First Group: General Discussion

[34D]

Many thanks 34D, very interesting blog.
The proviso for operators to allow vehicles more than 20 years old to be used for up to 20 days a year, is going to be controversial, I can see that 'preserved' vehicles could be used on xmas specials/summer festival services etc.
If I have understood this correctly then the following scenario could take place - small operator suffers vehicle breakdown, only spare available to run public service is a 20 year old Olympian normally used on dedicated school run only(not a public service), wheelchair user cannot board, complaint followed by legal proceedings, operator uses defence of the '20 year old, 20 day rule!'

If the school service is 'registered' then the olympian won't be able to do that either.

There has to be some fair contingency for the smaller operator.

 

[overthewater]

I take it every company has seen some sort of investment? Either in addition buses, or revised and fare network?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I take that as a yes? The only area which has yet to see anything was Leicester?

Today was D-day for the new Taunton Bus network with revised fares, hopeful it all gone to plan.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I take it every company has seen some sort of investment? Either in addition buses, or revised and fare network?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I take that as a yes? The only area which has yet to see anything was Leicester?

Today was D-day for the new Taunton Bus network with revised fares, hopeful it all gone to plan.

Potteries has some ex Veolia Solos and a bit of new paint, but as regards anything pivotal, not much has changed there, has it?

 

[robertclark125]

Anyone know what the reason is for the OFT extending the deadline for the decision on Rotala's purchase of Kidderminster and Redditch from First? Interesting to note, ever so slightly, that when the OFT announced its investigation, the Rotala share price dipped slightly, from 44.5p, to currently 43p, which is where it has stood for the last two months.

Has to be frustrating to Rotala that it has to wait on this decision, but, also, anyone down there got experience of how things have gone since the takeover?

 

[winston270twm]

Anyone know what the reason is for the OFT extending the deadline for the decision on Rotala's purchase of Kidderminster and Redditch from First? Interesting to note, ever so slightly, that when the OFT announced its investigation, the Rotala share price dipped slightly, from 44.5p, to currently 43p, which is where it has stood for the last two months.

Has to be frustrating to Rotala that it has to wait on this decision, but, also, anyone down there got experience of how things have gone since the takeover?

Not heard anything down here as to the reason. But things do seem to happening again with Rotala in Redditch such that they have very recently purchased 4 second-hand Enviro 300's for use in Redditch i.e.
30944 MX55NWL; 30945 PO54NNM; 30946 PJ08VPZ; 30947 PJ08VRY
(30944 & 30945 both ex Hanson's, 30946 & 30947 ex Premiere)

Also Dart SLF/ALX200 30902 W902JNF has been reinstated at Redditch & painted in new allover blue 'Diamond' livery, whilst sister 30903 W903JNF is also believed to now be reinstated back in service to Redditch & also repainted. The recent movements seem to indicate that Rotala are expecting a positive outcome / or have had some advanced feedback from the Oft, as they are not meant to be making any fleetchanges as part of the undertakings that were setout/agreed.

Things haven't gone too well since the takeover, mainly numerous journey's missing or running really late, large gaps in frequent services/bunching of buses, buses arriving packed leaving passengers behind, unsuitable vehicle allocations. Have a look at Diamond's Facebook page for the numerous comments posted since the date of the takeover, which will back up the above

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Not heard anything down here as to the reason. But things do seem to happening again with Rotala in Redditch such that they have very recently purchased 4 second-hand Enviro 300's for use in Redditch i.e.
30944 MX55NWL; 30945 PO54NNM; 30946 PJ08VPZ; 30947 PJ08VRY
(30944 & 30945 both ex Hanson's, 30946 & 30947 ex Premiere)

Also Dart SLF/ALX200 30902 W902JNF has been reinstated at Redditch & painted in new allover blue 'Diamond' livery, whilst sister 30903 W903JNF is also believed to now be reinstated back in service to Redditch & also repainted. The recent movements seem to indicate that Rotala are expecting a positive outcome / or have had some advanced feedback from the Oft, as they are not meant to be making any fleetchanges as part of the undertakings that were setout/agreed.

Things haven't gone too well since the takeover, mainly numerous journey's missing or running really late, large gaps in frequent services/bunching of buses, buses arriving packed leaving passengers behind, unsuitable vehicle allocations. Have a look at Diamond's Facebook page for the numerous comments posted since the date of the takeover, which will back up the above

This may be of interest...

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/mergers_ea02/undertakings-2013/DiamondBusderogation24May13

 

[winston270twm]

This may be of interest...

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/mergers_ea02/undertakings-2013/DiamondBusderogation24May13

Thanks for posting that link, hadn't seen the up until now. It seems Diamond are allowed to continue to merge the two businesses / re-paint First vehicles afterall

 

[Surreyman]

Report today that the MD of First Glasgow has been suspended.

SCOTLAND'S largest bus-operating company has been plunged into crisis after the head of its Glasgow division went on indefinite gardening leave in a suspected row over service cuts.

Ronnie Park, managing director of First Glasgow, which runs bus services in Greater Glasgow, is understood to be taking a leave of absence. It is unclear if or when he will return to the post. A senior manager from First's Aberdeen division is understood to have been appointed temporarily in his place.

Mr Park took the post in 2010 after serving for three and a half years as operations director and deputy managing director. It is understood he was unhappy about deep cuts that First's senior management expected him to implement.

One industry source told The Herald there were fears the company would now bring in a "heavy-hitter" willing to slash jobs and services.

The insider said: "[Ronnie Park has] basically been put out to pasture. It's been a long time coming. He's not exactly happy about having to make the cuts that management want him to, but the concern is now that they'll get in some kind of heavy-hitter willing to get rid of the routes that aren't making as much money as they'd like.

"You've got to think that it's not good news around the corner."

It follows warnings that bus firms could be forced out of business by the combined pressures of providing the Concessionary Travel Scheme, which allows over-60s and the disabled to travel by bus for free, and the ballooning cost of fuel and other overheads'.

 

[overthewater]

The link to the article: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...t-as-boss-park-is-put-out-to-pasture.21731850

Well this has got to be a new record by first for U-turns, not even 8 weeks and someone is wanting cuts, So much for Mr O'Tools claims the old ways don't work, someone in the link pointed out this time last year the same happened with the First Aberdeen managing director.

I wonder where the Axe will fall, I would not be surprised if: M3, M6, 8, M11, 32, 64, 65 all disappear by January. I would also not rule out more major cuts to Lanarkshire, mainly Motherwell and Cumbernauld

 

[DunsBus]

The link to the article: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...t-as-boss-park-is-put-out-to-pasture.21731850

Well this has got to be a new record by first for U-turns, not even 8 weeks and someone is wanting cuts, So much for Mr O'Tools claims the old ways don't work, someone in the link pointed out this time last year the same happened with the First Aberdeen managing director.

I wonder where the Axe will fall, I would not be surprised if: M3, M6, 8, M11, 32, 64, 65 all disappear by January. I would also not rule out more major cuts to Lanarkshire, mainly Motherwell and Cumbernauld

There may be valid reasons for Mr Park's departure and it could well be the case that the service cuts issue was the final straw.

One thing, though. The Herald is the sister to the local Glasgow evening paper, the Evening Times, which has a reputation for slagging off First Glasgow regardless of the man in charge. I wonder if this also played a part in his departure.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There may be valid reasons for Mr Park's departure and it could well be the case that the service cuts issue was the final straw.

One thing, though. The Herald is the sister to the local Glasgow evening paper, the Evening Times, which has a reputation for slagging off First Glasgow regardless of the man in charge. I wonder if this also played a part in his departure.

Very wise words, DB. Often an ulterior motive and a spin to the story - wouldn't be the first time that has happened?

 

[overthewater]

I thought the Herald was an upstanding paper. either way there has been some issues surrounding the sub routes for a while, plus we never had any confirmation if First Glasgow had managed to get out of the red. TAS tends to have a report about this around now?

 

[smtglasgow]

Suspect there is more to this than just cuts. Ronnie Park has been a manager in Glasgow for years – he was deputy to Mark Savelli. Perhaps it’s more of a case of the face not fitting in the new regime? Having said that, the recent simpliCITY changes saw some reductions on peripheral routes run in the city but left most of No.2 unscathed. With Cumbernauld depot closed, the X3 and X5 must be racking up some huge costs in dead mileage – maybe HQ thinks they should just be ditched completely? Wouldn’t be surprised to see Overton close. I think the PVR must be about 60 at most and many of its routes face competition from JMB or Coakley – some rationalising of the weaker routes (Pather, Holytown, Carluke?) and a reshuffle with Parkhead taking on some Lanarkshire routes (240, 255?) and Blantyre taking on the others (241,266) shouldn’t be too difficult. And if they’re really going for it, Dumbarton’s 1 could transfer to Scotstoun (albeit with high dead mileage) and maybe the 206, 208 could be offered up as sacrifices to McGills.

 

[Rich McLean]

In Plymouth, as far as I can see, there is a bus war still ongoing in two area's in particular.

Citybus 5/5a and First's 6 and 7 share largely the same route. I feel its only a matter of time before First axe the 6 & 7. First have even started offering cheap monthly tickets just for this route alone. Go-Ahead don't seem to be affected by this, the 5 was well loaded the other day when I used it. First however run their services 3 mins before the Citybus services, so the "catch what bus comes first" Brigade will use First.

The Eastern half of CityBus 21/21A and First services 3 share the same route. Both every 10 minutes. First are using older Wright Bodied Volvo's on this route, while CityBus are using Presidents and Tridents. How long will first last year, as this seems to be one of Go-Aheads flagship routes in the city, which first originally had the monopoly over

If first are still making cuts, I fear the days are numbers for routes 3, 6 & 7 in Plymouth

 

[robertclark125]

Suspect there is more to this than just cuts. Ronnie Park has been a manager in Glasgow for years – he was deputy to Mark Savelli. Perhaps it’s more of a case of the face not fitting in the new regime? Having said that, the recent simpliCITY changes saw some reductions on peripheral routes run in the city but left most of No.2 unscathed. With Cumbernauld depot closed, the X3 and X5 must be racking up some huge costs in dead mileage – maybe HQ thinks they should just be ditched completely? Wouldn’t be surprised to see Overton close. I think the PVR must be about 60 at most and many of its routes face competition from JMB or Coakley – some rationalising of the weaker routes (Pather, Holytown, Carluke?) and a reshuffle with Parkhead taking on some Lanarkshire routes (240, 255?) and Blantyre taking on the others (241,266) shouldn’t be too difficult. And if they’re really going for it, Dumbarton’s 1 could transfer to Scotstoun (albeit with high dead mileage) and maybe the 206, 208 could be offered up as sacrifices to McGills.

I just wonder if Stagecoach may end up opening a base in Cumbernauld. If they do, that could lead to First axing the X3 and X5. Remember that what is now, on the face of it, First Glasgow was, at one time, two separate firms, KCB and strathclydes Buses. I'm wondering if First may end up concentrating on Glasgow city, and leaving the outliying areas, the old KCB, to others.

 

[overthewater]

I just wonder if Stagecoach may end up opening a base in Cumbernauld. If they do, that could lead to First axing the X3 and X5. Remember that what is now, on the face of it, First Glasgow was, at one time, two separate firms, KCB and strathclydes Buses. I'm wondering if First may end up concentrating on Glasgow city, and leaving the outliying areas, the old KCB, to others.

I get the feeling unless Stagecoach expands to operate other routes then I doubt a depot is forthcoming, Ie moving off the main Glasgow - Cumbernauld Corridor. IE North Cumbernauld - Glasgow or Kilsyth - Cumbernauld or other local services. Even if first pulls the X3 and X5, Stagecoach has plenty of room at the Glasgow depot to make the X25/A every 10mins and also operate the X3, plus with All Fife service using B13 shortly, plenty of seats. Bigger Question: would stagecoach enter into North Cumbernauld or Kilsyth? who knows its a lot of Ifs and buts.

We are still no further forward if the losses at FiGno2 have been wiped out? Someone did say even with the cuts made its not made a big enough difference.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I get the feeling unless Stagecoach expands to operate other routes then I doubt a depot is forthcoming, Ie moving off the main Glasgow - Cumbernauld Corridor. IE North Cumbernauld - Glasgow or Kilsyth - Cumbernauld or other local services. Even if first pulls the X3 and X5, Stagecoach has plenty of room at the Glasgow depot to make the X25/A every 10mins and also operate the X3, plus with All Fife service using B13 shortly, plenty of seats. Bigger Question: would stagecoach enter into North Cumbernauld or Kilsyth? who knows its a lot of Ifs and buts.

We are still no further forward if the losses at FiGno2 have been wiped out? Someone did say even with the cuts made its not made a big enough difference.

Depends who that someone was? Talk is cheap

 

[Colly405]

The Eastern half of CityBus 21/21A and First services 3 share the same route.

Western, surely?

In Plymouth, as far as I can see, there is a bus war still ongoing in two area's in particular.

If first are still making cuts, I fear the days are numbers for routes 3, 6 & 7 in Plymouth

And don't forget First's 5 is very similar to CityBus 23/24, and First's 1/1A are virtually duplicated by tCityBus 43A, etc.

And, of course, as announced this week, Stagecoach Gold is starting soon over the route of First's X80/X81...

 

[Rich McLean]

Western, surely?


And don't forget First's 5 is very similar to CityBus 23/24, and First's 1/1A are virtually duplicated by tCityBus 43A, etc.

And, of course, as announced this week, Stagecoach Gold is starting soon over the route of First's X80/X81...

Sorry, I did indeed mean western half.

Also, annouced today, a new "Premium Service" operating limited stop every 30 minutes has been introduced to run between Plymouth and Tavistock
http://www.plymouthbus.co.uk/about-us/news/plymouth-citybus-do-moor-as-company-expands-to-tavistock

First are being squeezed now. But how can it work with just 4 vehicles is rediculous

 

[Colly405]

Also, annouced today, a new "Premium Service" operating limited stop every 30 minutes has been introduced to run between Plymouth and Tavistock
http://www.plymouthbus.co.uk/about-us/news/plymouth-citybus-do-moor-as-company-expands-to-tavistock

First are being squeezed now. But how can it work with just 4 vehicles is rediculous

Is that the last main corridor that First's Plymouth depot had to itself?

 

[Rich McLean]

Is that the last main corridor that First's Plymouth depot had to itself?

Yes, apart from the 93, which runs to Dartmouth, which is first only from the Elburton Hotel Roudabout, but that is only hourly now

 

[Surreyman]

Yes, apart from the 93, which runs to Dartmouth, which is first only from the Elburton Hotel Roudabout, but that is only hourly now

They do still operate to Torpoint & Cremyl across the river via Torpoint ferry, they have a small sub depot in Torpoint.
The situation is really that First used to be the 'out of town operator', then seeing that this had no future, they started the UGO network in direct or indirect competion with Citybus.
I can't see that First have a long term future in Plymouth, rumours abound that they tried to sell it but when other operators looked at it they walked away.
I suspect that they may(secretly) be wanting to exit Plymouth altogether.

 

[overthewater]

http://publictransportexperience.blogspot.co.uk/

Today First Bus announces purchase of Finglands from EYMS subject to OFT ruling. Bang in th middle of Stagecoach Manchester territory.

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/greater_manchester/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=12311&conf=0

Firstgroup PLC agree to acquire Finglands bus operations in Manchester

Thursday 01 August 2013

Firstgroup PLC is pleased to announce that First Manchester Limited, a wholly owned indirect subsidiary of FirstGroup, has agreed to acquire the Manchester bus business from Finglands Coachways Limited for £50,000.

The acquisition of Finglands, which operates a number of commercial bus services and school contracts to the South and East of Manchester, is subject to Office of Fair Trading (OFT) clearance and, if approved, is expected to be completed during autumn this year.

The Finglands business saw unaudited revenues of £3.8m for the year ending December 2012.

The acquisition includes the lease of the existing depot in Wilmslow Road, Rusholme, existing service registrations and the transfer of approximately 100 staff. The fleet of 41 vehicles would be excluded from the sale although some may be used in the short-term to meet current service commitments. The sale excludes Finglands coach business.

The acquisition allows First Manchester to expand its successful bus operations in the Greater Manchester region and to grow the number of passengers on its buses.

First Manchester currently operates around 700 buses and employs 2000 staff. In the past 12 months First has lowered a number of its fares in the Greater Manchester region by around 30% and saw passenger volume growth of around 8% in the three months between April and June.

The Finglands operations would become part of First Manchester, which is led by Regional Managing Director Dave Alexander.

Dave Alexander, Regional Managing Director for First in the North of England, said: "This acquisition demonstrates our commitment to Greater Manchester and represents an excellent opportunity to further grow bus passenger volumes. It reflects our strategy of focusing on those areas that offer the greatest potential for growth and will allow us to improve bus networks for the communities we serve.

"We are looking forward, subject to OFT clearance, to welcoming our new colleagues to FirstGroup."

 

[overthewater]

Well that right in the middle of Stagecoach land, saying EYMS has now retreated more or less to its core operations, bar Worcestershire?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/greater_manchester/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=12311&conf=0

No-one predicted that one, did they?

 

[Rich McLean]

They do still operate to Torpoint & Cremyl across the river via Torpoint ferry, they have a small sub depot in Torpoint.
The situation is really that First used to be the 'out of town operator', then seeing that this had no future, they started the UGO network in direct or indirect competion with Citybus.
I can't see that First have a long term future in Plymouth, rumours abound that they tried to sell it but when other operators looked at it they walked away.
I suspect that they may(secretly) be wanting to exit Plymouth altogether.

It's only a matter of time, however, I expect them to keep plouging on for a while yet. First are good at planning their routes, with buses arriving a few minutes before CityBus services for the "catch what comes first brigade" and offering route specific Monthly tickets, which undercut CityBus Key products by quite a margin.

However, the state of First's fleet in Plymouth leaves a lot to be desiered, while Go-Ahead keep investing in the CityBus Fleet

First still have the Torpoint side of the operations, but I can't see CityBus challenge that just yet.

The 93 is a council tendered service as far as I am aware. If its commercial, then I would like to see CityBus introduce a Plymouth - Kingsbridge -(Dartmouth) in competition with first.

 

[Sandy Drew]

Well that right in the middle of Stagecoach land, saying EYMS has now retreated more or less to its core operations, bar Worcestershire?

Not quite that clear cut - Finglands most frequent route is in Arriva North West patch. They only really have a 15 min service through West Dids and every 20 mins to East Dids, in Stagecoach territory. Though the existing First cross-city 18 does terminate close to where the Finglands depot is.

 

[Polarbear]

The acquisition of Finglands has come as something of a bolt out of the blue! I have friends who work for First & even tey seem to have been suprised by this one?

The other point to note is the very low cost of aquisition - only £50000. Only the depot & routes are transferring to first - the buses will not be taken on other than in the short term.

I suspect a profitable move for First, though they may be tempted to slim down some of their less profitable operations in the Greater Manchester area in the future?

 

[radamfi]

Finglands used to be a big player in the South Manchester student market but they seem to have steadily cut their services over the years and with the demise of the other operators down Wilmslow Road, Stagecoach/Magic Bus is now very dominant. South Manchester will become virtually independent free with almost everything run by Stagecoach/First/Arriva.