First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

its been reported by the FT that Greyhound services in UK have made £600,000 losses in its latest figures.
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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1512d88c-0995-11e2-a5a9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz289PFlBZE

What began three years ago with American rock music and live greyhound dogs as promotional tools looks set to end at Stand 5, a forlorn parking space 100 meters from Victoria coach station.
It was here last Tuesday that a single passenger disembarked from a 41-seater coach that makes up one of the four daily Greyhound services from Southampton. “We had two customers but only one turned up,” said the driver

FirstGroup first brought the Greyhound brand to the UK in the late summer of 2009, two years after it bought the US business, whose coaches dominate that market and embody American culture of the open road.
But in the UK, the brand is on the brink of extinction as its parent company focuses on bigger problems in other parts of the business.
None is more troubled than Greyhound UK, however.
The company lost almost £600,000 in the year to March 2011, its most recent reported financial period, on £1.2m in revenues. And while sales were on the rise, that trend may be difficult to maintain in a division starved of investment.
“We aren’t pursuing the coach market in a big way in the UK,” Tim O’Toole, FirstGroup’s chief executive, told the FT. “Greyhound is performing some niche, important bits that you wouldn’t get rid of but it isn’t an area where we’ve focused.”
He added: “Greyhound, although it got great publicity when it was launched because it’s an iconic brand, was largely a rebranding of existing services.”
Some industry-watchers doubt whether Mr O’Toole would hesitate to shut the operator down with long-distance intercity services from London now reduced to a core of eight services a day to the Southampton and Portsmouth area compared with 40 at launch.
The number of Greyhound drivers has shrunk from 19 to seven on the London routes and four coaches serving just five destinations, having started with 11 with plans for more.
The latest casualty is the overnight service to Glasgow, which saw its last service Sunday. Four other coaches still operate a regular service between Cardiff and Swansea in Wales.
Greyhound UK lost its dedicated management team last year with bus depot managers from First’s South West and Wales division now in charge.
“The management at the bus depot have no idea how to run a coach operation,” said a person at the company who asked not to be named.
FirstGroup’s retreat comes as its rivals, National Express – celebrating its 40th anniversary this month – and Megabus UK, a division of Stagecoach, ramp up their intercity services.
Chris Cheek, an analyst at transport advisory group TAS, sees the coach passenger market growing.
But he questions whether Greyhound UK’s premium offering, with passengers paying slightly more for generous leg-room, free Wifi and power sockets, makes sense in the market.
That is not the view being taken by FirstGroup’s US managers. There, the original – and much bigger – Greyhound business is growing again after several difficult years, thanks in part to the new Greyhound Express brand, which offers amenities similar to those on the Greyhound UK services.
Alex Warner, who set up the UK business but left FirstGroup in March last year, argues there are still opportunities in the British market.
“If I were a millionaire, I’d buy the brand,” he said last week. “The age of the coach is here, or coming soon.”

 

[MCW]

I really think that first have no bloody clue what they are doing.

 

[robertclark125]

I really think that first have no bloody clue what they are doing.

Oh you noticed?

The thing is, do/will First learn from the failure of Greyhound? Take Stagecoach and the Yellow Taxibus service. It failed, after 3 or 4 years, but stagecoach examined what went well in the oepration, and what didn't go too well. These lessons were learned for the Fife route 94. And, the data was also passed onto Fife Council, for their Go Flexi services in rural parts of North Fife.

 

[tbtc]

None is more troubled than Greyhound UK, however.
The company lost almost £600,000 in the year to March 2011, its most recent reported financial period, on £1.2m in revenues

Seems amazing to lose so much money on just three routes?

They were basically only getting sixty six pence of revenue for every pound they were spending?

Presumably Stagecoach took a similar hit on Megabus in their early days.They tried some routes that didn't work (M92 to St Andrews), but they focussed on what worked and have stuck with it.

First are good at coming up with ideas (ftr, Greyhound, bendi-buses...) but not progressing them. Hence all the old (step entrance) Olympians trundling round South Yorkshire whilst low floor bendi-buses are effectively redundant after just a decade of service.

 

[overthewater]

Big Difference, Stagecoach used 20 year old Deckers to get Megabus off the ground, I dare say there did not make big losses. To be fair Greyhound was up market, but it never took off in the right areas, There should have tried

* London - Norwich
* London - Cornwall
* London - Leed

With the Top spec coaches, that could have worked. With Losses like this First cant keep going on like that.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Some interesting discussion and comparisons here, also mentioning the other, much larger Intercity coach company in the group, Aircoach in Ireland which has 65 vehicles and seven routes but also is suffering.

http://omnibuses.blogspot.ie/2012/10/greyhound-endangered-species.html

 

[overthewater]

With First no longer getting the West coast, could this mean a change of heart in selling off asset since more free cash could be used on paying off debt,

 

[bb21]

Big Difference, Stagecoach used 20 year old Deckers to get Megabus off the ground, I dare say there did not make big losses. To be fair Greyhound was up market, but it never took off in the right areas, There should have tried

* London - Norwich
* London - Cornwall
* London - Leed

With the Top spec coaches, that could have worked. With Losses like this First cant keep going on like that.

I echo these sentiments. Greyhound UK is a distinctly more upmarket product sold at rock-bottom prices. The problems are multi-fold.

Firstly the routes are wrong, competing with railways is never a winner, if the rail system is efficient. Both Southampton and Portsmouth have frequent connections to London and arrive at a much more convenient location than Green Line coach station, for access to the city in particular. The golden rule of a coach company competing against rail companies is to target areas poorly served by the railway, an example of the success being the Medway towns.

Secondly it is poorly marketed. Six months after Greyhound started running three daily services to Bournemouth, the local paper did a survey and less than 10% of the people waiting at the interchange for their coaches to London were aware of Greyhound. I have travelled their services many a time when they ran to Bournemouth and I have only on one occasion seen more than 10 passengers on the 41-seater coach. Don't get me wrong, they have a lovely product, with comfy leather seats, ample leg-room and free WiFi and I loved it, nevertheless if your potential market is not aware of your product then you can never return a profit.

Things need to change, and pretty quickly too.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well I for one think that first need to simply focus on what they grew up doing, running service buses. They dont do innovation, I have lost all confidence in them as a rail opperater and as a result of there multiple businesses, sidelines and new ideas that never quite got started, there core business and the people who work in it and use it has suffered.
Posted from (yet another) broken down, poorly mained Olimpian somewhere in Central Scotland on a route which unfortunately is not served by stagecoach who manage easily to do buses, trains, coaches, innovation and lots lots more and somehow still manage to keep an iconic old breed of vehicle like the oli in the same nick it was in when first delivered.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

First have apparently been in discussions with National Express about Kidderminster and Redditch according to http://wmbusphotos.com/forum/index.php?topic=911.0;wap2

 

[Blindtraveler]

an X route extention to the existing NXWM Network? i like and not just because it rids a few more routes of Firsts excuse for a service but if they take that and maybe then expand further in that direction then when London Midlands franchise comes up NX may have a harder time getting it back?

 

[anthony263]

The south wales greyhound service does seem to be doing very well especially since they have to run duplicates at times especially on the 09:45 & 10:15 departures from Swansea.

I did email the management of the UK Greyhound when they launched the south wales service suggesting that they extend some services through to places such as Bristol & London especially with the reduction of National express services running west of Cardiff and that there are only 1 or two direct services from west wales & Swansea to London per day offered by National express or Megabus.

I have noticed a sharp increase in the number of passengers using Megabus to travel between Cardiff & London recently and I wonder if the new double deck coaches are part of the reason

 

[Blindtraveler]

could First fill a decker for London once a day?

 

[robertclark125]

could First fill a decker for London once a day?

Could first fill a decker full stop?

 

[tbtc]

I did email the management of the UK Greyhound when they launched the south wales service suggesting that they extend some services through to places such as Bristol & London

could First fill a decker for London once a day?

Could first fill a decker full stop?

The question is, would First want to flog dozens of cheap coach seats to compete against their trains between Swansea/ Cardiff and London?

Stagecoach are canny enough to compete against themselves (some Megabus routes competed with existing Stagecoach coach services, MagicBus competes with existing Stagecoach bus services), but I can't see First taking that approach (as long as they hold the Great Western franchise).

 

[overthewater]

Its been reported that Glasgow is due more new buses before April and new route/branding.

So Glasgow, Aberdeen, Falkirk, are all getting improved, yet Livingston is still being left to rot WHY, no now fleet, or colour scheme. its lost about 20 shift/buses and is cutting back alot. I cant find anyone to answer it whats going on.

Which English depots are bar Northampton, is filled with out of date stock? no new colours, no new ideas....

 

[tbtc]

Glasgow, Aberdeen, Falkirk, are all getting improved

I thought Aberdeen and Falkirk were seeing big service reductions?

 

[overthewater]

I thought Aberdeen and Falkirk were seeing big service reductions?

Aberdeen has only seen small pvp reductions, the changes in Falkirk see NO pvp reductions what so ever, but a number of crappy routes are being withdrawn with the freed up buses allowing for improvements on other routes.

 

[Qwerty133]

Its been reported that Glasgow is due more new buses before April and new route/branding.

So Glasgow, Aberdeen, Falkirk, are all getting improved, yet Livingston is still being left to rot WHY, no now fleet, or colour scheme. its lost about 20 shift/buses and is cutting back alot. I cant find anyone to answer it whats going on.

Which English depots are bar Northampton, is filled with out of date stock? no new colours, no new ideas....

Unless something's changed very recently Leicester has no new colours and ideas and stock that keeps breaking down

 

[Ivo]

Which English depots are bar Northampton, is filled with out of date stock? no new colours, no new ideas....

More common than you might think, albeit not to the same drastic level as that seen in Northampton (which is on a pretty much unique scale). Around here, Bridgwater seems to be a dud along these lines, which is almost entirely 10+ years old; to my knowledge, there are four 2009 Enviros and nothing else newer than 02-reg. Many depots outside of major cities have seen a lack of investment over the years as they have become depository locations for outdated London stock (the depot nearest to home, Hadleigh, springs to mind).

I would have liked to say Bath, in retaliation for us still having mid-90s Lances (as early as January 1994), numerous Step Darts and some horrendous early Pointer 2 models from Mainline, but that would not be fair considering that (a) we are getting some 62-reg Deckers very soon and (b) that would also suggest that planning is downhill, when I've done some of it...

Unless something's changed very recently Leicester has no new colours and ideas and stock that keeps breaking down

I thought Leicester were supposed to be getting at least some of the decent stuff - what little there is/was - from Northampton?

 

[BuhSnarf]

As far as I have seen there is nothing new for Leicester yet.


Sent while mobile...

 

[MCW]

Nothing new for Leicester, we had no transfers in from Northampton, all the decent stuff wen to Eastern Counties. Eastern sent their Scania singles to Northampton leaving two 54 reg gemini's, the two old volvos 121 and 122 and that's about it.

First need the new livery and need the buses refurbishing, the interiors are tired, the seats are going threadbare, and the mechanical state of the buses is coming into question, they have had a lot of breakdowns and tow aways recently, which for First, is very rare here in Leicester.

 

[Ivo]

They have had a lot of breakdowns and tow aways recently, which for First, is very rare here in Leicester.

One thing to smile about I suppose

By contrast, apparently Bath have the highest crash per vehicle mile rate of any First depot in the country hock:

 

[Polarbear]

Which English depots are bar Northampton, is filled with out of date stock? no new colours, no new ideas....

Both Rock Ferry & Chester definately fall into this category. Many "R" registered Scania's which date back to 1996 & certainly no new paintwork to be seen anywhere.

 

[overthewater]

There the problem, some area are moving forward, others are being left beside. With a few just roting away, with no details of sell off. Share price dropping and debt increasing.
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By contrast, apparently Bath have the highest crash per vehicle mile rate of any First depot in the country hock:

There is a double edge sword, If Bath does such a good job we tinker with it. It also mean it can be left alone to being great. I doubt it need a better imagine?

Both Rock Ferry & Chester definately fall into this category. Many "R" registered Scania's which date back to 1996 & certainly no new paintwork to be seen anywhere.

Still No news about those depots?

 

[sonic2009]

I must say on a trip out around Northampton, Wellinborough and Kettering.

That Greyfriars Bus Station is a DUMP

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

 

[A0]

I must say on a trip out around Northampton, Wellinborough and Kettering.

That Greyfriars Bus Station is a DUMP

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

Tell me about it - yet somebody was arguing with me on these boards a couple of months back that the damn thing should actually be kept :roll:

 

[MK Tom]

Tell me about it - yet somebody was arguing with me on these boards a couple of months back that the damn thing should actually be kept :roll:

Was that me? I think what I was doing was arguing that Northampton needed a bigger bus station than the proposed replacement... not quite the same thing!

 

[A0]

Was that me? I think what I was doing was arguing that Northampton needed a bigger bus station than the proposed replacement... not quite the same thing!

Yep - and I'm happy to requote you:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63290&page=3

"For all its faults Greyfriars handles the traffic it needs to handle very well. A lot would change if it was kitted out with better paintwork, powered doors, more lighting, more security and more shop outlets and other things to liven the place up a bit. It's dark and grotty because it hasn't been looked after, which is true for the town centre at large. With some TLC and some refurbishment work the existing station can be made pleasant and usable"

Whereas my contention was - along with most of Northampton - is that the place is a dump; a complete eyesore, for which demolition is by far the most preferable option. Really you'd struggle for any new build to be worse.

 

[MK Tom]

Yep - and I'm happy to requote you:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63290&page=3

"For all its faults Greyfriars handles the traffic it needs to handle very well. A lot would change if it was kitted out with better paintwork, powered doors, more lighting, more security and more shop outlets and other things to liven the place up a bit. It's dark and grotty because it hasn't been looked after, which is true for the town centre at large. With some TLC and some refurbishment work the existing station can be made pleasant and usable"

Whereas my contention was - along with most of Northampton - is that the place is a dump; a complete eyesore, for which demolition is by far the most preferable option. Really you'd struggle for any new build to be worse.

Hmm I stand by my quote but I don't oppose demolition either. I think having adequate transport infrastructure for a city of 210,000 is more important than having an attractive building so I oppose a scheme to replace Greyfriars with a facility providing far fewer bus bays and a far smaller waiting area with worse pedestrian connections. I would support a scheme that replaced it with a facility offering the same or better provision for bus services. I don't think Northampton's centre would benefit from more bus services being forced onto the Drapery stops and other on-street areas. Whilst it's good to have those stops for local services to give people closer links to the specific area of the centre they want, they aren't suitable for terminating a large volume of services. It'd murder a street that's already a bit of a mess in terms of pedestrian and vehicle movement.

BTW yes I did just call Northampton a city. Whatever the Queen thinks, calling such a huge place a town is just a joke. But we digress from the thread topic!