First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

I wish that wasn't true but this would fit in perfectly well here - we have two more examples of this rubbish batch

And both were on my route yesterday :cry:

So there are still 3 x Lances left then? What are the other two?
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The Enviro 300s must be fairly non-standard for First - shame they can't easily be swapped for the Geminis/ B10BLEs that Stagecoach is inheriting in Wigan

I'm surprised First haven't retained the newer B7RLE & Gemini's from Wigan's allocation for upgrading elsewhere in the group.

First Wyvern have the only large batch ever purchased by First, First East Scotland has a few Enviro 300's (approx 4).

The problem now will be that the batch of Enviro's will be split between the purchaser of the Redditch operations, while 20 x (53/54/05 reg) will be retained by First Wyvern at their Worcester garage

 

[Ivo]

So there are still 3 x Lances left then? What are the other two?

ODZ 8916/7. Nasty, horrible things. I had the pleasure of having 67316 twice yesterday - and seeing that 67317 was also running the 15 in Bath! They should have been sent to the scrapyard many moons ago...

 

[tbtc]

I'm surprised First haven't retained the newer B7RLE & Gemini's from Wigan's allocation for upgrading elsewhere in the group.

First Wyvern have the only large batch ever purchased by First, First East Scotland has a few Enviro 300's (approx 4).

The problem now will be that the batch of Enviro's will be split between the purchaser of the Redditch operations, while 20 x (53/54/05 reg) will be retained by First Wyvern at their Worcester garage

I agree - I thought that the sell-off might have allowed First to rationalise its fleet - surely Stagecoach would have preferred all of those E300s instead of inheriting some comparative "oddballs" (I appreciate that they run a handful of Geminis in Lincolnshire - do Stagecoach have any B7RLEs though?)

 

[mbonwick]

Stagecoach West Scotland have a pair of Wright Commuter B7RLEs, Highlands have 5 Eclipse Urbans, East Midlands have 6 and Cambridge have 15 for the busway.

B7/B9TLs are split as follows (various bodies): East Midlands 27, East Scotland 16, Yorkshire 2 (all B7TL), Bluebird 4 (B9TL).

 

[winston270twm]

ODZ 8916/7. Nasty, horrible things. I had the pleasure of having 67316 twice yesterday - and seeing that 67317 was also running the 15 in Bath! They should have been sent to the scrapyard many moons ago...

There are still a few more (approx 4) in active service at Worcester which First look to be retaining....

 

[markie73]

That that whats making me wonder how on earth these depots can be sold. If Northampton can't get a buyer, with is all low floor fleet etc and it does not go head to head with anyone else, what chance does Redditch has? with step entry buses and Rota chopping away at it aswell.... To fair there actually more chance of Redditch getting closed down than Northampton...

I would love to know what is going on with First Northampton, it seems that First have managed to sell off other depots apart from this one it appears to me that nobody looks interested in the Northampton side of things.

Out of curiosity how many depots remain to be sold off on First Groups hit list?

 

[mbonwick]

It seems to me that people keep missing the point here.

Wigan was sold with step entrance vehicles, so I'm quite sure other operations can.

Northampton will NOT be sold as a going concern; the routes will be deregistered and the fleet transferred out. Several factours which have already been discussed make it an unattractive sale, so First will get the best price by just giving up.

 

[markie73]

Northampton will NOT be sold as a going concern; the routes will be deregistered and the fleet transferred out. Several factours which have already been discussed make it an unattractive sale, so First will get the best price by just giving up.

Do we know as and when the routes will be deregistered and the fleet transferred out?, I suppose once this happens it will be rich pickings for Stagecoach with anything left going to the smaller companies.

So we can forget about the recent rumor claiming that the Northampton operation has been sold to Centrebus then?

It's sad given the history of Northampton Transport will eventually vanish.

 

[mbonwick]

I can't debunk the Centrebus rumour for certain, but the fact there has not been a regulatory announcement means that any deal is much further away than the deal suggested.

I've no idea on a timescale for deregistering of routes - I would imagine First are working with other local companies (Stagecoach and Uno at least) in order to ensure that replacement services are available.

 

[markie73]

I can't debunk the Centrebus rumour for certain, but the fact there has not been a regulatory announcement means that any deal is much further away than the deal suggested.

I've no idea on a timescale for deregistering of routes - I would imagine First are working with other local companies (Stagecoach and Uno at least) in order to ensure that replacement services are available.

Could Stagecoach be the winner in this (taking the prime First routes) with everything else going to Uno bus etc?, will be interesting to see what actually happens if/when all of this is sorted.

 

[tbtc]

Stagecoach West Scotland have a pair of Wright Commuter B7RLEs, Highlands have 5 Eclipse Urbans, East Midlands have 6 and Cambridge have 15 for the busway.

B7/B9TLs are split as follows (various bodies): East Midlands 27, East Scotland 16, Yorkshire 2 (all B7TL), Bluebird 4 (B9TL).

Thanks for the information

 

[winston270twm]

It seems to me that people keep missing the point here.

Wigan was sold with step entrance vehicles, so I'm quite sure other operations can.

Northampton will NOT be sold as a going concern; the routes will be deregistered and the fleet transferred out. Several factours which have already been discussed make it an unattractive sale, so First will get the best price by just giving up.

The age/type of vehicles being purchased with any operation being sold off will be reflected in the purchase price, step entrance vehicles can easily be replaced, there are numerous midlife vehicles on the second hand market or if purchased by a large group more modern vehicles can be transferred in from other areas.

It is still not more cost effective for First Group to sell the business as a going concern for say £750k & take a hit on internal value of the business/write off the original purchase price. Rather than pay the costs of closing the business down i.e. making all the staff redundant & having to pay redundancy etc

 

[markie73]

The age/type of vehicles being purchased with any operation being sold off will be reflected in the purchase price, step entrance vehicles can easily be replaced, there are numerous midlife vehicles on the second hand market or if purchased by a large group more modern vehicles can be transferred in from other areas.

Until not to long ago First Northampton had a large fleet 02/05 plate Eclipses which have been transfered to the Eastern counties in return for Floliners which have seen better days, have First made a mistake transfering in old vehicles to a depot which they are trying to sell?,hence the problems they could be having finding a buyer.

 

[winston270twm]

Until not to long ago First Northampton had a large fleet 02/05 plate Eclipses which have been transfered to the Eastern counties in return for Floliners which have seen better days, have First made a mistake transfering in old vehicles to a depot which they are trying to sell?,hence the problems they could be having finding a buyer.

I noticed from Photo's on the web, that the majority of the Scania's have plates holding the front bumpers on

http://wmbusphotos.com/FirstNorthampton/65556.html
http://wmbusphotos.com/FirstNorthampton/65564.html

Replacing the fleet isn't an issue, even for someone like Centrebus, it's just a trip to Ensign, there are plenty of midlife vehicles on the secondhand market. If Northampton had a more modern fleet any purchase price demanded would be much higher....

 

[markie73]

I noticed from Photo's on the web, that the majority of the Scania's have plates holding the front bumpers on

I didn't realise that the condition of some of them was that bad to be honest, mind you there are a few that are in better shape then others in the fleet
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Replacing the fleet isn't an issue, even for someone like Centrebus, it's just a trip to Ensign, there are plenty of midlife vehicles on the secondhand market. If Northampton had a more modern fleet any purchase price demanded would be much higher....

Could be a Ideal acquisition for a company such as Centrebus then if the price is right?.

 

[overthewater]

I know some of the Scanias elsewhere have plates holding the Back fame over the wheel arch together and there like moving around..

 

[winston270twm]

I didn't realise that the condition of some of them was that bad to be honest, mind you there are a few that are in better shape then others in the fleet
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Could be a Ideal acquisition for a company such as Centrebus then if the price is right?.

To be fair, with a bit of TLC & a repaint those Scania's aren't actually bad buses, at least they are heavy weight single deckers (with a few more years left in them) rather than similar age early Dart SLFs. If you compare the presentation of the 02 reg Eclipse that Northampton swapped with Norwich, you can see who got the worst end of the deal / who's standard of vehicle presentation leaves a lot to be desired........

 

[overthewater]

To be fair, with a bit of TLC & a repaint those Scania's aren't actually bad buses, at least they are heavy weight single deckers (with a few more years left in them) rather than similar age early Dart SLFs. If you compare the presentation of the 02 reg Eclipse that Northampton swapped with Norwich, you can see who got the worst end of the deal / who's standard of vehicle presentation leaves a lot to be desired........

I agree with you, the engine etc are alright on them. But the frame on are Crap and there going to fall apart.

 

[winston270twm]

I agree with you, the engine etc are alright on them. But the frame on are Crap and there going to fall apart.

Are the saying the Scania chassis is crap or the Wright bodywork?

 

[overthewater]

I have to say both, The frame is falling to bits..

IN OTHER NEWS

http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2012/11/first-denies-plans-to-sell-off-‘crown-jewels’/

Wigan operation sold due to fleet investment decisions


FirstGroup has countered rumours that it would be prepared to extend its bus disposals programme to some of its more profitable companies.

Speculation has mounted in recent weeks that First may consider listening to offers for core bus businesses, despite the impact that would have on its intention to improve the UK bus division’s profit margin through the disposals programme. Slow progress in disposing of underperforming operations in an attempt to raise £100m has seen the speculation grow, and it was intensified by First’s announcement of the sale of its Wigan operation to Stagecoach last month (PT044).

Speaking to City analysts last week, chief executive Tim O’Toole acknowledged that the sale of the Wigan business with an 11% profit margin, compared to current 6.7% average across the bus division, could appear contrary to the stated aims of selling the worst performing operations. However, he insisted it should not be regarded as an indication of a willingness to sell more profitable companies.

“It is a very fair comment because I’m the one who made a big statement about the fact that as we sell these off, there’ll be a natural snap back to the margin because we’re selling off low margin businesses,” O’Toole said. “Wigan isn’t a particularly low margin business … [but] it is actually not a good read across to the programme generally.

He said the rationale for the Wigan disposal related to the planning of where to place the 1,000 new buses being allocated across the UK division, the inability to justify replacement of Wigan’s ageing fleet in that programme, and the consequent adverse impact that will have on Wigan’s financial results.

“Wigan is largely a cash story,” O’Toole said. “Those buses are very, very old. It wasn’t going to stay at that margin for long. It is geographically not connected to our major operations. And, so, we thought it was of more value to Stagecoach and we were avoiding what would otherwise be the need to invest in even more buses.”



Big Question what are the Operating profits of Leicester and York?

 

[Phil6219]

and we were avoiding what would otherwise be the need to invest in even more buses.

Sound's like the First Group company motto

In all seriousness I didn't think Wigan had that bad a fleet, it has the Gemini's used on the 32 & 33 which are very tidy and only a few years old (6 years I think), and them single deck Wright Eclipse's which are still tidy considering they are 10 or so years old. The older buses are the fairly clapped out double deckers (can't think of a name) which have step entrances and a couple of Dart like vehicles.

The thing is when Stagecoach take over and bring in some new vehicles it will really change the public's opinion and make out that First well (see above company motto )

Phil

 

[overthewater]

Sound's like the First Group company motto

In all seriousness I didn't think Wigan had that bad a fleet, it has the Gemini's used on the 32 & 33 which are very tidy and only a few years old (6 years I think), and them single deck Wright Eclipse's which are still tidy considering they are 10 or so years old. The older buses are the fairly clapped out double deckers (can't think of a name) which have step entrances and a couple of Dart like vehicles.

The thing is when Stagecoach take over and bring in some new vehicles it will really change the public's opinion and make out that First well (see above company motto )

Phil

I heard some of the Gems are going to operate one of the route which is getting moved from Wigan to Another first depot, which I think was done to keep the CC/OFT happy

 

[tbtc]

Will this mean Stagecoach running the Leigh guided bus way?

Or will this form part of the corridor of First services between the Wigan operation and the current Stagecoach area (inc the 100 to the Trafford Centre etc)?

 

[winston270twm]

I have to say both, The frame is falling to bits..

IN OTHER NEWS

http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2012/11/first-denies-plans-to-sell-off-‘crown-jewels’/

Wigan operation sold due to fleet investment decisions


FirstGroup has countered rumours that it would be prepared to extend its bus disposals programme to some of its more profitable companies.

Speculation has mounted in recent weeks that First may consider listening to offers for core bus businesses, despite the impact that would have on its intention to improve the UK bus division’s profit margin through the disposals programme. Slow progress in disposing of underperforming operations in an attempt to raise £100m has seen the speculation grow, and it was intensified by First’s announcement of the sale of its Wigan operation to Stagecoach last month (PT044).

Speaking to City analysts last week, chief executive Tim O’Toole acknowledged that the sale of the Wigan business with an 11% profit margin, compared to current 6.7% average across the bus division, could appear contrary to the stated aims of selling the worst performing operations. However, he insisted it should not be regarded as an indication of a willingness to sell more profitable companies.

“It is a very fair comment because I’m the one who made a big statement about the fact that as we sell these off, there’ll be a natural snap back to the margin because we’re selling off low margin businesses,” O’Toole said. “Wigan isn’t a particularly low margin business … [but] it is actually not a good read across to the programme generally.

He said the rationale for the Wigan disposal related to the planning of where to place the 1,000 new buses being allocated across the UK division, the inability to justify replacement of Wigan’s ageing fleet in that programme, and the consequent adverse impact that will have on Wigan’s financial results.

“Wigan is largely a cash story,” O’Toole said. “Those buses are very, very old. It wasn’t going to stay at that margin for long. It is geographically not connected to our major operations. And, so, we thought it was of more value to Stagecoach and we were avoiding what would otherwise be the need to invest in even more buses.”



Big Question what are the Operating profits of Leicester and York?

Wrights are one of the higher quality body builders, it you look a similar age Scania/Wrights with Potteries / Scotland East etc they are in far better condition. Part of it is how they've been maintained / patched up over the years......

As well as the operations mentioned for sale, I think First should consider selling off some / all of the other smaller subsidiaries as follows:

Berkshire
Cymru
Devon & Cornwall
Remainder of Potteries
Leicester
Remainder of Wyvern (Worcester & Hereford)
Scotland East
York

The above operations are largely isolated from the main core areas, in the above list there are no doubt areas which underperform in terms of profit margins but if sold as a complete operation combined with the more profitable bits to keep route networks intact, I believe these would raise far more interest / command a much higher selling prices than we have seen to date from just disposing of individual garages. Most of the above fleets still operate large quantities of elderly early low floor vehicles which will require considerable fleet investment in the next few years.

Berkshire, Leicester, Wyvern (HD & WR), Potteries (A & N) & York at least are all around 100-120 vehicle size operations, by selling those smaller scale operations they would achieve / exceed the £100 Million disposal target but it wouldn't have the noticeable impact on UK bus turnover / profits that selling one of the former PTE operations would have
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Sound's like the First Group company motto

In all seriousness I didn't think Wigan had that bad a fleet, it has the Gemini's used on the 32 & 33 which are very tidy and only a few years old (6 years I think), and them single deck Wright Eclipse's which are still tidy considering they are 10 or so years old. The older buses are the fairly clapped out double deckers (can't think of a name) which have step entrances and a couple of Dart like vehicles.

The thing is when Stagecoach take over and bring in some new vehicles it will really change the public's opinion and make out that First well (see above company motto )

Phil

Wigan, has large quantities of R/S reg B10BLE's, P/R reg Optare Excel's, R reg Dart SLF's, R/S reg Dennis Arrow's & Volvo Olympian double deckers N-P reg etc Although it does have a quantity of B7RLE's & Gemini's of late, they are still the minority

 

[Ivo]

I think First should consider selling off ... Berkshire

I have to agree on this. When I travelled on the 190 (Bracknell to Reading) back in September I thought about the viability of Slough and Bracknell being put up for sale. No other major operator has any real presence in the area, so there is at least a little commercial advantage in doing so. The problem they have is that they are somewhat isolated from other operations.

Personally, I think they fit an Arriva mandate better than the others. The London commuter belt should be right up their street. The only problem is, would First be prepared to dump the GreenLine 701 and 702?

 

[robertclark125]

Regards what may go into Wigan, Stagecoach North West have recently put their six ex East Scotland MAN 18.220s into reserve. Mbonwick is probably the expert here, but from what I've read on that thread, those vehicles (including 22274, which was named The Backstreet Boys during its Fife days) aren't the most reliable things around. It does lead to this question; would Stagecoach be willing to risk putting those six vehicles into Wigan, despite their reliability, until something better comes along, knowing that if those vehicles keep failing, they will get a bad press, or do they wait, and thus delay the pace of the swoops being introduced, and delay introducing their standard vehicles?

 

[Phil6219]

I heard some of the Gems are going to operate one of the route which is getting moved from Wigan to Another first depot

Well the 32 will use vehicles from Bolton Depot apparently so that would be the likely candidate to send some if not all of the Gems to. I think the only other route from Wigan I have seen some on (aside from the 33) is the 600 to Leigh.

Wigan, has large quantities of R/S reg B10BLE's, P/R reg Optare Excel's, R reg Dart SLF's, R/S reg Dennis Arrow's & Volvo Olympian double deckers N-P reg etc Although it does have a quantity of B7RLE's & Gemini's of late, they are still the minority

I didn't realise they still had so many of the older types, the Volvo Olympian was the older double deck vehicle I was thinking of earlier.

Will this mean Stagecoach running the Leigh guided bus way?

I can't see it given that the Leigh MisGuided Busway will be for services running from Leigh to Manchester, Salford and supposedly South Manchester. If I am wrong an Stagecoach do run services along it that will be excellent competition on the Leigh-Manchester corridor which has been a first monopoly since I can remember (although Timeline may have ran some services before they were bought by the big F).

Phil

 

[winston270twm]

I didn't realise they still had so many of the older types, the Volvo Olympian was the older double deck vehicle I was thinking of earlier.

Phil

First Manchester fleetlist if you're interested showing Wigan's final First allocation

http://www.freewebs.com/nwbus/fleetlists.htm

 

[tbtc]

I can't see it given that the Leigh MisGuided Busway will be for services running from Leigh to Manchester, Salford and supposedly South Manchester. If I am wrong an Stagecoach do run services along it that will be excellent competition on the Leigh-Manchester corridor which has been a first monopoly since I can remember (although Timeline may have ran some services before they were bought by the big F).

Phil

The reason I was asking is that I don't know the First Manchester garages, so don't know which depot runs the services through Salford/ Eccles etc (the 67, 100, that kind of thing)

 

[Phil6219]

First Manchester fleetlist if you're interested showing Wigan's final First allocation

Cheers, that's quite interesting.

The reason I was asking is that I don't know the First Manchester garages, so don't know which depot runs the services through Salford/ Eccles etc (the 67, 100, that kind of thing)

No worries, I don't know how accurate this info is as it is Wikipedia but I find it handy as a general guide.

Wikipedia page

It seems that the main routes heading through Salford/Eccles are Manchester based vehicles while the other side of Salford through Swinton with their 8,36 & 37s are all Bolton based for obvious reasons.

The problem with the busway is that if all or the majority of Leigh services are routed through it then a lot of areas are missing out (while I live 3 minutes walk from the old railway and 5 minutes from a bus stop on the top and bottom roads someone with reduced mobility who would be able to walk 10 minutes to the main road may not be able to walk a further 10 minutes to get to the busway). Other services would be able to join it from Moorside and use it as a quicker path into Manchester so would benefit other services but again at a cost of local stops.

Phil