First Group: General Discussion

[MK Tom]

The talk is starting to get stronger over the following:

* Northampton Is expected a press release next week:

* First Scotland East, Go Ahead is looking at buy the rest of the operations.

Recently had multiple reliable sources saying Uno to take over Northampton's route 4/4A at next week's announcement. I am just relaying what I've been told though and that should not be taken as fact.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Arriva are absolutely useless in Wigan apart from the Bolton Corridor routes. the 362 is plagued by delays in the Standish area. the 352/320/395 by a **** poor badly run depot that think a timetable is a urban myth (Bring Back Arriva Skelmersdale!!!) and the 375/385 by delays on Ormskirk road and breakdowns due to the Volvos not being used to the route and the Pulsars used every now and again are to small and are often complained about (Check forums and the complain about your bus routes site about the 385 having pulsars instead of volvos)

The notion that they are a competitor in Wigan is a Joke. Wigan bus company and SLT/Strawberry are of far more use.

Im quite happy Stagecoach have the depot although id imagine the excels darts and B10bles will go straight away and Enviro 200/300 and Deckers Brought in?

Did first retain the 540/32/33/X34 as they are four very profitable routes that should all be decker operated? I'd like to see the 600 entirely Decker operated to as it surely could be if the 125 is by Chorley depot?

As a guide ill note what Stagecoach should use on Each route.
32/33/X34 Low Floor Deckers 113 Solos 540 Deckers and Eclipses. 593 Mid Size Saloons 600 Deckers and Occasional Eclipse 610 Mid Size Saloon 621/8 Medium Size Saloons with frequency changed 625/6 Solos 631/2 Mid Size Saloons 658 Full Size Saloons and occasional peak deckers

Dont think i missed anything Nightbuses would be Eclipses or SD Enviro's if Purchased and Deckers at Crimbo/New Year Although a Nightbus towards Bolton need to be provided ala 540 as far as Westhoughton would be a good idea? as it appears less people are using evenng journeys because theres no night-time way home

 

[Ivo]

Arriva are absolutely useless in Wigan apart from the Bolton Corridor routes ... the 375/385 by delays on Ormskirk road and breakdowns due to the Volvos not being used to the route and the Pulsars used every now and again are to small and are often complained about (Check forums and the complain about your bus routes site about the 385 having pulsars instead of volvos)

I had a Pulsar on the 385 (to my surprise) on Monday and it coped perfectly well. OK, so I had been expecting an ALX400 decker, but the Pulsar suffered no difficulty of any kind and kept to the timetable well; in fact, it arrived into Ormskirk (where gnolife and I boarded it, bound for Southport) four minutes early! Still, I would agree that in the longer run they are probably not ideal, but this is Arriva and should be expected.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

They need some Coach Seated Deckers for the 375/385 route (Think Coach Seated equivalent to Stagecoach Spec Scania Enviro 400's and you are on my train of thought here.)that are geared better for the job in hand as much as love the ALX400's if a Pulsar turns up i ring Skem Taxis

Whereas on the 352 (my former local daytime route) i now only use the route in the evenings/sundays when the Kirkby-Wigan line doesnt run as the fares are poor value for money and the standard of bus is poor plus its plagued by bad timekeeping during daytimes thanks to interworking with the 395.

 

[northwichcat]

Arriva are absolutely useless in Wigan apart from the Bolton Corridor routes. the 362 is plagued by delays in the Standish area. the 352/320/395 by a **** poor badly run depot that think a timetable is a urban myth (Bring Back Arriva Skelmersdale!!!)

You mean the depot that had old Leyland Nationals that a number were grounded for being unroadworthy?

Arriva had an overall old fleet from the start by the time they had the old North Western buses, the old Stevensons buses, the old Nova Scotia buses etc. The former Star Line Travel routes had modern buses at the time of takeover by North Western and some of these were branded as 'North Western Premier' after the takeover.

The 288 Knutsford-Wilmslow-Altrincham route got fairly new buses under Starline Travel (L and M reg) and it was pretty much run by L and M reg buses until 2009 when Arriva stopped running the route.

 

[Pyromaniac]

They need some Coach Seated Deckers for the 375/385 route (Think Coach Seated equivalent to Stagecoach Spec Scania Enviro 400's and you are on my train of thought here.)that are geared better for the job in hand as much as love the ALX400's if a Pulsar turns up i ring Skem Taxis

I think we share the same view that anything Scania engined is much better for long runs. Dennis/ADL engines I find are suited to town work perfectly and newer Volvo engines to me feel a little "relaxed" is the only way I can describe it. To my untrained ear Scania engines always seem to have so much power in them and always rev quite high (which I like) .

 

[mbonwick]

To my untrained ear Scania engines always seem to have so much power in them and always rev quite high (which I like) .

Really? Come up here where the gearboxes are set up properly and you'll soon change your mind on the revving!

 

[overthewater]

Update: Linlithgow depot is closing down in two weeks, with most work getting transferred.

Talk is mussleburgh depot will also be getting shut down, just after the new year. With East nothin buses and maybe someone local taking over.

Galashields depot keeps getting highlighted, the depot is due 10 brand new E300 shortly and is also getting swapping 10 53plate single deckers for double deckers.

Money is still on livingston .......

 

[A0]

The problem with First just pulling the plug and Stagecoach registering replacement services, is the risk of Stagecoach not managing to purchase the depot, which they need for them to no longer keep buses in Greyfriars overnight, something that could have to be increased if they just registered replacement services without securing a depot.

I don't think First actually own Northampton depot, have feeling they only lease it so it may not be an option for Stagecoach even if they want it, which I suspect they don't.

They could probably secure a far better site nearer their current Rothersthorpe Ave site.

 

[winston270twm]

Update: Linlithgow depot is closing down in two weeks, with most work getting transferred.

Talk is mussleburgh depot will also be getting shut down, just after the new year. With East nothin buses and maybe someone local taking over.

Galashields depot keeps getting highlighted, the depot is due 10 brand new E300 shortly and is also getting swapping 10 53plate single deckers for double deckers.

Money is still on livingston .......

There are suggestions on the Scotland Bus yahoo group that NX are interested in Livingston & possibly Larbert. They are not a million miles for existing businesses in Dundee. But NX normally go for urban/high frequency operations, so whether there's any truth in it...... Out of interest does anyone know how many buses both garages operate?

Another one to throw in to the mix is Leicester, which is yet to repaint any of its fleet in to the new livery......

 

[overthewater]

The side to that has been go-ahead, which I believe more likely.

But knows..............

 

[robertclark125]

A name not mentioned yet is Transdev Blazefield. Could they be a contender for any operations?

 

[mbonwick]

Unlikely. Veolia are looking to sell their share in Veolia-Transdev and wind the operations down...

 

[robertclark125]

Unlikely. Veolia are looking to sell their share in Veolia-Transdev and wind the operations down...

That wouldn't surprise me, after they disposed of their operations in central england, and south wales, the latter of which, in new ownership, has ceased trading.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

What's happened to it

 

[317 forever]

There are suggestions on the Scotland Bus yahoo group that NX are interested in Livingston & possibly Larbert. They are not a million miles for existing businesses in Dundee. But NX normally go for urban/high frequency operations, so whether there's any truth in it...... Out of interest does anyone know how many buses both garages operate?

Another one to throw in to the mix is Leicester, which is yet to repaint any of its fleet in to the new livery......

Leicester could join Wellglade, as they own Trent Barton and Kinchbus in the east Midlands (and TM Travel a bit further north).

I was in Fareham on Thursday and, apart from 12-reg Eclipses on Eclipse on routes E1/E2 and Scania Omnicities on route 1a to Southsea, most buses were M-S reg single-deckers including non-SLF Pointers. I wonder whether Fareham ex-Provincial could be sold next year?

 

[BuhSnarf]

I don't think Wellglade would take on something the size of First Leicester.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[winston270twm]

I don't think Wellglade would take on something the size of First Leicester.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Leicester only operates approx 100 vehicles, the majority of which are W reg, 51 reg or 02 reg. Wasn't TM Travel a similar size when Wellglade acquired that?

37146 is the newest bus in the fleet being six years old

At some point, I reckon Wellglade may well sell out to one of the big groups in the future.... someone like Go-Ahead

 

[overthewater]

I also believe go ahead may buy the remains transdev companies in the north.

That could make the a big four

 

[Pyromaniac]

I was in Fareham on Thursday and, apart from 12-reg Eclipses on Eclipse on routes E1/E2 and Scania Omnicities on route 1a to Southsea, most buses were M-S reg single-deckers including non-SLF Pointers. I wonder whether Fareham ex-Provincial could be sold next year?

Looking wider angle at Southampton and Hilsea depots which are part of First Hamoshire too, Hilsea has 09 plated Eclipses for the 40/41 services in Portsmouth and Southampton has a few not so old Eclipses plus cascaded ex-London stock and Enviro 200's. All irrelevant as 10 new vehicles are on order for First Hampshire anyway.

Hampshire is not up to sale, it seems to be the most innovative First division at the moment!

 

[fgwrich]

Looking wider angle at Southampton and Hilsea depots which are part of First Hamoshire too, Hilsea has 09 plated Eclipses for the 40/41 services in Portsmouth and Southampton has a few not so old Eclipses plus cascaded ex-London stock and Enviro 200's. All irrelevant as 10 new vehicles are on order for First Hampshire anyway.

Hampshire is not up to sale, it seems to be the most innovative First division at the moment!

Certainly does, Even Southamptons Dart SFLs have gone purple! (as in the bizare new livery).

 

[cainebj]

I don't think First actually own Northampton depot, have feeling they only lease it so it may not be an option for Stagecoach even if they want it, which I suspect they don't.

They could probably secure a far better site nearer their current Rothersthorpe Ave site.

Since making my post about the depot, I've found out Stagecoach have secured a site and it should be open in the new year.
It is currently rumoured that Stagecoach are going to be taking over most of the First services from the new site, with the rest going to Uno and possibly some other local small operators, but nothing has been confirmed yet.

 

[overthewater]

A while back I come up with a list of place which could I believed could be sold off to raise the money. I have updated the list again to better reflect newer details:

* First in Northampton: Evans
Odds on front runners is Northampton. Its failed to make a profit and has seen most of its newest buses moved on only to be replaced with much order stock . With stagecoach in town and having such a strong overhang across the town it might make it harder for any proper sell:
Uno to get everything: 5/1
Stagecoach to get everything 18/1
Both to go something 4/6

* First Edinburgh: 11/8
It was believe first would try and save most of the depots but with Linlithgow now going and Musselburgh believing to be getting closed down aswell from the new year, the company is getting smaller. Falkirk is the only place to see a proper route overhaul but very little in new livery. But the fleet overall has been improved with most of the: P, R, S, reg fleet hiding for the Bin. BUT it’s still has problems with the rest of the fleet, its awful fares which are still controlled by the OFT and its links with Scotrail, make it far harder for first to overhaul the company. Money is still on Livingston

* First Chester & the Wirral, 5/2
126 buses: and NO PROFIT. It’s not been easy ride since the operations were brought over from the council. Arriva it’s a NO, but Rotala Group might be interest as it’s in the same area as it other bus companies
Operations being spilt in two: 9/4

* Lea Interchange: 3/1
It’s gone very quiet on the London depots who would want to buy this? First would still hold 5 depots in London if this and Dagenham were sold, would there still be able to operate a good share holding?

* First York: 40/1
It’s an area which is a bit out of the way and could just be sold off and would not affect first much ways afterwards, should also not have much trouble with the OFT/CC. But of course first has tried many new ideas in the city but it seems to have falling out with the council. Could this be the time for it move on?

* Redditch and Kidderminster 42/1
Strange this is rather lower down the list? Well the biggest problem is who going to buy the operations & Depot? And not get into trouble with the OFT/CC? Both NatEx and Rotala Group would have issues. Also it leaves the rest of the First operations sticking out like a sore thumb. The chances are there could try and fight.

First Cornwall 45/1
This operations, is a bit of a mix bag, the real problem is who could buy the operations? Smart money would be on another round of cut backs and having a more core high profit making depot.

* First Leicester 50/1
Nothing has happened in the City, no overhaul, nothing in the new livery, and this is leading to some speculations. Of course it could just be first are trying to sort out Northampton to get the books sorted before getting to work in Leicester. It’s not like anything major is required straight away. Its first area, High pop: Urban area and it’s in profit…………….

Aberdeen 100/1
And for Fun, Aberdeen continues to have unhappy relationship with First.

 

[winston270twm]

I also believe go ahead may buy the remains transdev companies in the north.

That could make the a big four

At last count, I believe Caisse des Dépôts owner of Transdev (half shareholder in Veolia Transdev) was potentially in the frame to buyout Veolia if it put its share of the joint business up for sale
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A while back I come up with a list of place which could I believed could be sold off to raise the money. I have updated the list again to better reflect newer details:

* First Chester & the Wirral, 5/2
126 buses: and NO PROFIT. It’s not been easy ride since the operations were brought over from the council. Arriva it’s a NO, but Rotala Group might be interest as it’s in the same area as it other bus companies
Operations being spilt in two: 9/4

* Redditch and Kidderminster 42/1
Strange this is rather lower down the list? Well the biggest problem is who going to buy the operations & Depot? And not get into trouble with the OFT/CC? Both NatEx and Rotala Group would have issues. Also it leaves the rest of the First operations sticking out like a sore thumb. The chances are there could try and fight.

Re - First Chester & the Wirral - I doubt Rotala Group could raise the capital to either one or both of those operations. I believe the group is now carrying quite high levels of debt since acquiring Preston Bus. But the Preston Bus hasn't really made any significant difference to Rotala Groups profits. In the past Rotala have always had to raise funds for acquisitions through share placements which dilute existing shareholdings

Re - Redditch and Kidderminster - Rotala Group would have a problem with OFT/CC as they are Firsts main competition in Redditch & would end up with a monopoly. I doubt NX would raise any concerns if it bought both operations, as NXWM/First only cross paths on the 146 B'ham - Redditch route & don't compete. Personally I think First should sell Wvyern as a job lot, as a number of each garages routes overlap to provide a network, by selling just certain garages this will be broken. Also First will achieve a much higher sale price/closer to raising the £100million of UK bus disposals if they through in Worcester & Hereford, Worcester I'm assuming must be quite profitable......

 

[Ivo]

I like the looks of the 40-1 on York and the 42-1 (what sort of value is that?) on the Wyvern pair

 

[overthewater]

I like the looks of the 40-1 on York and the 42-1 (what sort of value is that?) on the Wyvern pair

Just worse odds. If anything the only company I could see getting redditch would be stagey. Problem with Nat express is it would make it even bigger inthe same area.

It just doest seem the easiest area for buyers, bar cornwall which is anyone guess!.

 

[northwichcat]

Re - First Chester & the Wirral - I doubt Rotala Group could raise the capital to either one or both of those operations. I believe the group is now carrying quite high levels of debt since acquiring Preston Bus. But the Preston Bus hasn't really made any significant difference to Rotala Groups profits. In the past Rotala have always had to raise funds for acquisitions through share placements which dilute existing shareholdings

Maybe a joint venture could be on the cards. Centrebus have done these in the past with the Huddersfield Bus Company and High Peak.

 

[tbtc]

I like the looks of the 40-1 on York

So do I. York would be perfect Stagecoach territory, looking at how well they have run the similar markets of Cambridge and Oxford (where the Park And Ride operations and restricted car travel in the centre have enhanced the network).

Plus York would be far enough away from Hull, Doncaster, Teesside to avoid any competition issues.

 

[markie73]

* First in Northampton: Evans
Odds on front runners is Northampton. Its failed to make a profit and has seen most of its newest buses moved on only to be replaced with much order stock . With stagecoach in town and having such a strong overhang across the town it might make it harder for any proper sell:
Uno to get everything: 5/1
Stagecoach to get everything 18/1
Both to go something 4/6


Rumor has it that Uno bus is supposed to be taking over First Northampton routes 4 and 4A very soon and according to several contacts there will be an announcement at some point this week.

If the rumors are true then it would make sense for Uno Bus to take over these routes as no other operator other then First presently operates them and also the University of Northampton is almost on the existing route 4 network so expanding onto the service 4 could ease the congestion on the Uno service 19.

Lets see if we hear anything this week!

 

[radamfi]

Perhaps First may actually sell a very profitable part of the business, one that they would really like to keep under different circumstances?