First Greater Glasgow

[Scott mac]

Does anyone know if the Yutongs are to enter service or will they just be used as driving training/familiarisation? I’ve not seen any around.

They haven't moved since they arrived which was over 2 weeks ago, so I can't see them being used.

 

[XAM2175]

People don't like buses not turning up either and we've had that to constantly endure because First haven't ever changed timetables to reflect the number of drivers they actually have.

Adjusting timetables to account for resource shortages is not radical change!

Can you not see how "make radical changes" as a statement is completely unhelpful anyway? It's the exact same concept as anarchism in politics - the belief that the current system doesn't work very well, so it should be completely smashed. Afterwards nothing works at all, but it's okay because you achieved change!

There are almost certainly many things that should be changed with how buses run in Glasgow, but the necessary changes should be planned so that they achieve concrete benefit. It might be that all of those changes wrapped up together do have a big impact on the whole, and implementing them would result in a radical change to the network - but it's equally possible that all of those changes could achieve improvement in ways that don't leave the network looking very different at all. Continually advocating for radical change totally denies that latter possibility.

As a bus user in Glasgow I'm one of those people you mention who are fed up with cancellations and lateness and diversions. Changes like "we truncated this route to improve reliability" and "we're diverting this route because of constantly bad traffic" and "we adjusted the timetable to smooth out the service pattern" are things that I will think have a chance of improving the situation. I would not, however, feel the same way about radical changes like "we thought you might all bored of the current network so we designed a new one by throwing some spaghetti at a map of Glasgow and then gave Best Impressions twenty grand to make pathetic folksy ads about how new and innovative and fresh and exciting it is", because all that says to me is that I'll just get to enjoy waiting for a late and overcrowded bus with a different route number at a different stop in the city.

 

[GusB]

Once again we're in the situation where people are posting suggestions for changes to the network when there was a thread specifically set up for it some time ago.

If you wish to discuss First Glasgow matters are they currently are, continue posting here.

If you wish to propose any changes to the network, post them here:

[Speculative] Ideas for First Glasgow service changes

Mod note: Posts #1 to #16 were originally in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-greater-glasgow.164437/ I have the following suggestions for changes to First Glasgow services: Service 1: Helensburgh - Parkhead via Balloch, Clydebank, Drumchapel, Crow road, replace service...

www.railforums.co.uk

Issues with driver shortages and cancellations are endemic across the whole country. By all means, feel free to post about it if you have been affected by a specific cancellation, but the matter is being brought up almost every other post (or so it seems) and it's becoming very wearing.

 

[lastbus]

They haven't moved since they arrived which was over 2 weeks ago, so I can't see them being used.

They are going out in service. Any day now.

 

[PaulMc7]

Adjusting timetables to account for resource shortages is not radical change!

Can you not see how "make radical changes" as a statement is completely unhelpful anyway? It's the exact same concept as anarchism in politics - the belief that the current system doesn't work very well, so it should be completely smashed. Afterwards nothing works at all, but it's okay because you achieved change!

There are almost certainly many things that should be changed with how buses run in Glasgow, but the necessary changes should be planned so that they achieve concrete benefit. It might be that all of those changes wrapped up together do have a big impact on the whole, and implementing them would result in a radical change to the network - but it's equally possible that all of those changes could achieve improvement in ways that don't leave the network looking very different at all. Continually advocating for radical change totally denies that latter possibility.

As a bus user in Glasgow I'm one of those people you mention who are fed up with cancellations and lateness and diversions. Changes like "we truncated this route to improve reliability" and "we're diverting this route because of constantly bad traffic" and "we adjusted the timetable to smooth out the service pattern" are things that I will think have a chance of improving the situation. I would not, however, feel the same way about radical changes like "we thought you might all bored of the current network so we designed a new one by throwing some spaghetti at a map of Glasgow and then gave Best Impressions twenty grand to make pathetic folksy ads about how new and innovative and fresh and exciting it is", because all that says to me is that I'll just get to enjoy waiting for a late and overcrowded bus with a different route number at a different stop in the city.

I didn't say I'm 100% in favour of radical change by the way just to make that abundantly clear and I also said I'd only expect it if the driver situation didn't change which I'd be surprised by given that First seem to do a decent job of getting new ones in. People despise change and I'm not always in favour especially with how Simplicity was done to begin with. It was a lot messier than it had to be and I lost pretty handy services as a result of it as did a lot of others.

Actually, the only thing I'd be looking in the current situation is to analyse hospital and educational links and how they could be made more effective. I've expanded on that in the speculative thread.

 

[Scott mac]

They are going out in service. Any day now.

Good stuff any idea which routes?

 

[PaulMc7]

When is the next round of funding for new buses? It's hard to see how anything other than Yutongs is the correct move in terms of single deckers at this point as they're just vastly superior to the E200EVs. A lot of double deckers are getting close to their end of life too though so I could definitely see the new version of the E400EV being something that is ordered in great numbers given the increase in potential range compared to the first version that we already have here.

I also noticed when looking on Alexander Dennis's website regarding the E400EV that they say it costs a third of the price to operate the E400EV compared to diesel buses. Is this actually the case? With regards to electricity, does a double decker cost more to operate than a single decker? I know with diesel, it's more to operate a double decker.

 

[route101]

When is the next round of funding for new buses? It's hard to see how anything other than Yutongs is the correct move in terms of single deckers at this point as they're just vastly superior to the E200EVs. A lot of double deckers are getting close to their end of life too though so I could definitely see the new version of the E400EV being something that is ordered in great numbers given the increase in potential range compared to the first version that we already have here.

I also noticed when looking on Alexander Dennis's website regarding the E400EV that they say it costs a third of the price to operate the E400EV compared to diesel buses. Is this actually the case? With regards to electricity, does a double decker cost more to operate than a single decker? I know with diesel, it's more to operate a double decker.

More E400s and E200s I guess, eventually the fleet may just be these two types.

 

[Fin447]

When is the next round of funding for new buses? It's hard to see how anything other than Yutongs is the correct move in terms of single deckers at this point as they're just vastly superior to the E200EVs. A lot of double deckers are getting close to their end of life too though so I could definitely see the new version of the E400EV being something that is ordered in great numbers given the increase in potential range compared to the first version that we already have here.

I also noticed when looking on Alexander Dennis's website regarding the E400EV that they say it costs a third of the price to operate the E400EV compared to diesel buses. Is this actually the case? With regards to electricity, does a double decker cost more to operate than a single decker? I know with diesel, it's more to operate a double decker.

My general understanding of EVs is that they cost more to purchase but cost less to run

 

[PaulMc7]

My general understanding of EVs is that they cost more to purchase but cost less to run

Thank you for the information. I'd imagine that over time when they become more common and more developed, the price to purchase them will eventually come down.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

When is the next round of funding for new buses? It's hard to see how anything other than Yutongs is the correct move in terms of single deckers at this point as they're just vastly superior to the E200EVs. A lot of double deckers are getting close to their end of life too though so I could definitely see the new version of the E400EV being something that is ordered in great numbers given the increase in potential range compared to the first version that we already have here.

I also noticed when looking on Alexander Dennis's website regarding the E400EV that they say it costs a third of the price to operate the E400EV compared to diesel buses. Is this actually the case? With regards to electricity, does a double decker cost more to operate than a single decker? I know with diesel, it's more to operate a double decker.

Like anything mechanical it will take more energy to move a greater weight.

More energy outputted requires more energy being inputted so there will be more storage capacity on a decker.

 

[PaulMc7]

Like anything mechanical it will take more energy to move a greater weight.

More energy outputted requires more energy being inputted so there will be more storage capacity on a decker.

Thanks for the response. I did think it would just work the same with electric as diesel but I thought I'd ask to be sure.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

The oldest B9TLs will be 16 years old this year. The last of the B7TLs were about 17 by the time they were withdrawn so I’d imagine we’ll hear about a new order in the not too distant future. I think the B9TLs will be replaced by one big order of the new generation E400EVs. Hopefully we’ll see some Yutongs in the next order too!

 

[PaulMc7]

The oldest B9TLs will be 16 years old this year. The last of the B7TLs were about 17 by the time they were withdrawn so I’d imagine we’ll hear about a new order in the not too distant future. I think the B9TLs will be replaced by one big order of the new generation E400EVs. Hopefully we’ll see some Yutongs in the next order too!

Following on from that it's showing how quickly time is flying by that the E400s are 12 years old this year too. That probably means that there is only 5 years left of them. It's good that Glasgow has finally been getting the investment that's been deserved after too long without it.

The quality of the fleet has certainly improved in recent times as a result of all of the new buses we've had since 2018. We've also got Scotstoun's E200EVs to come too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2023 ==


On another note, I had a feeling that this would crop up again given the great wall of petitions when it was axed. I see no chance of it coming back though.

Hamilton residents mount fresh campaign demanding return of vital bus service

The bus service was axed in July 2020 with many residents now clamouring to get the service back

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

The bus service was axed in July 2020 with many residents now clamouring to get the service back.

Residents across Hamilton have mounted a fresh campaign demanding the return of the X1 express bus service after it was axed by FirstBus in July 2020.

Campaigners including members of Earnock residents' association met at the Davington Drive bus stop to highlight the importance of the X1 to workers and students, with many arguing the bus withdrawal has disadvantaged older and disabled people.

More than 100 people gathered to demand that transport chiefs draw up plans for the reinstatement of the X1.

The rally was organised by MSP Monica Lennon, who praised the residents for their passion and determination, pledging to work with the community and cross-party politicians until the bus service is restored.

She said: “The X1 bus was always a vital route between Hamilton and Earnock that should never have been axed.

“Our communities need access to reliable bus services now, more than ever.

“Local residents are united in calling for the X1 to be reinstated. I pay tribute to their passion and determination and will work with them and politicians from all parties until we have an X1 service once again.”

Earnock resident Lorraine Garrow said: “My neighbours are feeling like prisoners within their own homes. I find it difficult watching older residents being unable to access healthcare or paying £15 for a return taxi journey to attend GP appointments in central Hamilton. One neighbour has spent £75 in a single month attending repeat appointments.”

Hamilton South Councillor Gavin Keatt said: “Many constituents rely on costly taxi journeys and are worried about the impact of the introduction of the Glasgow Low Emission Zone.

“The infrastructure is simply not there to achieve that. The reintroduction of the X1 will have a considerable positive impact throughout our communities, and I’m fully behind the campaign.”

Margaret and Jim Addie: “Not having the X1 service has been life-changing for residents.

"My neighbours and I were reliant on the bus to get to Hamilton town centre for shopping and GP appointments. We have lived in the estate for 42 years. We are lucky we have a car, but as we are both in our eighties, we need access to public transport.”

Earnock residents’ association secretary Sally Dallas said: “We have many elderly residents who are no longer able to drive or are fit enough to walk to the nearest bus stop route to Hamilton.

"It is not only about necessary medical appointments but social interactions.

"Covid was very isolating for all of us, but this isolation has been extended for the residents of Earnock when there is no access to local public transport for people with limited mobility.”

 

[route101]

Following on from that it's showing how quickly time is flying by that the E400s are 12 years old this year too. That probably means that there is only 5 years left of them. It's good that Glasgow has finally been getting the investment that's been deserved after too long without it.

The quality of the fleet has certainly improved in recent times as a result of all of the new buses we've had since 2018. We've also got Scotstoun's E200EVs to come too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2023 ==


On another note, I had a feeling that this would crop up again given the great wall of petitions when it was axed. I see no chance of it coming back though.

Hamilton residents mount fresh campaign demanding return of vital bus service

The bus service was axed in July 2020 with many residents now clamouring to get the service back

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

I thought there was not a slim chance of the X1 of that service coming back. There is some areas of Hamilton that are only served by an hourly Whitelaws service. I suppose the X74 can be used. Someone even even tried to use the National Express 587 to go from Hamilton to Glasgow early on Sunday morning.

 

[PaulMc7]

I thought there was not a slim chance of the X1 of that service coming back. There is some areas of Hamilton that are only served by an hourly Whitelaws service. I suppose the X74 can be used. Someone even even tried to use the National Express 587 to go from Hamilton to Glasgow early on Sunday morning.

First were going to cover the Hamilton section of the X1 when they axed it with a 225 but it ended up not happening at all. The problem with Hamilton is that it's very quick to get onto the M74 and as you start to work your way up towards the likes of High Earnock and Fairhill there are cars everywhere. The train is also a huge factor. The 255, 263 and 267 just take too long to be really viable compared to cars. The X1 just from the High Earnock terminus to Hamilton Town Centre was already a 25 minute journey too.

 

[route101]

First were going to cover the Hamilton section of the X1 when they axed it with a 225 but it ended up not happening at all. The problem with Hamilton is that it's very quick to get onto the M74 and as you start to work your way up towards the likes of High Earnock and Fairhill there are cars everywhere. The train is also a huge factor. The 255, 263 and 267 just take too long to be really viable compared to cars. The X1 just from the High Earnock terminus to Hamilton Town Centre was already a 25 minute journey too.

Yes the motorway is quick if there not any traffic. Train is around half the price off peak return compared to the Network day ticket and half the time!

 

[PaulMc7]

Yes the motorway is quick if there not any traffic. Train is around half the price off peak return compared to the Network day ticket and half the time!

I get why the network zone exists but I feel like it massively hinders First nowadays. Even the 201 from Hamilton into East Kilbride really isn't worth it for fare paying customers. I only do it because I have the network direct debit ticket but if I didn't then there would be no incentive to make network area journeys.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

The issue is that First wouldn’t have pulled the X1 had it been profitable. There’s a difference between the people who are campaigning to keep a service and the people who actually use the service.

 

[PaulMc7]

The issue is that First wouldn’t have pulled the X1 had it been profitable. There’s a difference between the people who are campaigning to keep a service and the people who actually use the service.

Exactly this unfortunately and it's even worse now given that when it was axed, more funding existed and costs were significantly less than now. The only way it comes back is a lot of funding so realistically it just won't.

People in Robroyston have been more vocal again too about bus services and that's after the 19A and X2 both being axed. The X2 was never going to work as it only had about 10 stops on the entire route but the 19A dropping use so quickly killed any chance Robroyston had.

The 8 can be quite busy at times but funding cuts have probably seen off any chance of a frequency increase for now and the SPT tendered 72 never seems to be busy.

 

[Jordan Adam]

First were going to cover the Hamilton section of the X1 when they axed it with a 225 but it ended up not happening at all. The problem with Hamilton is that it's very quick to get onto the M74 and as you start to work your way up towards the likes of High Earnock and Fairhill there are cars everywhere. The train is also a huge factor. The 255, 263 and 267 just take too long to be really viable compared to cars. The X1 just from the High Earnock terminus to Hamilton Town Centre was already a 25 minute journey too.

Evidently the 255, 263 and 267 are viable otherwise First wouldn't still be operating them...

 

[PaulMc7]

Evidently the 255, 263 and 267 are viable otherwise First wouldn't still be operating them...

Over the whole route? Yes, they absolutely are but for people travelling from end to end? The car wins every single time and then the train is definitely second to that. That's all I was meaning. On a good day when they're on time, the 255 towards Glasgow is 59 minutes end to end, the 263 is 59 minutes and the 267 is an hour and 6 minutes. The X1 was about 25 minutes from Hamilton Town Centre to Buchanan Bus Station and wasn't even viable as an alternative to the car.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Over the whole route? Yes, they absolutely are but for people travelling from end to end? The car wins every single time and then the train is definitely second to that. That's all I was meaning. On a good day when they're on time, the 255 towards Glasgow is 59 minutes end to end, the 263 is 59 minutes and the 267 is an hour and 6 minutes. The X1 was about 25 minutes from Hamilton Town Centre to Buchanan Bus Station and wasn't even viable as an alternative to the car.

Perhaps First aren't interesting in competing with end to end journey times if they know it's a market that isn't viable, their main priority if that a service is viable which the 255, 263 and 267 clearly are. I can think of many examples where a service doesn't at all compete when it comes to end to end journey times, but is viable thanks to people making shorter journeys between various points along the route.

 

[PaulMc7]

Perhaps First aren't interesting in competing with end to end journey times if they know it's a market that isn't viable, their main priority if that a service is viable which the 255, 263 and 267 clearly are. I can think of many examples where a service doesn't at all compete when it comes to end to end journey times, but is viable thanks to people making shorter journeys between various points along the route.

I agree with that. Without shorter journeys, most of the longer routes especially from further out in the network would be absolutely screwed even the most profitable ones. The best example of it I can think of is with "The One." Clydebank/Drumchapel to the City Centre especially in the evening brings in the most money by far. I've seen 1/1As make it all the way from Balloch to Clydebank with 2-3 people at most before.

It would actually be interesting to see what are the most common short journeys on the entire network. If I was to hazard a guess then Tollcross/Shettleston to Parkhead would be right up there and Scotstoun/Whiteinch to Partick would be up there too.

 

[jagardner1984]

Also some routes which seem targeted at Saltire card holders - i.e going from one minor bus stop by some flats to a parade of shops nearby - where frequency isn't particularly important and the end to end journey time is largely irrelevant - the 90 seems like a good examples of this.

I also wonder whether some end points are chosen with turning points and service recovery time in mind - rather than particular relevance as a stop/terminus in itself.

 

[92002]

I agree with that. Without shorter journeys, most of the longer routes especially from further out in the network would be absolutely screwed even the most profitable ones. The best example of it I can think of is with "The One." Clydebank/Drumchapel to the City Centre especially in the evening brings in the most money by far. I've seen 1/1As make it all the way from Balloch to Clydebank with 2-3 people at most before.

It would actually be interesting to see what are the most common short journeys on the entire network. If I was to hazard a guess then Tollcross/Shettleston to Parkhead would be right up there and Scotstoun/Whiteinch to Partick would be up there too.

One very obvious example is passengers from Faifley and Hardggate on the 2 from Faifley change to a 1 for a faster city service. When a Faifley option direct would probably be a good addition to the 1s variety. Dare I suggest a 1F option.

 

[PaulMc7]

One very obvious example is passengers from Faifley and Hardggate on the 2 from Faifley change to a 1 for a faster city service. When a Faifley option direct would probably be a good addition to the 1s variety. Dare I suggest a 1F option.

I do think had it not been for Covid and the rise in costs that we may have seen more varieties of 1s added in. The 1C and 1D certainly need double deckers again at the very least as their busy period stretches out significantly compared to most of the network. If resources allowed it, Scotstoun should realistically run both of them.

Scotstoun in general is a place where people swap over between the 1s, 2 and 3 in both directions constantly, myself included. The 3 changing driver where it does in both directions really doesn't help when there are multiple buses due at once. The bus stop westbound is especially bad as drivers just don't stop when another bus is at it or park well away from the pavement out on the road.

 

[92002]

I do think had it not been for Covid and the rise in costs that we may have seen more varieties of 1s added in. The 1C and 1D certainly need double deckers again at the very least as their busy period stretches out significantly compared to most of the network. If resources allowed it, Scotstoun should realistically run both of them.

Scotstoun in general is a place where people swap over between the 1s, 2 and 3 in both directions constantly, myself included. The 3 changing driver where it does in both directions really doesn't help when there are multiple buses due at once. The bus stop westbound is especially bad as drivers just don't stop when another bus is at it or park well away from the pavement out on the road.

There really is mo reason that the 3 changed over in Victoria Drive, a much quieter place.

Passengers from Faifley on the 2 tend to change in Clydebank with a better chance of getting a seat on a 1, although others from Yoker and Scotstoun tend to change in Scotstoun getting the benefit of a 1C which really can be quite busy at any time of day.

 

[PaulMc7]

There really is mo reason that the 3 changed over in Victoria Drive, a much quieter place.

Passengers from Faifley on the 2 tend to change in Clydebank with a better chance of getting a seat on a 1. Although others from Yoker and Scotstoun tend to change in Scotstoun getting the benefit of a 1C which really can be quite busy at any time of Dsy.

I get why they changed the 3 changeover point towards Govan but towards Drumchapel it made no sense. The bus stop downwards is too close to the filter lane to not cause issues.

Given that Dumbarton seem to have no issues with driver shortages, I do wonder if they could get enough in order to cover an every 15 minute service for the 1C and 1D and make it viable to run. I reckon off-peak that viability would be close though.

It's a shame that it's the 2 Glasgow depots that have suffered the most with driver shortages too. Dumbarton is rather out of the way unless it's something starting at Clydebank at furthest. Out of the services I've used recently, passenger numbers seem up a fair bit at times with a lot of Scotstoun's services other than the X4 and 16 outside of peak times. Some of Caledonia's are really hit and miss too. Some like the 7/7A, 57/57A, 61 and 75 have bounced back well but then others can be really quiet. One I was quite surprised by in particular is the 19. The 38s beyond the start of Cumbernauld Road can be quite quiet too.

 

[92002]

I get why they changed the 3 changeover point towards Govan but towards Drumchapel it made no sense. The bus stop downwards is too close to the filter lane to not cause issues.

Given that Dumbarton seem to have no issues with driver shortages, I do wonder if they could get enough in order to cover an every 15 minute service for the 1C and 1D and make it viable to run. I reckon off-peak that viability would be close though.

It's a shame that it's the 2 Glasgow depots that have suffered the most with driver shortages too. Dumbarton is rather out of the way unless it's something starting at Clydebank at furthest. Out of the services I've used recently, passenger numbers seem up a fair bit at times with a lot of Scotstoun's services other than the X4 and 16 outside of peak times. Some of Caledonia's are really hit and miss too. Some like the 7/7A, 57/57A, 61 and 75 have bounced back well but then others can be really quiet. One I was quite surprised by in particular is the 19. The 38s beyond the start of Cumbernauld Road can be quite quiet too.

Other than a further walk from the Depot there probably is no reason that the second stop in Victoria Drive coukd not be used for a changeover. Any stop in Dumbarton Road are not really suitable.