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overthewater

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More news from the North Devon Merry Go Round. Seems First arn't going to be getting the money they want from it afterall, but this could in theory, also backfire on Stagecoaches hands too?

Stagecoach Press Release:

http://stagecoach.com/media/news-releases/2012/2012-07-25.aspx

Omnibus blog:
http://omnibuses.blogspot.co.uk/

No, as stagecoach has started doing what the CC wanted, it just means first will pull. Its been said around here that stagecoach still end up buying the depot maybe for a million? thus first still get some cash and frees up buses for else where.
 

MCW

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so I take it its gone quiet on the other fronts for now???

also I wish they would sell Leicester... the service has been c*** for two weeks, absolutely abysmal, anything and everything has gone bloody wrong.

anyways... northampton... any new scrap heaps arrived there for service yet?
 

tbtc

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Its been said around here that stagecoach still end up buying the depot maybe for a million? thus first still get some cash and frees up buses for else where.

Stagecoach don't need to buy the depot (they may need more land, but there's certainly no obligation to throw any cash First's way) - the increase in Stagecoach's PVR is going to be a good bit lower than the number of buses First are getting rid of.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
More news from the North Devon Merry Go Round. Seems First arn't going to be getting the money they want from it afterall, but this could in theory, also backfire on Stagecoaches hands too?

I don't know how it could backfire on Stagecoach - they have saved £3m and can now pick only the drivers they want (no TUPE to protect First staff) and the routes they want (e.g. if Stagecoach had bought First's operations then they'd have been the Bad Guys withdrawing marginal First routes - this way Stagecoach are the Good Guys coming in to "rescue" the best bits of First's operations).

Great news for Stagecoach, as I see it
 

mbonwick

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BBC quoting a PVR of about 12, so call it 15 vehicles. That should be easy to accomodate at the existing depot, even if its a bit of a squeeze.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The last 4 Scanias have been transferred in to Northampton - [FONT=&quot]65557/8 65569 65570, and the last 2 B7Ls have left.

Northampton is now B7L free/all Scania for single decks I believe.
[/FONT]
 

MK Tom

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BBC quoting a PVR of about 12, so call it 15 vehicles. That should be easy to accomodate at the existing depot, even if its a bit of a squeeze.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The last 4 Scanias have been transferred in to Northampton - [FONT=&quot]65557/8 65569 65570, and the last 2 B7Ls have left.

Northampton is now B7L free/all Scania for single decks I believe.
[/FONT]

What about the Geminis? Those going to Norwich too?
 

MCW

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What about the Geminis? Those going to Norwich too?

Unless I have read the fleet list wrong on wmbusphotos then yes. all the luton vehicles are still intact as they were before as well, even though they technically come under Northampton, which I find interesting.
 

MK Tom

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One of my big questions about the Northampton sell-off is what will happen to the Luton shuttle and the vehicles that run it. I can't really see it being run from London, you'd break the driver time laws just getting up there to start the day.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On another note, someone should tell first that it's the 4 that goes to Kingsthorpe... http://wmbusphotos.com/FirstNorthampton/65556.html
 

A0

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The fact it is too big for what Stagecoach need means it will cost more than necessaryand the only way to cover that will be increase prices or cut costs.

The facilities don't look to be in particularly good condition either, so why buy something which isn't what they need or want?

There is also a tendency to site depots away from housing areas owing to noise and pollution complaints. And being tucked away on an industrial estate tends to be out of the way of "casual" vandals, as well as being cheaper.

On the Megabus comment, Rugby to the M1 is no real distance and Rugby is closer to the M6, M42 and Birmingham, so not sure how or why Stagecoach would benefit by moving that away from Rugby?

Just to add to this - on another board, it was stated by a couple of posters that First no longer own the depot in Northampton - it is only leased, which presumably means that there isn't a financial gain to be had from that as First realised that particular asset sometime in the past.
 

tbtc

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Just to add to this - on another board, it was stated by a couple of posters that First no longer own the depot in Northampton - it is only leased, which presumably means that there isn't a financial gain to be had from that as First realised that particular asset sometime in the past.

So Northampton could be another Dalkeith (where they just abandon services, without owning the depot)?

In which case there's nothing to sell (other than some Scania L113s etc).

They might be getting rid of some unprofitable areas/ old buses but they certainly won't be getting the revenue from these that they wanted.
 

MK Tom

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Can anyone explain to me why a company that's disposing of six or whatever number it is operations to save costs is also entering into an all-out bus war with a municipal operator in Ipswich?
 

robertclark125

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Can anyone explain to me why a company that's disposing of six or whatever number it is operations to save costs is also entering into an all-out bus war with a municipal operator in Ipswich?

Simply local management. The Eastern Counties operations, which include Ipswich, will make money and have potential in that area, the local management at what is First Anglia (or whatever it's called) have decided. Meanwhile, the First Midlands management who look after Leicester and Northampton feel their operations need to be scaled back to preserve profits, reduce costs, and indeed don't have as much potential.

People often forget, and this was always the case with stagecoach in the 1990s, that no two Stagecoach firms are the same. They may share the same livery, but what one operation decides to do is different from what another does. For instance, Stagecoach Busways fended off competition from HMB Buses in Newcastle using megabus liveried vehicles. Stagecoach Fife, in its bus war with fifefirst, from 1997-2000, didn't, and stuck to its normal operating methods.

It's also worth noting that back in 1997, when FifeFirst launched (as a result of Stagecoach incursions in Glasgow), that Firstgroup (they were the driving force behind it, not local management) were looking at other operations in Fife, and were looking to maintain a prescence for 10 years in Fife on the 56 (which duplicated the Stagecoach Fife 19).

By June 2000, Fifefirst was losing money, nto helped by very tight schedules between Edinburgh and Dunfermline, which turned out to be too tight, and resulted in large gaps in service. Not only that, but a resurgent Stagecoach Fife had bought out allisons of Dunfermline. Furthermore, FifeFirst had only an outstation in Dunfermline, meaning a breakdown required another bus to come all the way over from Dalkeith, in Midlothian. This was all decided by Firstgroup management in Aberdeen, wheras Stagecoach Fife's response was formulated in their Kirkcaldy head office, with limited input from Perth group HQ.

Having lost that bus war, and the subsequent 2002 battle with Lothian Buses, is it any wonder First's confidence in Mid and East Lothian was dented, and also perhaps with uk operations as a whole.

That said, maybe the way Stagecoach, and Go Ahead, run their operations shows the way forward that First hasn't really grasped; UK group management, look in at times, but in the main, the local management make the main local decisions, not group HQ.

Perhaps that shows up the issues facing First. A management that doesn't know its true operating area, and that's why they're not doing too well.
 

overthewater

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I do remember some of the roller blind buses had alot of destinations fro west fife in them, I wonder why there not went forward with the plans?

Both companies with day of offering Free travel had a hell of alot of local parents complaining non stop that the kids were joy riding all over the place, and this it was stopped.

It would have been interesting if first had expanded. Saying that Ayrshire No11 last years afterwards, so I wonder why 56 was chosen for the chop?
 

robertclark125

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Basically, the 56 lost mega amounts of money. Not only that, but by 1999 Stagecoach Fife were using MAN 18.220s on the 19, so First's competitive advantage was gone in that respect. In addition, in February 2000 there was a change of top management at what was then lowland Omnibuses (where the fifefirst liveried vehicles were registered), and there is no doubt they decided it wasn't worth continuing the service.
 

MCW

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Meanwhile, the First Midlands management who look after Leicester and Northampton feel their operations need to be scaled back to preserve profits, reduce costs, and indeed don't have as much potential.
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cut down
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Perhaps that shows up the issues facing First. A management that doesn't know its true operating area, and that's why they're not doing too well.

and there, ladies and gents, is the very reason that Leicester and moreso Northampton are getting screwed over as we speak.

Also they are chopping back timetables in Leicester they keep messing with the frequencies a lot. we also keep getting sporadic weird movements of vehicles which many of us here in Leicester don't recognise. we think they are playing about with allocations as well to try and make it all work properly before leaving Northampton. only problem is it's messing us around!!!


the last point you make is also true, I find that ever since Leicester CityBus went into the GRT group (as so Northampton) that management has gone rapidly downhill, its gone so far down with First, I think its found the centre of the earth from Lord of the rings or something....
 

37012

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the last point you make is also true, I find that ever since Leicester CityBus went into the GRT group (as so Northampton) that management has gone rapidly downhill, its gone so far down with First, I think its found the centre of the earth from Lord of the rings or something....


You could say the same about the old Lowland Scottish which has been run into the ground since it was sold the First/GRT. Eastern/SMT on the otherhand were in a pretty dire way when they were taken over by GRT
 

F Great Eastern

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The bus war in Ipswich is somewhat strange, by the time the new services by Ipswich Buses start there will be a huge oversupply in both operators by some distance and First has a very bad reputation in the Ipswich area amongst a lot of people, sometimes somewhat unfairly as it seems any negative bit of news or moan is picked up by the local press.

Also what makes me laugh to a degree is that First have sent some 2001/2, 2005 and 2008 Wright products to Ipswich for the bus war and people are moaning about old vehicles being sent over rather than anything new. Meanwhile Ipswich Buses acquire some Y reg Darts for their new services and they're full of praise for their vehicle choices. You can get if it was the other way around things would have been very different.
 

robertclark125

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The bus war in Ipswich is somewhat strange, by the time the new services by Ipswich Buses start there will be a huge oversupply in both operators by some distance and First has a very bad reputation in the Ipswich area amongst a lot of people, sometimes somewhat unfairly as it seems any negative bit of news or moan is picked up by the local press.

Also what makes me laugh to a degree is that First have sent some 2001/2, 2005 and 2008 Wright products to Ipswich for the bus war and people are moaning about old vehicles being sent over rather than anything new. Meanwhile Ipswich Buses acquire some Y reg Darts for their new services and they're full of praise for their vehicle choices. You can get if it was the other way around things would have been very different.

All I can say about the public comments in Ipswich is, there are none so deaf as those who choose not to listen, none so blind as those who choose to see only what they want.
 

F Great Eastern

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Oh I totally see where you are coming from, and of course some people are going to be put out by route changes, but my point is whenever routes are changed anywhere, there is always going to be winners and losers as it is not possible to please every single person all of the time and someone is always going to be worse off that is not exclusive to Ipswich, it happens up and down the country.

For example where I used to live a few years ago, we had no Sunday bus service, due to lack of use, 4,000 people signed a petition for it's return despite the fact each bus, at five a day, was carrying an average of 2-3 passengers and sometimes completely empty, there was uproar when it was withdrawn, it was re-instated, and again the loads were absolutely dreadful, because for all the people who signed the petition, barely any of them actually used the service.
 

robertclark125

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Oh I totally see where you are coming from, and of course some people are going to be put out by route changes, but my point is whenever routes are changed anywhere, there is always going to be winners and losers as it is not possible to please every single person all of the time and someone is always going to be worse off that is not exclusive to Ipswich, it happens up and down the country.

For example where I used to live a few years ago, we had no Sunday bus service, due to lack of use, 4,000 people signed a petition for it's return despite the fact each bus, at five a day, was carrying an average of 2-3 passengers and sometimes completely empty, there was uproar when it was withdrawn, it was re-instated, and again the loads were absolutely dreadful, because for all the people who signed the petition, barely any of them actually used the service.

Two questions need to be asked to those who signed the petition. Firstly, why are you not using it, and secondly, why did you then sign the petition if you won't use the bus?
 

tbtc

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Presumably once the post-Olympic cascades start we'll have a much better idea of which areas are "flavour of the month" and which aren't.

Place your bets now...
 

A0

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Also they are chopping back timetables in Leicester they keep messing with the frequencies a lot. we also keep getting sporadic weird movements of vehicles which many of us here in Leicester don't recognise. we think they are playing about with allocations as well to try and make it all work properly before leaving Northampton. only problem is it's messing us around!!!

Question is whether 'ordinary' passengers notice.

They will notice if the timetables keep changing or the reliability drops, but I very much doubt they notice the vehicle changes - particularly given they'll be the same colour buses turning up.
 

MK Tom

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I doubt most ordinary passengers would notice if a Stagecoach vehicle turned up provided it had the right number and destination on the front. Sad really.
 

A0

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I doubt most ordinary passengers would notice if a Stagecoach vehicle turned up provided it had the right number and destination on the front. Sad really.

Why is it sad? All an 'ordinary' passenger wants is a bus which is going where they want to go, that is clean and reasonably comfortable. Frankly they couldn't care if it was painted pink (as Uno have demonstrated).
 

MK Tom

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Why is it sad? All an 'ordinary' passenger wants is a bus which is going where they want to go, that is clean and reasonably comfortable. Frankly they couldn't care if it was painted pink (as Uno have demonstrated).

I feel it's sad because these things deserve more attention than most people give them. People moan about using public transport when it's so easy to enjoy the experience if one simply breaks out of the social constraints that make it unfashionable.

Anyway, a digression!
 

A0

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I feel it's sad because these things deserve more attention than most people give them. People moan about using public transport when it's so easy to enjoy the experience if one simply breaks out of the social constraints that make it unfashionable.

Anyway, a digression!

I think most 'ordinary' people moan about using Public Transport because it doesn't go where they want to when they want to - or the vehicles (rail or road) are old / dirty and they are served by staff who are at best unhelpful and at worst, downright rude.

Now, I accept that what I've said is the worst case scenario, but that's the one which people always remember.

Most people don't really care about the car they drive, providing it's comfortable and reliable and have little interest or knowledge in it beyond that - as can be evidenced by the sheer number of people who buy a VW Golf on the basis it's a comfortable and reliable car when in fact it is neither.

Again - a digression.
 

bb21

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I disagree. I am of the opinion that most regular passengers will notice if a First-operated route one day suddenly changes hands and becomes a Stagecoach route.

In several places I have lived, I have observed comments from passengers when the operator of a route changes hands and many would be extra cautious to make sure that they are on the right bus.
 

BuhSnarf

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I disagree. I am of the opinion that most regular passengers will notice if a First-operated route one day suddenly changes hands and becomes a Stagecoach route.

In several places I have lived, I have observed comments from passengers when the operator of a route changes hands and many would be extra cautious to make sure that they are on the right bus.

Agree, most people tend to know whether it's arriva or first here in Leicester mainly due to the day tickets not working on both. I think if there was inter operator tickets they'd know the difference a la London.

Sent from my Galaxy S2 with Tapatalk.
 

MCW

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Agree, most people tend to know whether it's arriva or first here in Leicester mainly due to the day tickets not working on both. I think if there was inter operator tickets they'd know the difference a la London.

Sent from my Galaxy S2 with Tapatalk.

definitely agreed.

actually I think the people in Leicester would generally be happier if First and Arriva packed up and sodded off else where....

digression.

anyways, back to first. I think we definitely will have more of an idea about what is going on After the Olympics as has been said before in the thread.
 

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