean, and I'm also wondering where the other £60million could come from. Didn't someone on here also say its not only about selling off depots? but getting rid off crappy areas with Debt/ no profits. We can all see what there doing in Northampton, moving out decent assets and replacing them with end of life fleets. If first speaks to Stagy and uno about taking on the routes and drivers then no payouts are needed etc... could that help save cash to be used on the debt?

I still get the feeling Another London depot will be up for the chop that was the biggest selloff so far plus its a non core asset. Im not saying First wont etc sell off at least one other Big area, but its becoming clear that first will not be doing this at this moment of time. but could well do it if ecomany gets better. I think first are better off sorting out the "non profit" areas first.
Talk has been Nat, express and Go Ahead are after most of First Scotland east, that might be where the big surprise could happen

( I since I added Leicester and York to the betting it can't be ruled out but its odds do reflect the outcome.)

But First have committed to raising £100 Million to pay down debt through disposals in UK bus, any deal with Stagecoach & Uno would only save redundancy payouts and may raise a small amount in sale proceeds. Largely it would be a case of writing off the value of the asset in group accounts

 

[overthewater]

Im sure it all a game of Maths: think about it this way:

Depot A: 140 buses Mix bag new and old, Sell off would get £4.5, but the cost of improving fleet and depot is £2m
Depot B: 150 buses mostly new, makes good profits, Sell off makes about £6M
Depot C: 130 buses mostly old, Non DDA, sell off would gain £2m, but the cost for overhauling the fleet is £4m

There sell off Depot B and gain £7M there sill have to spend £6M on the other two Depot so you make £0 profits. But sell off Depot C make £2m which is spent on on depot A. Difference is you have depot which makes more money, has a better fleet and got rid of alot of older stock.

 

[swifty]

You're going to have to provide evidence for this. I find this very hard to believe - how can Slough and Bracknell beat the likes of Manchester?

Profit margin yes - actual profit no.

 

[markie73]

I currently do feel for the people in northampton, especially with the level and standards of service which they are receiving. In mind this is my personal perception, but If Leicester is bad I dread to think how bad Northampton is.

Northampton has been in decline for a couple of years now but it has got worse recently with the fleet change and the uncertainty, I remember Northampton Transport before the GRT takeover it was one of the bus municipal operators in the country.

As and when First drop the axe on its Northampton operations then we can say goodbye to a proud history as well.

 

[tbtc]

We talk about this sell off from First, and people going on about something tasty. I just wonder if Hull Trains is a non core asset, and could be sold?

Interesting idea - I wonder whether DB would want to add to their OA operations on the ECML?

 

[A0]

I wonder if First Management have even given thought to talking to Stagecoach and Uno?, it would save a chunk of money in not making payouts to the drivers/staff and would also save jobs as well.

That assumes either SC or UNO would be interested in such a deal.

From their perspective, it adds a load of liabilities in terms of TUPE regulations for little or no benefit. And I suspect in the case of SC they already know who First's drivers are and which they would want to recruit if / when First pulls out.

And if First do pull out, then SC and UNO (and possibly others, e.g. Centrebus) will probably expand their services to cover First's withdrawl, in turn recruiting drivers if they don't have enough.

 

[anthony263]

Stagecoach have decided to send at least 14 of its new buses that were destined for operation out of the Porth depot to replace the oldest vehicles for the depots in Cheshire which they have recently bought from First.

Porth will be getting the remaining 7 enviro 200's and more could be ordered if Stagecoach decide to order more additional vehicles.

 

[robertclark125]

Out of interest, does anyone have a fleetlist for Livingston depot?

 

[overthewater]

Out of interest, does anyone have a fleetlist for Livingston depot?

That well be rather tricky since all the moving around, withdrawments, replacements etc.

Also with the recent losses and cut back pvp is down around 15.

 

[robertclark125]

Been confirmed today stagecoach east scotland 22401-3/6 have headed south, to be based as replacement buses at Wigan, when Stagecoach takes over operations. However, we don't yet know where they will be stored until the takeover in January.

22404/5/7/8 to follow as well, according to the Dundee area bus forum. So, north west fans, keep your eyes peeled for some scottish exiles!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Wiggan woant know whats hit them with all these lovley buses

 

[robertclark125]

One possible suggestion is that they'll enter service at Wigan very soon, and operate "on hire" to First. Be one way of replacing Barbie with Swoops quickly.

 

[winston270twm]

I still get the feeling Another London depot will be up for the chop that was the biggest selloff so far plus its a non core asset. Im not saying First wont etc sell off at least one other Big area, but its becoming clear that first will not be doing this at this moment of time. but could well do it if ecomany gets better. I think first are better off sorting out the "non profit" areas first.
Talk has been Nat, express and Go Ahead are after most of First Scotland east, that might be where the big surprise could happen

Does anyone know what sort of profit margins First's London operation earns? I guess there is always a small chance that First could sell the entire London operation if they received a good enough offer, could that be the surprise???, Stagecoach & NX have both sold up in London in the past, Stagecoach was due to more restricted profit margins compared to deregulated areas & a good offer from Macquarie Bank (Obviously they are now back in). NX sold up in 2009 due to the levels of investment needed to grow the market share of the business. First has a 11.58% share of the London bus market, which is behind Metroline (12.5%), Stagecoach (13.14%) Arriva (19.61%) & Go-Ahead (23.54%), if they sell off another London garage that market share would shrink further...... that said the London operations do seem to be a good source of midlife buses for cascade elsewhere within the group.

I'm still not convinced Livingston & Larbert are actually up for sale, Larbert has just had a network review at the end of Oct (but doesn't seem very popular with passengers:

http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news...s-continue-over-bus-service-changes-1-2638881

While Livingston are currently in the process of repainting the ex London dual door Citaro's in to the next First colours:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stennybusman/8191159254/

And Gala are due 10? ADL Enviro 300's imminently to match those recently delivered to Dumbarton with the new First interior spec

 

[overthewater]

I'm still not convinced Livingston & Larbert are actually up for sale, Larbert has just had a network review at the end of Oct (but doesn't seem very popular with passengers http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news...s-continue-over-bus-service-changes-1-2638881

While Livingston are currently in the process of repainting the ex London dual door Citaro's in to the next First colours:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stennybusman/8191159254/

And Gala are due 10? ADL Enviro 300's imminently to match those recently delivered to Dumbarton with the new First interior spec

I have to agree with you about Falkirk, it not likely there going to sell it off, also Gala are due the 10 E300 for Route X95 which should release 10 "55" plates to Larbart. Aberdeen Network review also had the same effect with the locals. Old Falkirk network was 10 years out of date...

Livingston still short of buses, and the repainting of Citaros means nothing really there suppose to be 10 at Livingston, 2 are withdrawn of to the scrape year. Out of the rest you might get 3 out in service on a very good day, there never worked. Area also has seen a reduced of tender work and commercial work. In a bid to keep the service going 5 T reg B6 low floors were sent into replace R/S reg Scannys

 

[winston270twm]

I have to agree with you about Falkirk, it not likely there going to sell it off, also Gala are due the 10 E300 for Route X95 which should release 10 "55" plates to Larbart. Aberdeen Network review also had the same effect with the locals. Old Falkirk network was 10 years out of date...

Livingston still short of buses, and the repainting of Citaros means nothing really there suppose to be 10 at Livingston, 2 are withdrawn of to the scrape year. Out of the rest you might get 3 out in service on a very good day, there never worked. Area also has seen a reduced of tender work and commercial work. In a bid to keep the service going 5 T reg B6 low floors were sent into replace R/S reg Scannys

Livingston does sound the more likely possibility from what you've said above then, weren't the two withdrawn & scrapped Citaro's the fire victims?

Are the 5 x T reg B6LE's the ex Glasgow one's?

 

[overthewater]

Livingston does sound the more likely possibility from what you've said above then, weren't the two withdrawn & scrapped Citaro's the fire victims?

Are the 5 x T reg B6LE's the ex Glasgow one's?

Yes those 5 B6LE's were from Glasgow No2. Livingston has lost more of its Double decker Scanias to Muss. Most of its Single decker fleets is Older than VT Reg bar 3 buses which two are "02" and one "04" Still Mini pointer darts running about which are full. More 51 plate deckers running about. Full mini pointer darts with standing load and still there cant found money to get bigger buses? There reduced the PVP 15 and still cant get found spare buses. Citaros sometime never operate some days.. That sounds like a well run depot?

This depot will now only just make a profit because there have shut down linlithgow and move No43 into it.

 

[tbtc]

Gala are due 10? ADL Enviro 300's imminently to match those recently delivered to Dumbarton with the new First interior spec

Dumbarton was one of the garages rumoured for closure/ sale a few months ago - how times change.

 

[winston270twm]

Yes those 5 B6LE's were from Glasgow No2. Livingston has lost more of its Double decker Scanias to Muss. Most of its Single decker fleets is Older than VT Reg bar 3 buses which two are "02" and one "04" Still Mini pointer darts running about which are full. More 51 plate deckers running about. Full mini pointer darts with standing load and still there cant found money to get bigger buses? There reduced the PVP 15 and still cant get found spare buses. Citaros sometime never operate some days.. That sounds like a well run depot?

This depot will now only just make a profit because there have shut down linlithgow and move No43 into it.

Surely if services are that busy, its justifies First sourcing larger single deckers from elsewhere in the group, there are plenty of Dart SLF/Marshall coming out of service in London (some of which have been scrapped and no First subsidiary wants them), eventually passengers are going to get fed up having to stand or being shoehorned in to MPD's and find alternative transport. I agree, sounds like a well managed depot not! then again if it is on the for sale list, First Group may have shrunk all its maintenance budgets, hence the lack of serviceable vehicles.....

Those Citaro's don't sound the most reliable; however, the Mercedes 0405N's that NX West Midlands have been extremely reliable work horses.

What buses did Livi receive with the 43?

 

[overthewater]

Im lead to believe there got 9 "57" plate Gems for the route. expect any old crap on it, from Monday :P