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First Group: General Discussion

ChathillMan

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Whenever I visit Chelmsford and Colchester I am always left with the feeling "you could do so much with this"

They operate a decent network of city services, places like Clacton and Basildon could have worse services compared to other parts of the UK, they have interesting Interurban services (100, X10, X30) which could act as a spine for the rest of the network. They actually have travelshops which are well supplied and you can buy tickets from.

To me, they have the basis of what could be a healthy outfit. First impressions are important and the presentation of the vehicles is awful. If they could do a Cornwall, Bristol or Norwich with the branding then I think it could be turned round.
 
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F Great Eastern

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Whenever I visit Chelmsford and Colchester I am always left with the feeling "you could do so much with this"

They operate a decent network of city services, places like Clacton and Basildon could have worse services compared to other parts of the UK, they have interesting Interurban services (100, X10, X30) which could act as a spine for the rest of the network. They actually have travelshops which are well supplied and you can buy tickets from.

That is my problem as well - the trouble is there is so much short term thinking, that it blights the overall operation. Sure on paper it might suit to buy new vehicles for a route on the cheap and be beneficial to the bottom line for a year or so. But if in the second year the customers desert you and your routes become less viable this means you need to make more cuts and it goes around in circles.

Of course First can't just ignore the short term, but I honestly feel that they're so focused on the short term that it is to the determent of their successful services which then are no longer successful in the future which creates an ever spiraling nature of cuts and declining of trading performance.
 

Robertj21a

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That is my problem as well - the trouble is there is so much short term thinking, that it blights the overall operation. Sure on paper it might suit to buy new vehicles for a route on the cheap and be beneficial to the bottom line for a year or so. But if in the second year the customers desert you and your routes become less viable this means you need to make more cuts and it goes around in circles.

Of course First can't just ignore the short term, but I honestly feel that they're so focused on the short term that it is to the determent of their successful services which then are no longer successful in the future which creates an ever spiraling nature of cuts and declining of trading performance.

Looking at the latest Accounts for First Bus subsidiaries in the UK, I'd guess there's going to be even more problems looming, over and above the much reduced new vehicle orders that applied to 2017.
 

darloscott

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Whenever I visit Chelmsford and Colchester I am always left with the feeling "you could do so much with this"

They operate a decent network of city services, places like Clacton and Basildon could have worse services compared to other parts of the UK, they have interesting Interurban services (100, X10, X30) which could act as a spine for the rest of the network. They actually have travelshops which are well supplied and you can buy tickets from.

To me, they have the basis of what could be a healthy outfit. First impressions are important and the presentation of the vehicles is awful. If they could do a Cornwall, Bristol or Norwich with the branding then I think it could be turned round.

That is exactly the problem with First operations in many corners of the UK. The problem is obviously they don't have the resources to do so. Cornwall is improving but the image of the fleet down that way is downright terrible, although new stock is on order for this summer which should help.

Looking at the X10 and X30, I was surprised when they replaced the coaches with E200s and from a quick look at the timetable it looks like it could be balanced fairly easily by running the X30 from Stansted 10 mins earlier to allow a half hourly frequency without impacting on the return journeys. I don't know whether there is any constraints on the current timetable to do with connections though.
 

F Great Eastern

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That is exactly the problem with First operations in many corners of the UK. The problem is obviously they don't have the resources to do so.

But the problem is it's a vicious circle isn't it. If you do have a good route that is popular with passengers and commercially does well and let it go by the wayside it ceases to become a good route anymore and stops giving good returns to the company and allows competitors to come in and take advantage of this situation.

It just feels more and more like managed decline.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Last year, I had no problem "Googling-up" these financial results, but currently I cannot find ANY of the new ones, nor any of the "old" ones !!

I'm interested in seeing the latest results for First Potteries, First Leicester, and First Midland Red - -
can a kind person please provide me with a link, or tell me the correct sequence of clicks ??

THANKS. (Sorry for being "thick" !)

Intriguing, Midland Red has gone from a £1.3m loss to a minimal profit. Potteries has gone from a £0.3m loss to a £0.7m profit. Meanwhile, Leicester has gone from a £2.5m profit to a £1.5m profit.
 

Volvodart

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I think it is generally the case that companies that were doing well last year have had similar results to Leicester, in terms of profit decline.
 

Robertj21a

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Intriguing, Midland Red has gone from a £1.3m loss to a minimal profit. Potteries has gone from a £0.3m loss to a £0.7m profit. Meanwhile, Leicester has gone from a £2.5m profit to a £1.5m profit.

I note that Leicester has had significant 'External charges' tacked on (to ensure that their figures don't look too good ?)
 

overthewater

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Something just doesn't add up with Midland bluebird. It's been cut back to the core and seen record increase in passengers on certain routes, sold off the borders, (you would think Border buses would take the pension pot for that area with it) and yet the losses keep on coming. Falkirk and Stirling can not be that bad surly?
 

Volvodart

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As I said before, it has a full year of Borders losses. How do you know how much the Borders losses were?
 

overthewater

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As I said before, it has a full year of Borders losses. How do you know how much the Borders losses were?

Logical answer to that, would be to look up the border buses accounts once there appear. (of course that's not for another 12 months) Also I didn't see anything about the sell off to WCM, does that mean that figure will be in the next set of accounts and would have off set these losses? plus why on earth would WCM want the border operations if the losses were that bad?
 

baza585

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I note that Leicester has had significant 'External charges' tacked on (to ensure that their figures don't look too good ?)

i suspect some reallocation of central costs between opcos, possibly to improve tax efficiency, but no doubt justified by a detailed analysis of management time spent!! To get to underlying performance will be difficult (though not impossible) if this is the case.

It also makes comparison with competitors even more difficult!
 

Volvodart

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Leicester has an external shareholder, so they are unlikely to have done anything untoward.
 
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Volvodart

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Logical answer to that, would be to look up the border buses accounts once there appear. (of course that's not for another 12 months) Also I didn't see anything about the sell off to WCM, does that mean that figure will be in the next set of accounts and would have off set these losses? plus why on earth would WCM want the border operations if the losses were that bad?
Borders Buses Limited will only have the trading since April 2017 so will not be relevant.
 

Robertj21a

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i suspect some reallocation of central costs between opcos, possibly to improve tax efficiency, but no doubt justified by a detailed analysis of management time spent!! To get to underlying performance will be difficult (though not impossible) if this is the case.

It also makes comparison with competitors even more difficult!

There seem to be far more 'odds' than usual this year - 'External charges', reallocation of overheads and Pension fund corrections. I'm sure it can be totally justified, and accurate, but it also manages to utterly confuse everybody else. That's why I stick to just looking at the Operating Profit, before any adjustments whatsoever.
 

Volvodart

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Where is the money for the company being sold?

Any losses incurred on the sale would have to have been provided for in these accounts. If material they would have needed to be shown separately. Borders Buses Limited financial year has just ended, so we will not know any more about what they acquired until their accounts are filed before the end of September 2018.
 
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F Great Eastern

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Be interesting if they have moved anything to the Irish Operating companies bearing in mind they made a record €8m profits on €25m revenue last year and most people were very very shocked at that high profits, almost treble their best ever results.
 

DragonEast

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6 Sep 2016
Messages
266
Whenever I visit Chelmsford and Colchester I am always left with the feeling "you could do so much with this"

They operate a decent network of city services, places like Clacton and Basildon could have worse services compared to other parts of the UK, they have interesting Interurban services (100, X10, X30) which could act as a spine for the rest of the network. They actually have travelshops which are well supplied and you can buy tickets from.

To me, they have the basis of what could be a healthy outfit. First impressions are important and the presentation of the vehicles is awful. If they could do a Cornwall, Bristol or Norwich with the branding then I think it could be turned round.
I suspect that in addition to the nationwide "First" issues, in Essex they have been distracted by two things:
1. Trying to run London-style frequencies. It sounds great, especially with increasing number of London exiles saying "Why can't we have more buses like London" and "we'd use them more if they were". We don't always do what we say, but equally importantly you need the resources - in terms of fleet, staff and, not least, management. You can't just transpose a model from one area to another.
2. A couple of years ago they had their collars felt by the Transport Commissioner, and presented a recovery plan. Not that hard to imagine what it was, I suspect - more buses on the network and "better" frequencies. It looks good on paper - but in practice it's much harder to deliver in the real world. I still think the activist Traffic Commissioners are living proof that the road to hell often lies through good intentions.
Both have meant running the network really hot - and mixed with the terrible congestion, reliability has plummeted as a consequence, as engineering, drivers and local management have been stretched beyond the limit. They have by a mix of history (adhering to historic routes for fear of political backlash) and their own actions (through the single answer of throwing everything they can lay their hands on out into the network), made the impact of the local congestion worse. If you have to have a single answer it has to be try not to magnify the impact of the congestion. You need to be creative as well as persistent.

If, and it's a big IF, First have the patience, and yes, can do a bit for the resources - there is perhaps some hope on the horizon. The MD (a former Essex man if I'm right) now in charge at Eastern Counties, has taken over (I believe, after the last of the ex First London exiles left). I believe, maybe more in hope than expectation, he understands the network (being Commercial Manager when the spinal 100, 70 and X30 routes were created), and there are signs appearing of it - the axing of the 72 and 41 for a start (though the 72 might be starting to perform so it depends on other changes too), and there is a cheap makeover for the 100 (those darned Volvo hybrids still give one of the most uncomfortable rides I've ever had, though) - which worked in Norwich, as well as tailoring the X services to meet the demand - something he may have done with the nearest equivalent the X1 at Eastern Counties. They claim to be in listening mode - to both passengers and the drivers. We'll see. Other people on here have told me what difference a good MD with practical experience might make - so I remain to be convinced!
And, yes, I do actually think they have the basis of a good network - if they can stop ruining it by their own actions.
 
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Cesarcollie

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Whilst the new MD did have some commercial responsibilities in Essex a few years ago, he is very much from Norfolk - having been at Eastern Counties for many many years in various finance and commercial roles. He's no fool though, so hopefully will make inroads to the problems given the resources. Incidentally, the 100 was created in circa 1995/6 - it replaced the 152/3/4 (I think - the memory may be failing me!!) - but each route ran hourly with minor route variations. So all were combined to a common route every 20 mins with new Darts and route branding as 'Premier 100'. Passenger growth started immediately....... The 70 and X30 are much more recent..
 

johnw

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22 May 2013
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First Essex problems seem to be using those silly people at Buzz marketing.
 

vicbury

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17 Mar 2012
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First Essex problems seem to be using those silly people at Buzz marketing.

At least they aren't using Best Impressions! A lot of their recent work for First makes their buses look as though are run by Go-Ahead - which does nothing for First's brand at all...
 

F Great Eastern

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FEC is in (see attached)

Pension fund impacting here again.
 

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DragonEast

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Do we expect some hefty fare rises coming through? After all train fares have increased a bit more than usual.

FEC have done some minor expansion of the Norwich Network and lost some competition in the coastal strip thanks to Go-Ahead (which might have benefited them more than First), and acquired the (unsubsidised) Ipswich P&R, which hopefully will make things better rather than worse!
 
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Baxenden Bank

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Do we expect some hefty fare rises coming through? After all train fares have increased a bit more than usual.

FEC have done some minor expansion of the Norwich Network, and acquired the (unsubsidised) Ipswich P&R which hopefully will make things better rather than worse!
First in the Potteries increased their fares in November 2017.
 

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