First Group: General Discussion

[anthony263]

As regards Chester & the Wirral, I can see Stagecoach acquiring Rock Ferry. It would fit in well with the rest of their operation in Merseyside, plus giving them a share of the lucrative cross river pot.

I doubt Stagecoach would be interested in Chester, but Arriva aren't likely to get it due to competition concerns. That said, when Chester City was up for sale, Arriva registered services on all of the ex CC routes prior to First taking over. They subsequently de-registered all bar the Blacon & Saughall routes. They could well do that again to ward off any serious competition in the area?

You could also have some independent operators launch a network of services in the area. GHA for example have been doing well

 

[sonic2009]

As Worcester is not on the list.

Kidderminster : Possibly NXWM?
Redditch : Diamond, Stagecoach or Johnsons

And for Somerset I cannot see which depots are up for sale does this include Weston?.

 

[Schnellzug]

As Worcester is not on the list.

Kidderminster : Possibly NXWM?
Redditch : Diamond, Stagecoach or Johnsons

And for Somerset I cannot see which depots are up for sale does this include Weston?.

I doubt it'd be the former Badgerline parts; Taunton most likely and the former Southern National part, if any. Perhaps Yeovil, although that's part of Hampshire & Dosret now.

 

[317 forever]

As regards Chester & the Wirral, I can see Stagecoach acquiring Rock Ferry. It would fit in well with the rest of their operation in Merseyside, plus giving them a share of the lucrative cross river pot.

I doubt Stagecoach would be interested in Chester, but Arriva aren't likely to get it due to competition concerns. That said, when Chester City was up for sale, Arriva registered services on all of the ex CC routes prior to First taking over. They subsequently de-registered all bar the Blacon & Saughall routes. They could well do that again to ward off any serious competition in the area?

Unless Stagecoach buy Chester and Rock Ferry, I think Arriva would be allowed to buy out the First stakes in the QBPs. Then remaining operations could go to a 3rd party such as Avon Buses, GHA or even Rotala. First in a sense only entered the Wirral by accident, as PMT had bought out the Crosville Wirral operation prior to sell-out to Badgerline, and Arriva later buying out the rest of British Bus.

 

[tbtc]

Unless Stagecoach buy Chester and Rock Ferry, I think Arriva would be allowed to buy out the First stakes in the QBPs. Then remaining operations could go to a 3rd party such as Avon Buses, GHA or even Rotala. First in a sense only entered the Wirral by accident, as PMT had bought out the Crosville Wirral operation prior to sell-out to Badgerline, and Arriva later buying out the rest of British Bus.

Good point about the QBPs - you could argue that since they make "co-ordination" more important than "competition" then maybe First selling their interests off wouldn't lessen that "competition" (since there isn't really any now)

 

[Ivo]

And for Somerset I cannot see which depots are up for sale does this include Weston?.

Highly unlikely. Don't forget that they've only just revamped the X1 (the same X1 that bowled us :roll. I would strongly suspect that the 7 is a good money earner as well, and possibly - allowing for its frequency - the 112 too, especially during the summer.

The peripheral depots, i.e. Taunton and Bridgwater, seem the most likely. If these two were sold, I'm not sure any major player would be interested in BR (according to my data it has only ~20 vehicles and one worthwhile route, the 21) although TN does have some potential. You may have noticed that they have just improved the frequency on the 28 to Minehead for Butlins as well. On the other hand, anything north of BR would be unlikely.

One thing this may mean is that there would be a fair few pretty modern buses left around. Could First transfer some of those elsewhere in the S&A set-up? There are plenty of buses that are no more than seven years old down there!

 

[sonic2009]

I have a funny feeling that First will keep Taunton.

 

[overthewater]

Is it possible one of the depots on the list is Myth to put people of the trail of which depots might end up being sold?

 

[Ivo]

I have a funny feeling that First will keep Taunton.

Is it possible one of the depots on the list is Myth to put people of the trail of which depots might end up being sold?

I've wondered about that. Like Sonic says, I would be more than 50% certain that Taunton would be spared, and it would take a brave soul to buy only Bridgwater in ths area - First would pulverise them, even without running the local routes. And I doubt they would want to lose the 21; whilst they could in theory transfer it to Taunton, its main market seems to be north of Bridgwater.

It would also explain why they haven't specified whch part of Somerset they are supposedly considering.

EDIT: I might have to try something rather daring on Monday - seeking out staff I know and asking if they know what is happening

By this stage I probably know about 1-in-10 in Bath on an at least remote level, so it shouldn't be too hard.

 

[anthony263]

Is it possible one of the depots on the list is Myth to put people of the trail of which depots might end up being sold?

Like their south wales operations which have not been doing well for the last few years so I wont be surprised especially since lately First seem to be running things down with newer vehicles being transfered out and older step entrance vehicles returning such as the two darts which arrived recently and have upset the locals in Swansea.

I must admit I have not been one of Stagecoach's fans but they are doing very well in South wales especially after all the local projects such as launching higher frequency on routes in the south wales valleys.

If First do pull the plug on the south wales routes I suspect you will see Stagecoach, Arriva and the independent operators stepping up to the mark to take over.

Nothing to stop me setting up my own bus operations and launching a few routes with low floor buses being reasonbly cheap these days (of course I would have to persuade the bank manager to give me a loan or I win the lottery )

The service 100 Swansea - Cardiff Greyhound/Shuttle coach service is one of First cymru's most profitable routes and I am sure Stagecoach would like to get a bite of it

 

[Schnellzug]

The peripheral depots, i.e. Taunton and Bridgwater, seem the most likely. If these two were sold, I'm not sure any major player would be interested in BR (according to my data it has only ~20 vehicles and one worthwhile route, the 21) although TN does have some potential. You may have noticed that they have just improved the frequency on the 28 to Minehead for Butlins as well. On the other hand, anything north of BR would be unlikely.

I've wondered about that. Like Sonic says, I would be more than 50% certain that Taunton would be spared, and it would take a brave soul to buy only Bridgwater in ths area - First would pulverise them, even without running the local routes. And I doubt they would want to lose the 21; whilst they could in theory transfer it to Taunton, its main market seems to be north of Bridgwater.

It would also explain why they haven't specified whch part of Somerset they are supposedly considering. .

Well, Stagcoach are already there, aren't they, and there's plenty of independents (Webberbus, Bakers Dolphin, Quantock) in that area.

 

[tbtc]

Like their south wales operations which have not been doing well for the last few years so I wont be surprised especially since lately First seem to be running things down with newer vehicles being transfered out and older step entrance vehicles returning such as the two darts which arrived recently and have upset the locals in Swansea

The only reason I could think of for keeping Swansea would be the fact that the ftrs are there (which would be pretty non-standard with any different company).

 

[overthewater]

Its seems s First are having an extremely bad time with its Consultation about its review over the Aberdeen network. It seems there making major cuts and reducing the pvp, while trying to cram in more people into more buses.

Sounds just like olds times nice to see First are moving forward

 

[MCW]

what are FTRs?

anyways, so basically by the end of this year we will see first being reduced to a much smaller operation in the UK with some areas going from bad to worse before they pull out of those areas. Sounds fantastic doesn't it?

 

[IanXC]

The only reason I could think of for keeping Swansea would be the fact that the ftrs are there (which would be pretty non-standard with any different company).

Easily moved away though, FTRs have recently left York so I don't think First would hesitate to transfer them away before selling a depot.

what are FTRs?

This is an FTR http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F...sity_campus,_19004_(B7_FTR),_7_April_2007.jpg

 

[Schnellzug]

what are FTRs?

ftr is that pseudo-tram gimmick they introduced in York, and one or two other places subsequently. With those ugly artics that pretend to be trams.

 

[tbtc]

what are FTRs?

The purple bendi-buses that are supposed to look like a tram (but are kidding nobody).

They were First's cunning plan to get money from councils who wouldn't/couldn't pay for a real tram, but would find hundreds of thousands for infrastructure improvements/subsidies for these long vehicles.

A nice idea but it hasn't worked (a bit like the idea ten years earlier to introduce bendi buses to several other cities).

The fact that they have spent so much money on these vanity projects (£300,000 per ftr vehicle) and ignored their "bread and butter" routes is one of the reasons for their current woes in the UK bus market
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Easily moved away though, FTRs have recently left York so I don't think First would hesitate to transfer them away before selling a depot

True, although some have argued that the York change was political (due to council pressure to get rid of the ftr vehicles). They don't seem to be as "hated" in Swansea though (?)

I've argued that the ftrs leaving York is a sign that those operations may be up for sale before long though. The question is, if Swansea and York both give them up then how many other routes can First put them on in Leeds?

 

[IanXC]

I've argued that the ftrs leaving York is a sign that those operations may be up for sale before long though. The question is, if Swansea and York both give them up then how many other routes can First put them on in Leeds?

Indeed. I wonder if people could be persuaded that they are actually the NGT programme, which was approved in some parallel universe?

 

[MCW]

This is an FTR http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F...sity_campus,_19004_(B7_FTR),_7_April_2007.jpg

oh my god what an ugly looking !&£&$£ that is!!!

 

[overthewater]

I've argued that the ftrs leaving York is a sign that those operations may be up for sale before long though. The question is, if Swansea and York both give them up then how many other routes can First put them on in Leeds?

Aberdeen would be a good guess

 

[anthony263]

If First sell Swansea I can see Swansea council demanding that bendy buses be used by whoever takes over th area on service 4 Morriston Hospital - Morriston - Llandore - Rail Stn - City Centre - Mumbles Road - Singleton Hospital/University.

Anymore of those Mercedes-Benz Citaro's to go around?


As for the FTR's they have become a bit of a tourist attraction in Swansea especially to the foreign students

 

[Blindtraveler]

Aberdeen would be a good guess

on the 40 P and R via exhibition centre to City run maybe? Or replace/supliment the existing bendies on the 1/2?

 

[overthewater]

on the 40 P and R via exhibition centre to City run maybe? Or replace/supliment the existing bendies on the 1/2?

Anything if the dog dinner Aberdeen management are trying to do, That 40 is getting killed of and 1 & 2 extended and and cut to every 15mins all times

 

[Ivo]

The only reason I could think of for keeping Swansea would be the fact that the ftrs are there (which would be pretty non-standard with any different company).

Easily moved away though, FTRs have recently left York so I don't think First would hesitate to transfer them away before selling a depot.

As has been said so many times, and touched on by Anthony above, First might be happy to do it but I doubt the Council would...!

 

[Blindtraveler]

whats bus ridership down that way like and what sort of passenger? If increesingly like East Lothian they are just carrying pass holders around with a few intending clubbers/drinkers at weekends and some workers then I can see it going as first dont seam to want this kind of work any longer.
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Anything if the dog dinner Aberdeen management are trying to do, That 40 is getting killed of and 1 & 2 extended and and cut to every 15mins all times

whats going to Exhibition centre/P and R instead then come September? Or are they doing what they do best and abandening a route with potentially a lot of paying regular pax? If so, tipical.

 

[Ivo]

With regards to this Somerset rumour, I have received evidence today indicating that Bath - which makes up half of the Somerset fleet, and could in theory be passed off as the "other" ~160 vehicles not up for sale - will, as expected, be staying with First. I cannot release this information in public, but it lists some changes First are looking at making come September - all of which indicate an intention to continue in business...

Although I will be noting one minor thing in a certain other thread

whats bus ridership down that way like and what sort of passenger? If increesingly like East Lothian they are just carrying pass holders around with a few intending clubbers/drinkers at weekends and some workers then I can see it going as first dont seam to want this kind of work any longer.

Where exactly - Swansea? If so, I can't help

 

[Blindtraveler]

yeh should have said Swansea

 

[MCW]

Unless I missed something my mate just said that First Northampton have got First Glasgow ticket machines... which would coincide with the transfers of vehicles??

 

[Ivo]

Assuming Glasgow have Almex machines that doesn't mean anything. I expect half of the operation does by now (on that point, if they are having to cut back they could have held of introducing these machines a bit longer ). According to the site Northampton's were introduced last year!

 

[MCW]

Assuming Glasgow have Almex machines that doesn't mean anything. I expect half of the operation does by now (on that point, if they are having to cut back they could have held of introducing these machines a bit longer ). According to the site Northampton's were introduced last year!

unless tickets are being printed with the wrong destinations on them?