First Group: General Discussion

[Blindtraveler]

my guesses are: new vehicles to Yorkshire, Glasgow, Manchester. Cascades to some other depots but anywhere that doesnt get iether is as good as sold/deregistered

 

[tbtc]

my guesses are: new vehicles to Yorkshire, Glasgow, Manchester

The question is where in those operations though - there's quite a variety between operations in each of the three examples that you've mentioned (e.g. central Glasgow vs Cumbernauld/ Dumbarton, Leeds vs Doncaster, central Manchester vs Wigan), so I think we'd need to consider things on a "garage by garage" basis to gain any real insight into longer term plans for each area.

 

[overthewater]

The question is where in those operations though - there's quite a variety between operations in each of the three examples that you've mentioned (e.g. central Glasgow vs Cumbernauld/ Dumbarton, Leeds vs Doncaster, central Manchester vs Wigan), so I think we'd need to consider things on a "garage by garage" basis to gain any real insight into longer term plans for each area.

It might also help figure out which depot may be up for sale, well why send brand new buses to place where are up for the chop!

 

[Smethwickian]

Agree, most people tend to know whether it's arriva or first here in Leicester mainly due to the day tickets not working on both. I think if there was inter operator tickets they'd know the difference a la London..

Is there not now a Flexi Day ticket valid on First, Arriva, Centrebus and several others in central Leicestershire?

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/leicester/tickets/flexi_day/
http://www.centrebus.info/Pages/DayTickets.aspx

 

[37012]

It might also help figure out which depot may be up for sale, well why send brand new buses to place where are up for the chop!

The cynic in me would think that they'd send them too threatened depots to make the losses seem bigger than they are for the accountants benefit

 

[BuhSnarf]

Is there not now a Flexi Day ticket valid on First, Arriva, Centrebus and several others in central Leicestershire?

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/leicester/tickets/flexi_day/
http://www.centrebus.info/Pages/DayTickets.aspx

There is but doesn't cover all areas (for example my work) and can only do day pass, no week or monthly.

Sent from my Galaxy S2 with Tapatalk.

 

[MCW]

Is there not now a Flexi Day ticket valid on First, Arriva, Centrebus and several others in central Leicestershire?

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/leicester/tickets/flexi_day/
http://www.centrebus.info/Pages/DayTickets.aspx

Regarding the weekly and monthly, through out my campaigning it keeps getting mentioned. I work with Campaign for Better Transport as well and we keep saying to the county council and the city council: 'When?'

I am fed up of them dazing about on the matter as it's a bloody simple thing to put in place in contrast with some stuff that's going on.

The plans are also in semi limbo due to the A426 development due planning starting in october.

but that's all i'm saying here on that matter as this is off topic. However I am happy to answer questions via PM on the matter or in a dedicated thread.

 

[mbonwick]

Stagecoach management have been spotted at First's Rock Ferry depot, which is very suggestive.

 

[robertclark125]

Stagecoach management have been spotted at First's Rock Ferry depot, which is very suggestive.

I agree Michael, and I should add, that could end up squaring a circle if it were to happen. Stagecoach Merseyside is of course Glenvale transport, and when GTL was an independent firm, there were rumours they wanted to establish a bigger presence on the Wirral (they just had one route in that area), by buying Rock Ferry.

Needless to say, it didn't go ahead, and stagecoach bought GTL. Hence me saying the squaring of a circle.

 

[Polarbear]

Stagecoach management have been spotted at First's Rock Ferry depot, which is very suggestive.

Agreed - very interesting. Makes sense too as Stagecoach still wouldn't be the predominant operator in Merseyside, even with the acquisition of First's operations on the Wirral.

One wonders if Chester would be part of the deal?

Off topic slightly, but one thought that I had was that if Stagecoach bought both Chester & Rock Ferry, they may also look at buying into one or more of the independent operators on the patch? That way, they'd get a larger stake of operations in an otherwise Arriva dominated area. Not all of the profitable routes are run by Arriva or First around here.

For example, service 82 (Chester-Northwich) used to be operated by Arriva on an hourly frequency with Alexander bodied Mercedes 709's (oh the joy). Since GHA took over, the route has been developed & now operates every 30 minutes with (mostly) saloons, 6 days per week.

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach management have been spotted at First's Rock Ferry depot, which is very suggestive.

I still keep hearing talk first are selling off at least on Scottish depot. But no announcement will happen until after London games at the end of August.

 

[robertclark125]

Claims still persist about Cumbernauld going to Stagecoach. Notably it's one of jsut two ex KCB/SBG depots still in use at First Glasgow (motherwell being the other).

 

[overthewater]

Claims still persist about Cumbernauld going to Stagecoach. Notably it's one of jsut two ex KCB/SBG depots still in use at First Glasgow (motherwell being the other).

Motherwell is closed down and was replace with Blantyre and Overtown. The other depot that keeps popping up is Livingston which could in effort kill off the FSE licences

 

[robertclark125]

Whoops, didn't realise that, my apologies. Well, that makes Cumbernauld the only ex KCB/SBG depot still in use at First Glasgow. Livingston goes on, but a driver I've spoken to at Stagecoach Fife doesn't think it'll go to Stagecoach, and in fact, doesn't think it'll be sold, having spoken to drivers on First's 651 service.

However, if the operations aren't performing as First expect, then why not sell?

Although, I think First may be better asking why aren't these areas performing better, and trying to fix things, and have a go at revitalising, rather than selling. Stagecoach did with the east lancs operations, but ultimately couldn't, and sold them to Blazefield. And in any case, First is hoping for £100 million. After what has happened in Devon and Dalkeith, they may well be lucky to see even half that.

 

[overthewater]

The reason which it all boilers down to with Livingston is to do with the new West Lothian council contracts which start on the 1st October:

* ALL buses must be 51 plate or younger
* Must give change.

Livingston does not give change (nor does Horsburgh) and well to be honest there running really low on 51 plate and younger buses in the depot, R reg darts will not cut the mustered. It also does not help that Livingston depot is still short of operation buses.

Hence the reason there is some meat/ at least something to back up to prove something is going on.

 

[317 forever]

Motherwell is closed down and was replace with Blantyre and Overtown. The other depot that keeps popping up is Livingston which could in effort kill off the FSE licences

I wonder what has happened to First routes in Dumbartonshire that used to be operated by Kelvin Central ie which garages house them now?

Apparently repaints have started on Scania Omnidekkas at Livingston, which appears to make such a sale less likely. Unless that is, the Edinburgh routes transfer to Linlithgow. As route 38 uses 09-reg high-back seated Volvo B7RLE-Eclipses, I think Linlithgow is here to stay.

In addition to First's "hitlist" they are said to be willing to consider reasonable offers for any parts of the business.

 

[overthewater]

I wonder what has happened to First routes in Dumbartonshire that used to be operated by Kelvin Central ie which garages house them now?

Apparently repaints have started on Scania Omnidekkas at Livingston, which appears to make such a sale less likely. Unless that is, the Edinburgh routes transfer to Linlithgow. As route 38 uses 09-reg high-back seated Volvo B7RLE-Eclipses, I think Linlithgow is here to stay.

In addition to First's "hitlist" they are said to be willing to consider reasonable offers for any parts of the business.

204/5 etc are still going strong, and are due new buses shortly.

The Talk is Livingston is to lose all its Scania Omindekkas to depots down south

 

[tbtc]

if the operations aren't performing as First expect, then why not sell?

I suppose the counter argument is that Stagecoach/ Arriva/ Go-Ahead (etc) aren't going to pay much for operations that are losing large sums of money - it's going to be a bit of a "fire sale" in that case.

Some depots like Livi and Cumbernauld look ideal Stagecoach territory, running "town" services and ones into the big city (whilst First are more of an "urban" operator), so I could see why they are interested (e.g. look at how they've improved commuter services from Fife into Edinburgh whilst equivalent services from West Lothian into Edinburgh have stagnated.

 

[robertclark125]

The reason for the success of the services from Fife to Edinburgh is Ferrytoll, which Stagecoach helped develop. The rather poor morning train service along the fife coast, well documented, helps the bus as well.

While mentioning First selling, here could be a spanner in the works, as someone on another thread, I don't know where and who, suggested Arriva might buy Rotala. Is it conceivable that a potential buyer of First's operations may get taken over itself, and then the deals with First either change, or get called off?

 

[tbtc]

The reason for the success of the services from Fife to Edinburgh is Ferrytoll, which Stagecoach helped develop. The rather poor morning train service along the fife coast, well documented, helps the bus as well

Train services over the Forth Bridge at privatisation were three an hour. They are now around seven an hour, yet the bus service has grown massively thanks to Stagecoach.

Compare that to how the Bathgate - Edinburgh bus service has deteriorated over the same period... I think Stagecoach would have made a much better go at running the old Eastern Scottish services.

 

[overthewater]

Train services over the Forth Bridge at privatisation were three an hour. They are now around seven an hour, yet the bus service has grown massively thanks to Stagecoach.

Compare that to how the Bathgate - Edinburgh bus service has deteriorated over the same period... I think Stagecoach would have made a much better go at running the old Eastern Scottish services.

Scotrail still dont have enough seats at peaks thus have to use Diesel puller with ancient Mk3 just to get seats.

Also First never seem to be good at Express or coach routes, Just look at the old X1, but of course there not destroyed there own bus express route to get more people on to the trains, even if train links to Sighthill, gyle, RBS are crap :roll:

 

[tbtc]

Scotrail still dont have enough seats at peaks thus have to use Diesel puller with ancient Mk3 just to get seats.

Also First never seem to be good at Express or coach routes, Just look at the old X1, but of course there not destroyed there own bus express route to get more people on to the trains, even if train links to Sighthill, gyle, RBS are crap :roll:

Compare the way that Stagecoach link Fife to Edinburgh Airport/ Leith/ The Gyle/ Herriot Watt/ RBS with the way that First don't seem to have recognised the changing travel patterns and only really link West Lothian with central Edinburgh (e.g. those 20/21/22s that terminate at Broxburn could extend to the Airport/ Gyle).

West Lothian looks ripe for expansion (despite the electrification of the Bathgate line, there's surely untapped demand for a fast service from *central* Livi to Edinburgh or better use of the M8). Instead First have made lots of gradual cutbacks to commercial routes whilst letting Horsbrough win enough tenders to get market share.

 

[overthewater]

Compare the way that Stagecoach link Fife to Edinburgh Airport/ Leith/ The Gyle/ Herriot Watt/ RBS with the way that First don't seem to have recognised the changing travel patterns and only really link West Lothian with central Edinburgh (e.g. those 20/21/22s that terminate at Broxburn could extend to the Airport/ Gyle).

West Lothian looks ripe for expansion (despite the electrification of the Bathgate line, there's surely untapped demand for a fast service from *central* Livi to Edinburgh or better use of the M8). Instead First have made lots of gradual cutbacks to commercial routes whilst letting Horsbrough win enough tenders to get market share.

Remember Livingston is also the last Depot to have "Controls route" placed on it from its Scotrail operations. Thus some of the route have to operate the same crappy way.

Dont expect Horsbrough to win alot of tenders either as I have heard there not doing to great and have lost all there Falkirk school work since there can not afford to upgrade there double deckers to 18 years or younger.

 

[mbonwick]

While mentioning First selling, here could be a spanner in the works, as someone on another thread, I don't know where and who, suggested Arriva might buy Rotala. Is it conceivable that a potential buyer of First's operations may get taken over itself, and then the deals with First either change, or get called off?

I will believe that when I see it. If you've done any research on Rotala then you'll know that they don't have the funds to do any more expanding. Preston was funded by a loan secured against the vehicles, and has resulted in a higher % rise in overheads compared to profit.

 

[robertclark125]

Although I mentioned Rotala, with the claim someone elsewhere made, I was meaning in general, any potential bidder, be it Centrebus, RATP, Transdev Blazefield, or for that matter any independents.

Incidentally, with Rock ferry, if it does go onto Stagecoach, presumabley it'll be placed on the GTL licence?

 

[overthewater]

I'm hearing it has gone to stagecoach, and it will be announced just after the games have finished. No idea about anything else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Along with the talk that Chester is gone, there is talk that First are planning to pull the rest of the East Lothian routes once and for all with Lothian taking over Before end of October. Any ideas?

 

[Scania3379man]

Hi guys,

I been read all your comment from 1 to 24 number.

I live in wigan all my life. I just wonder why Wigan want selling? for low profile, correct?

I absolutely thought transdev or Rotala. One of my friend said it is possible Arriva would like to buy on Wigan cos st helens and Bolton is arriva company so I thought might be Arriva likely.

Thank you, Guys

Martyn

 

[mbonwick]

Wigan is making First very little money, and has an aging fleet.

I've no doubt Arriva would be interested, but the competition authorities would have a field day if they were to buy it.

 

[robertclark125]

One other aspect with all these potential sales. Wigan operates a large amount of school contracts (or it did last time I checked, but that was a few years ago!), under contract to either the local education authority or the PTE. In Strathclyde, if a firm holding some contracts is taken over by another firm, then the PTE will only allow the new owners to have those contracts on a short term basis, while they're retendered. In Fife, the policy is that the new owners will keep the contracts right to the end. What's the policy in other locations rumoured to be up for sale.

 

[MK Tom]

Sorry I know I reliably ask this every three or four weeks, but do we have any more news or rumour from Northampton? Any indicators or... just anything?