First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

IF stagecoach gets it hand on the city it could introduce CITI Network :P

 

[A0]

Hmm I stand by my quote but I don't oppose demolition either. I think having adequate transport infrastructure for a city of 210,000 is more important than having an attractive building so I oppose a scheme to replace Greyfriars with a facility providing far fewer bus bays and a far smaller waiting area with worse pedestrian connections. I would support a scheme that replaced it with a facility offering the same or better provision for bus services. I don't think Northampton's centre would benefit from more bus services being forced onto the Drapery stops and other on-street areas. Whilst it's good to have those stops for local services to give people closer links to the specific area of the centre they want, they aren't suitable for terminating a large volume of services. It'd murder a street that's already a bit of a mess in terms of pedestrian and vehicle movement.

BTW yes I did just call Northampton a city. Whatever the Queen thinks, calling such a huge place a town is just a joke. But we digress from the thread topic!

And as I pointed out to you the current one is far too big for the following reasons:

- it's partly used as a depot by Stagecoach who will relocate elsewhere to somewhere more suitable
- the 'express' bays are unused for most of the day - in fact there are bays which are completely unused

Your comment about 'worse pedestrian access' is laughable - have you ever walked from the railway station to Greyfriars? It's an absolute frigging nightmare. Even better, try picking somebody up who's arrived on a late Nat Exp coach which has dropped off at 1 in the morning - there's nowhere to park, everything is locked up and you end up having to walk across the bus station ignoring the 'no pedestrian' signs.

The replacement will be at the top of Drapery - much easier pedestrian access to Drapery / Market Square - don't forget demolition means that the Grosvenor Centre will be extended - so it'll have good connections there.

By your logic Luton should also be a city (popn >200,000) as should Slough and Swindon. The traditional definition of a city is that it has a Cathedral or Abbey. Northampton, unfortunately due to a quirk of history doesn't.

 

[MK Tom]

And as I pointed out to you the current one is far too big for the following reasons:

- it's partly used as a depot by Stagecoach who will relocate elsewhere to somewhere more suitable
- the 'express' bays are unused for most of the day - in fact there are bays which are completely unused

Your comment about 'worse pedestrian access' is laughable - have you ever walked from the railway station to Greyfriars? It's an absolute frigging nightmare. Even better, try picking somebody up who's arrived on a late Nat Exp coach which has dropped off at 1 in the morning - there's nowhere to park, everything is locked up and you end up having to walk across the bus station ignoring the 'no pedestrian' signs.

The replacement will be at the top of Drapery - much easier pedestrian access to Drapery / Market Square - don't forget demolition means that the Grosvenor Centre will be extended - so it'll have good connections there.

By your logic Luton should also be a city (popn >200,000) as should Slough and Swindon. The traditional definition of a city is that it has a Cathedral or Abbey. Northampton, unfortunately due to a quirk of history doesn't.

Yeah I've done that walk a hundred times. I went to uni in Northampton and commuted in by rail and bus. It is difficult and the new site would do little to change that whilst adding extra road crossings.

Luton should be a city. Northampton does have a cathedral. The traditional 'university and cathedral' definition of a city hasn't applied since the 1890s. There are cities in the UK without cathedrals and towns with them. The system is a mess and it should really be decided in terms of regional significance and influence like it is in most countries.
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IF stagecoach gets it hand on the city it could introduce CITI Network :P

That would be rather cool

 

[tbtc]

Luton should be a city. Northampton does have a cathedral. The traditional 'university and cathedral' definition of a city hasn't applied since the 1890s. There are cities in the UK without cathedrals and towns with them. The system is a mess and it should really be decided in terms of regional significance and influence like it is in most countries

In which case Northampton is in MK's shadow?

Anyhow, can we get back to discussing buses? There have been many rumours about First and sell-offs, yet we seem to know as little today as we did a couple of months ago - seems like a load of froth and little else

 

[A0]

Yeah I've done that walk a hundred times. I went to uni in Northampton and commuted in by rail and bus. It is difficult and the new site would do little to change that whilst adding extra road crossings.

Luton should be a city. Northampton does have a cathedral. The traditional 'university and cathedral' definition of a city hasn't applied since the 1890s. There are cities in the UK without cathedrals and towns with them. The system is a mess and it should really be decided in terms of regional significance and influence like it is in most countries.
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That would be rather cool

Sorry - beg to differ about the route to the station, it will be really easy, down the Drapery, left onto Gold Street and straight down. Miles better than the current rabbit warren of subways that you currently have to negotiate.

And I can only think of 1 extra road crossing against the current route - across from the Fishmarket to Drapery. The rest of it would be on pavement - and the crossing opposite Sol Central would be using an established pedestrian crossing.

 

[MK Tom]

In which case Northampton is in MK's shadow?

Anyhow, can we get back to discussing buses? There have been many rumours about First and sell-offs, yet we seem to know as little today as we did a couple of months ago - seems like a load of froth and little else

Yeah sorry, if A0wen's happy with it I don't mind continuing any debates via personal messages.

I will just say I consider MK and Northampton pretty much equals - MK is larger, safer and more economically powerful whilst Northampton has a long and distinguished history and a strong sense of identity.

I have spoken to First and the best I've got out of them is 'a few months we'll make an announcement.' I think all bets are off now as losing the WCML bid they had won has thrown all their financial predictions out of the window. We can only really wait for official word or somebody on the inside to leak something.

 

[Polarbear]

[QUOTE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbear
Both Rock Ferry & Chester definitely fall into this category. Many "R" registered Scania's which date back to 1996 & certainly no new paintwork to be seen anywhere.

Still No news about those depots?][/QUOTE]

Nope - it's all gone very quiet around here. I would still expect Stagecoach to take over Rock Ferry in the longer term & that may allow Arriva to take on Chester?

If Chester were to be offered to anyone else, I'd expect Arriva to register competing routes over all of the present network to deter any other operator from taking over (this happened when Chester City Transport was originally put up for sale).

 

[overthewater]

In which case Northampton is in MK's shadow?

Anyhow, can we get back to discussing buses? There have been many rumours about First and sell-offs, yet we seem to know as little today as we did a couple of months ago - seems like a load of froth and little else

And were back to Square one. Its half way though the financial year and nothing has moved, £80million is still waiting to be found to pay off its high debts. A number of depots are still making no money, thus the areas which need to be sold have to be off the book within 6 months. to help cut the losses and debts. If not, well what First has said, has been alot of crap and its own fault for the problems rolling back at its door.

West Coast line, and the share price has also causing problems aswell.

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazi...376&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

FirstGroup is likely to make an announcement next month on the bus subsidiaries it is to sell to raise cash. FirstGroup’s attempt to sell its North Devon operations to rival Stagecoach was thwarted this summer after the Office of Fair Trading announced it was referring the sale to the Competition Commission because of concerns the sale would reduce competition. But Giles Fearnley, FirstGroup’s managing director of UK?Bus, told LTT he didn’t anticipate the next sales attracting Competition Commission referrals because the purchasers would not create the same monopolistic situation....

 

[Scania3379man]

And Any news about wigan again if u guys don't mind?

I somewhat been told that rotala might buy chester and Rock ferry and someone told me Go ahead might buy wigan tho or maybe Stagecoach(im not sure)? so wigan depot has been sold last week i think...so there is 2 company of operator might to buy off at wigan. if anyone pls send me my information is wrong or right, pls let me know...thank you.

Martyn

 

[robertclark125]

And Any news about wigan again if u guys don't mind?

I somewhat been told that rotala might buy chester and Rock ferry and someone told me Go ahead might buy wigan tho or maybe Stagecoach(im not sure)? so wigan depot has been sold last week i think...so there is 2 company of operator might to buy off at wigan. if anyone pls send me my information is wrong or right, pls let me know...thank you.

Martyn

As Mbonwick has already stated, Rotala may have expanded by buying Preston Bus from Stagecoach, and they may be making a profit, but due to the way they funded the purchase of Preston bus, they don't exactly have the cash to splash. They may buy one operation, but not both. As Mbonwick also stated, Stagecoach are seemingly the favourites to buy Rock ferry. It would be a good fit with their Gilmoss operations across the Mersey, and with Arriva, ACE travel, and a fair few other firms operating there, the OFT and competition commission would have no reason to investigate.

To also cloud your point mr scania, some people have suggested that Arriva or Go Ahead might buy Rotala. Which leads back to a point I raised earlier; it's ok First talking to firms about buying depots or whole firms. But, if these firms are buying operations that already compete with the existing operations of another big group, what's stopping said big group trying to buy prospective bidder(s), to prevent them facing new competition? A spanner in the works

If we take Northampton or Chester as examples, and use Transdev Blazefield as a possible purchaser, TB might make an offer or be rumoured to make an offer to buy Northampton from first. Stagecoach gets wind, and then makes an offer to buy transdev Blazefield, which is accepted before the talks with first are completed, and thus pulls the plug on the sale. End result, First either does a North devon, and announces a closure of the operation, with Stagecoach announcing replacement services a few days later, or First is forced to sell to a smaller firm, which stagecoach has a better chance of forcing off the road through competition.

Lastly, with the situation in North devon, there is one advantage for Stagecoach; they can provide the new services using their standard types of buses. Had they bought the First operations, several non standard types (to Stagecoach anyway) would've came into the group.

 

[tbtc]

Stagecoach gets wind, and then makes an offer to buy transdev Blazefield

An interesting idea. There's not much overlap, apart from the reuniting of parts of the old Ribble area (Transdev Blazefield's Blackburn/ Burnley with Stagecoach's operations around Preston).

(I know you are being hypothetical here, but it just occurred to me that two of the larger bus groups in the UK have very little overlap)

 

[Scania3379man]

As Mbonwick has already stated, Rotala may have expanded by buying Preston Bus from Stagecoach, and they may be making a profit, but due to the way they funded the purchase of Preston bus, they don't exactly have the cash to splash. They may buy one operation, but not both. As Mbonwick also stated, Stagecoach are seemingly the favourites to buy Rock ferry. It would be a good fit with their Gilmoss operations across the Mersey, and with Arriva, ACE travel, and a fair few other firms operating there, the OFT and competition commission would have no reason to investigate.

To also cloud your point mr scania, some people have suggested that Arriva or Go Ahead might buy Rotala. Which leads back to a point I raised earlier; it's ok First talking to firms about buying depots or whole firms. But, if these firms are buying operations that already compete with the existing operations of another big group, what's stopping said big group trying to buy prospective bidder(s), to prevent them facing new competition? A spanner in the works

If we take Northampton or Chester as examples, and use Transdev Blazefield as a possible purchaser, TB might make an offer or be rumoured to make an offer to buy Northampton from first. Stagecoach gets wind, and then makes an offer to buy transdev Blazefield, which is accepted before the talks with first are completed, and thus pulls the plug on the sale. End result, First either does a North devon, and announces a closure of the operation, with Stagecoach announcing replacement services a few days later, or First is forced to sell to a smaller firm, which stagecoach has a better chance of forcing off the road through competition.

Lastly, with the situation in North devon, there is one advantage for Stagecoach; they can provide the new services using their standard types of buses. Had they bought the First operations, several non standard types (to Stagecoach anyway) would've came into the group.

So why first not selling off at Wigan at rumour? I can't understand the wigan, northampton, redditch and kidderminster and somerset(taunton) not selling or drop? what going on? Has First messing about or confused? Are they still selling 6 town on UK First Bus? are they confirmed?

Thank you,
Martyn

 

[overthewater]

Even since oft come along t seems to have put a spanner in the works.
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Forgot to ask, Will the announcement co-side with the Half year results? Of will it happen JUST before it to give the illusion its getting better?
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Stirke action in Devon and Cornwall:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19967369
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First has admint that the time scale has been throw out the window and may not be completed until end of 2013/14. First believes it will still raise £100million ( only £84m to go) throw sell offs.

A Number of companies who were interested did not see much asset in the depots up for sale, IE there worthless..... Once again chester, Northampton, Livingston fall in to that group.

 

[Volvodart]

This was the position before they lost the West Coast franchise. Maybe the need for cash has changed this. It has subsequently been reported that there will be sales shortly.

 

[overthewater]

This was the position before they lost the West Coast franchise. Maybe the need for cash has changed this. It has subsequently been reported that there will be sales shortly.

So Both points stands since the sell off will take longer but hopful in November something will happen to move things along.

Interesting Piece in this week Route one:

http://www.route-one.net/issues/458/pubData/source/routone458.pdf

" We are really excited about this. We have Seriously refurbished the fleet and also in increasing frequency"

I have some doubt over that, there many place which have yet to see ANY new buses or refurb. Many place are still have issues over costly fares and disgraceful weekly tickets

 

[MCW]

So Both points stands since the sell off will take longer but hopful in November something will happen to move things along.

Interesting Piece in this week Route one:

http://www.route-one.net/issues/458/pubData/source/routone458.pdf

" We are really excited about this. We have Seriously refurbished the fleet and also in increasing frequency"

I have some doubt over that, there many place which have yet to see ANY new buses or refurb. Many place are still have issues over costly fares and disgraceful weekly tickets

We're STILL waiting for the new Livery in leicester so the bit about refurbishment is a load of tosh....

Also rumour in the grapevine is that two of Leicester's ALX400's will be transferred to Northampton and we will get the remaining two geminis in return, but as I have said, it's a rumour, actions > Words.

 

[IanXC]

Quick update: new livery with “YORK” branding has appeared in the last few days.

 

[MK Tom]

You know, the thing First Northampton is really lacking is more old dilapidated buses.

NOT.

 

[overthewater]

Yorks is at last seeing some action, will it be enough improve growth ?

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/york/travel_news/service_updates/?item=5921&conf=0

 

[BuhSnarf]

We're STILL waiting for the new Livery in leicester so the bit about refurbishment is a load of tosh....

Also rumour in the grapevine is that two of Leicester's ALX400's will be transferred to Northampton and we will get the remaining two geminis in return, but as I have said, it's a rumour, actions > Words.

Slightly OT but I'm sure I've noticed over the past few weeks some either new Geminis to Arriva Leicester, or at least some of the existing ones painted in the inter urban livery. They look very smart.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Qwerty133]

Slightly OT but I'm sure I've noticed over the past few weeks some either new Geminis to Arriva Leicester, or at least some of the existing ones painted in the inter urban livery. They look very smart.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

They are 11 years old and London cast offs. They would be about 20 busses left if the council put a max age of 6 years on busses.

 

[overthewater]

They are 11 years old and London cast offs. They would be about 20 busses left if the council put a max age of 6 years on busses.

what happened to that major invesment and network review Arriva did a few years back?

The one which made first unhappy and also made Stagecoach up its 48 to every 20mins into Leicester (old 156/157)

 

[Qwerty133]

what happened to that major invesment and network review Arriva did a few years back?

The one which made first unhappy and also made Stagecoach up its 48 to every 20mins into Leicester (old 156/157)

I meant 6 years from date of first registration and those busses are 06 and early 56 plates which some of have been transferred away anyway.
The bulk of the decker fleet is now y to 52 plate east lancs lowlanders and s/t plate daf Alx 400s have recently been transferred from london to replace the last of the Olympians.
The only newer busses I can think of is
Stagecoach route 48
All of the park and rides (3)
A few solos operated by arriva
3 deckers operated by Centrebus
The hospital hopper also operated by Centrebus
Centrebus also have a few 07 plates which are mainly used on the circle line which does not go into Leicester itself.

 

[BuhSnarf]

We also have some brand new optates that operate the 58 route. Versas I think.

But yeh, we need some new stuff!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MK Tom]

Centrebus also have a few 07 plates which are mainly used on the circle line which does not go into Leicester itself.

OT I know but just a clarification - pretty much the entire circle line is within Leicester. It just doesn't go into the city centre.

 

[Scania3379man]

According to a recent post to the First-Group-Fans Yahoo! Group, the sale of Wigan, Chester and Rock Ferry depots has been called off Apparently due to the West Coast franchise bid collapsing, other sales have been called off too. Same source (driver at Chester) reports that it was rumoured that Wigan was to be sold to NatEx Group! by John Eclipse Urban from Facebook send to this from rock Ferry driver.

Thank you,

Martyn

 

[MK Tom]

According to a recent post to the First-Group-Fans Yahoo! Group, the sale of Wigan, Chester and Rock Ferry depots has been called off Apparently due to the West Coast franchise bid collapsing, other sales have been called off too. Same source (driver at Chester) reports that it was rumoured that Wigan was to be sold to NatEx Group! by John Eclipse Urban from Facebook send to this from rock Ferry driver.

Thank you,

Martyn

What of Northampton????

 

[Scania3379man]

MK Tom,

I have no idea, sorry forgive me. I don't know if anyone know about Northampton news.

sorry pal,

Martyn.

 

[MK Tom]

MK Tom,

I have no idea, sorry forgive me. I don't know if anyone know about Northampton news.

sorry pal,

Martyn.

No worries; Northampton's always the last place to get mentioned whenever First are involved.