First Greater Glasgow

[jagardner1984]

However if you're looking for both bus and train, as well as ships and subway it's the SPT travelcard you need.

One of these days all the operators will all use a common system, but not anytime soon.

You’d think with all the talk of regulation the main operators and SPT and Scotrail would bang heads together a little more vigorously to sort out a “one Glasgow” fare structure.

However you present it - with an infinitely superior service in London having a PAYG at £1.75 and a daily cap across multiple operators of £5.25, or a monthly travel card (Zone 1-6) at £74 across pretty much the entire Greater London area multi modal, the comparative pricing of £2.85 for a First Single, no effective all day multi operator bus fare, but First alone being £5.40, and a 4 week zone card for a tiny portion of the city (2 zones) being £75 … it is hard to conclude how any of the above is defensible, and easy to understand why many commuters choose to sit for hours each week in queues on the M8 rather than battle the vagaries of the integration (or lack of) of Glasgow Public Transport.

It must also be said the state of the Glasgow roads, and prolonged major roadworks setting up diversionary routes for months if not years to come (for example the route the 61 now has to take to avoid the Woodside Viaduct works at Cowcaddens) makes the bus offer so much weaker and would I imagine increase driver frustration / churn and all the associated costs / disruption that brings.

Ultimately public transport can never match the convenience of door to door transport you own yourself (your legs, a bike, a car). For it to succeed it needs to excel on either speed, cost or frequency across the day in a 24 hour city.

In Glasgow, any one of these would be a start.

 

[PaulMc7]

You’d think with all the talk of regulation the main operators and SPT and Scotrail would bang heads together a little more vigorously to sort out a “one Glasgow” fare structure.

However you present it - with an infinitely superior service in London having a PAYG at £1.75 and a daily cap across multiple operators of £5.25, or a monthly travel card (Zone 1-6) at £74 across pretty much the entire Greater London area multi modal, the comparative pricing of £2.85 for a First Single, no effective all day multi operator bus fare, but First alone being £5.40, and a 4 week zone card for a tiny portion of the city (2 zones) being £75 … it is hard to conclude how any of the above is defensible, and easy to understand why many commuters choose to sit for hours each week in queues on the M8 rather than battle the vagaries of the integration (or lack of) of Glasgow Public Transport.

It must also be said the state of the Glasgow roads, and prolonged major roadworks setting up diversionary routes for months if not years to come (for example the route the 61 now has to take to avoid the Woodside Viaduct works at Cowcaddens) makes the bus offer so much weaker and would I imagine increase driver frustration / churn and all the associated costs / disruption that brings.

Ultimately public transport can never match the convenience of door to door transport you own yourself (your legs, a bike, a car). For it to succeed it needs to excel on either speed, cost or frequency across the day in a 24 hour city.

In Glasgow, any one of these would be a start.

I agree with you on needing a multi mode ticket option but comparing anywhere else in the UK to London is a non-starter. Look at the funding London has compared to here for a start.

Our bus prices are only what they are due to the rise in costs across the industry, a funding cut and less people using the bus. The other issue being driver shortages too doesn't help although it's better now in Glasgow compared to other parts of the country.

I do think First need to offer more flexibility in their services and give people more cross-city options in different directions but until there is more bus priority measures from the council I doubt it will happen. Our council have created a low emission zone that is more harsh on buses than cars although you wouldn't believe it going by car user reactions online every single time it's mentioned.

We need politicians that understand the industry far more than the ones we currently have and on top of that, the general public need to understand more. The amount of times I've seen people moan about buses being late yet ignore the thousands of cars passing them by as a reason for that is laughable at this point.

 

[jagardner1984]

I agree with you on needing a multi mode ticket option but comparing anywhere else in the UK to London is a non-starter. Look at the funding London has compared to here for a start.

Our bus prices are only what they are due to the rise in costs across the industry, a funding cut and less people using the bus. The other issue being driver shortages too doesn't help although it's better now in Glasgow compared to other parts of the country.

I do think First need to offer more flexibility in their services and give people more cross-city options in different directions but until there is more bus priority measures from the council I doubt it will happen. Our council have created a low emission zone that is more harsh on buses than cars although you wouldn't believe it going by car user reactions online every single time it's mentioned.

We need politicians that understand the industry far more than the ones we currently have and on top of that, the general public need to understand more. The amount of times I've seen people moan about buses being late yet ignore the thousands of cars passing them by as a reason for that is laughable at this point.

Indeed - but without getting into the politics - there is no reason why a taxpayer in Glasgow should expect a lower level of provision than a taxpayer in London - and so I do not accept the argument, even if I obviously follow your logic and you are absolutely right, of course.

It strikes me there is a real opportunity to play with the grid structure a little and create one bi directional bus only road north/south in the city centre (either Hope Street or Renfield Street seems most obvious) and one east/west, with priority signalling at junctions to boost the flow through the city would be a breakthrough moment. Doubtless would increase congestion for cars but would set the tone that the bus is THE way to travel to the city centre if you wanted to get somewhere quickly. Something has to change.

A free fare zone in the City Centre would obviously reduce dwell times at the City stops. I also wonder whether double door (entrance / exit seperated) would be useful to keep things moving at particular pinch points. From London - the seating loss does not seem to be particularly significant.

I have searched a little but wonder if somewhere there is feedback from the likes of First, McGills etc as to how they think it might work better.

Some of First’s approach does seem to have a whiff of “managed decline” about it - there seems to me to be a need to take a “if we build it, they will come” approach - but in fairness to them - they need a lot more infrastructure action from the council and other bodies to drive the services they need to be providing.

Personally I would support all ticketing to be done by SPT (or some more enlightened body) with the operators on contract - so a journey out on First and Back on McGill’s is perfectly legitimate choice. That would at least simplify the passenger facing side of things.

But beyond politicians of all shades saying the word “integration” - I see little evidence of any progress in this area.

 

[trei2k]

Sorry to go off topic, I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but Transport Scotland have a survey out at the moment on 'Smart and integrated ticketing'. @jagardner1984 you (and others) may be interested in giving your views:

About smart | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

Smart and integrated ticketing survey 2023​

We’re working hard to enhance smart and integrated ticketing in Scotland, making it easier for you to use sustainable transport and access the best tickets for your journey.
As part of this, we’re refreshing our 2018 Smart Delivery Strategy and we’d like to know what you think about the future of smart and integrated ticketing on public transport in Scotland. Since we launched this strategy, we’ve supported getting contactless payments on buses, helped to expand the concessionary travel schemes, and improved the integration of smartcards. So where should we focus next?

The survey should take about 10 minutes and will ask about your use and thoughts of public transport tickets and payments. It will close on Sunday 14 May 2023.

Unfortunately, SPT move at a glacial pace. I suspect any movement in this area will need to come from the Scottish government - which is a shame, a daily zonecard ticket would be ideal.

 

[PaulMc7]

Sorry to go off topic, I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but Transport Scotland have a survey out at the moment on 'Smart and integrated ticketing'. @jagardner1984 you (and others) may be interested in giving your views:

About smart | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

Unfortunately, SPT move at a glacial pace. I suspect any movement in this area will need to come from the Scottish government - which is a shame, a daily zonecard ticket would be ideal.

I seen this and I fully agree with you. The necessary changes probably won't come anytime soon sadly.

I'd argue even First's network zone has become a bit outdated and unnecessarily expensive too when you look at it. East Kilbride is a city zone area yet there are areas you can get to much quicker that require network tickets. Torrance is an area that really shouldn't be a network ticket one either given that 5 minutes around the corner is a city zone ticket.

Ideally, there should only be one zone. I'd imagine doing this would also bring in more passengers as you give people more options for a lesser price.

Advertising the direct debits more would definitely help too. The 4 week prices are more than that therefore more off-putting because people tend not to realise that the cheaper direct debit tickets exists.

The other problem with First's ticketing is that single prices seem to be down to driver perception than an actual fare structure. I've not used singles for ages but I've seen people get charged completely different prices for the exact same journeys.

Obviously, ticketing isn't First's only issue but I can't imagine that it helps new users of bus services to Glasgow.

 

[GusB]

Let's stick to the thread topic, please. If you wish to discuss anything else, do so in the appropriate thread or if there isn't one, feel free to start a new one. Thanks!

 

[adrock1976]

I seen this and I fully agree with you. The necessary changes probably won't come anytime soon sadly.

I'd argue even First's network zone has become a bit outdated and unnecessarily expensive too when you look at it. East Kilbride is a city zone area yet there are areas you can get to much quicker that require network tickets. Torrance is an area that really shouldn't be a network ticket one either given that 5 minutes around the corner is a city zone ticket.

Ideally, there should only be one zone. I'd imagine doing this would also bring in more passengers as you give people more options for a lesser price.

Advertising the direct debits more would definitely help too. The 4 week prices are more than that therefore more off-putting because people tend not to realise that the cheaper direct debit tickets exists.

The other problem with First's ticketing is that single prices seem to be down to driver perception than an actual fare structure. I've not used singles for ages but I've seen people get charged completely different prices for the exact same journeys.

Obviously, ticketing isn't First's only issue but I can't imagine that it helps new users of bus services to Glasgow.

Regarding the zones with First Glasgow, it seems the City Zone and the outer Network Zones date from how things were back in 1986 with the former Glasgow Corp/Strathclyde and the KCB areas being split into distinct zones.

It needs looking at even though if only to see if minor tweaks could be made.

Also, I am unsure if First Glasgow is still two separate companies on paper being as the passenger side of the buses near the front wheel arch simply has "First Glasgow Ltd" instead of including the suffix "(No 1)" or "(No 2)". Unsure how this would still work on paper with routes such as the 38E (Baillieston) and when the 62 used to run to Airdrie, as these took over part of the former KCB 213 and 262 respectively.

 

[PaulMc7]

Regarding the zones with First Glasgow, it seems the City Zone and the outer Network Zones date from how things were back in 1986 with the former Glasgow Corp/Strathclyde and the KCB areas being split into distinct zones.

It needs looking at even though if only to see if minor tweaks could be made.

Also, I am unsure if First Glasgow is still two separate companies on paper being as the passenger side of the buses near the front wheel arch simply has "First Glasgow Ltd" instead of including the suffix "(No 1)" or "(No 2)". Unsure how this would still work on paper with routes such as the 38E (Baillieston) and when the 62 used to run to Airdrie, as these took over part of the former KCB 213 and 262 respectively.

I know when registering services with VOSA it's still (No1) and (No2) but that's all I really know about.

The only change I can think of off of the top of my head that I remember is that at one point, the city zone boundary was moved up to Strathkelvin Retail Park from the beginning of Kirkintilloch Road.

 

[stevenedin]

I know when registering services with VOSA it's still (No1) and (No2) but that's all I really know about.

The only change I can think of off of the top of my head that I remember is that at one point, the city zone boundary was moved up to Strathkelvin Retail Park from the beginning of Kirkintilloch Road.

They would be better to split it into local authority areas (i.e. Glasgow City zone, North Lanarkshire zone, South Lanarkshire zone, Renfrewshire zone etc).

 

[PaulMc7]

They would be better to split it into local authority areas (i.e. Glasgow City zone, North Lanarkshire zone, South Lanarkshire zone, Renfrewshire zone etc).

This would cause a few issues with services that come in and out of different local authorities. The 60 does this as Clydebank is West Dunbartonshire Council then Drumchapel is Glasgow City Council then Canniesburn and Bearsden are East Dunbartonshire Council but then Maryhill to Easterhouse is all Glasgow again.

 

[stevenedin]

This would cause a few issues with services that come in and out of different local authorities. The 60 does this as Clydebank is West Dunbartonshire Council then Drumchapel is Glasgow City Council then Canniesburn and Bearsden are East Dunbartonshire Council but then Maryhill to Easterhouse is all Glasgow again.

Good point. I hadn’t thought of that. There are a lot of routes that do this kind of thing on the network. Possibly a larger city zone would be better but scrapping the short journey fare to make up for the loss.

 

[PaulMc7]

Good point. I hadn’t thought of that. There are a lot of routes that do this kind of thing on the network. Possibly a larger city zone would be better but scrapping the short journey fare to make up for the loss.

I think scrapping the short journey fare would make them lose more passengers to be honest. People tend to moan about that fare not covering enough of a distance as it is especially because the price depends on what driver you get rather than a consistent pricing scheme.

One zone with a £60 monthly direct debit ticket would probably work given that £60 is in between the new prices for both the city and network ticket. The gains in city zone pricing would make up for losses of network pricing although I'd say that there are definitely more city zone users than network ones going by the profits of First Glasgow (No1) and (No2) recently and obviously the areas that are covered so long term it should actually result in net gains off of the changes.

As much as I think the government messed up badly with the funding cuts, I don't see how price increases in a cost of living crisis are going to help First long term either especially as First don't do enough to entice people into using their services and don't make it easy for new users.

Another thing I noticed with the big app update that changed how it looks is that you now can't click on train stations to view times which won't help those wanting to use multiple ways of getting around. It's bad too given that it was actually easier to use First's app to check the trains than it now is for Scotrail's app.

The app update also didn't help with the fact it now pings back to your location after you click off of a stop whereas before you could click on and off of loads before it pinged back to your location. This obviously isn't ideal for people using multiple buses.

The obvious other issue is buses saying that they're live but clearly not running. People have complained about it since the beginning of the driver shortage but nothing has really been done about it. Lead time issues with the app are mentioned by the social media team but I take that with a pinch of salt given that they've lied about cancellations before and how they work. The tracking on some buses breaks far too easily too so if something isn't tracking it still could be running which doesn't help either.

Something to update the app for service destinations when a service is running short for any reason is also needed too. The 2 I used to get in the morning for my old job ran only to Scotstoun a lot and I never had any idea due to the fact the cancellation beyond Scotstoun hadn't been inputted by management.

 

[92002]

They would be better to split it into local authority areas (i.e. Glasgow City zone, North Lanarkshire zone, South Lanarkshire zone, Renfrewshire zone etc).

Which is basically what the zones were in the old Strathclyde PTE.

The now SPT is s different Authority made up of local councils

To start any integration of bus, rail and ships, subway and tram it would needx a common fare.

 

[Volvodart]

I see today First are threatening to withdraw evening services from Pollok area due to an increasing number of arson attacks.

https://twitter.com/FirstinGlasgow/status/1644317958582288386

*Service Information 1/3* Regrettably First Glasgow has sustained an increasing number of arson attacks on buses putting staff and passengers at risk in the Pollok area of the city.

This cannot continue and First Glasgow is seeking a joint response from community leaders to address the volume of criminal and anti-social behaviour taking place.

If these attacks continue First Glasgow will be left with no alternative but to withdraw services from the area in the evening, with services 3, 10, 57 and X8 all being impacted.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I see today First are threatening to withdraw evening services from Pollok area due to an increasing number of arson attacks

Rightfully so

 

[GusB]

When reporting service information and updates, please remember to include your source and quote the relevant information (in quote tags) from that source.

 

[PaulMc7]

I'm not really surprised that this is happening to be honest. Silverburn especially is just a big trouble fest and rightfully First need to put staff safety first.

Kids these days generally don't have any concept of responsibility for their actions whatsoever and until that changes then this will keep happening.

One thing I'm absolutely disgusted at with some of the responses to the situation is that some people are saying it's an excuse for First to reduce services. Driver safety is paramount here.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Does anyone know if the Yutongs are to enter service or will they just be used as driving training/familiarisation? I’ve not seen any around.

 

[PaulMc7]

Are there any services that are in a position to increase in frequency when driver resources allow for that? I'm still quite surprised that First haven't registered any changes to be quite honest given that everyone else has since the government funding cut was announced.

 

[duffers2324]

I would pretty much expect the network as it is now not to have too many changes going forward for at least the next few months, i think most of the companies will just be keeping it slow and steady just now and seem to be more settled in regards to being able to offer a more reliable service etc due to the shortages and funding cuts etc.

How we can only clamour for the days of the Overground network again!

 

[PaulMc7]

I would pretty much expect the network as it is now not to have too many changes going forward for at least the next few months, i think most of the companies will just be keeping it slow and steady just now and seem to be more settled in regards to being able to offer a more reliable service etc due to the shortages and funding cuts etc.

How we can only clamour for the days of the Overground network again!

I can see some services being cut but others not being miles off requiring increases at certain times. The 16 is one I could certainly see being reduced to hourly off peak. The last 3 times I've used it from Partick to Anniesland there hasn't been more than 3 people on it the entire time and that's including myself.

Other services like the 61 and 75 are beginning to become pretty busy every single time I've seen them and I'd think they could maybe manage an increase when resources allow it. One bus I'm quite impressed by now is the 4/4A. The loadings seem up massively in recent months. One benefit of the under 22 pass I guess.

The Low Emission Zone is now less than 2 months away so I guess First will wait for the impact of that to take effect and then we will know just how viable the current network is.

With everything going on at Silverburn with the recent trouble, I've noticed through the app and what I've seen that the 10, 57 and 57A all seem to be all single decker today. I'm not surprised with the arson happening though.

 

[92002]

I can see some services being cut but others not being miles off requiring increases at certain times. The 16 is one I could certainly see being reduced to hourly off peak. The last 3 times I've used it from Partick to Anniesland there hasn't been more than 3 people on it the entire time and that's including myself.

Other services like the 61 and 75 are beginning to become pretty busy every single time I've seen them and I'd think they could maybe manage an increase when resources allow it. One bus I'm quite impressed by now is the 4/4A. The loadings seem up massively in recent months. One benefit of the under 22 pass I guess.

The Low Emission Zone is now less than 2 months away so I guess First will wait for the impact of that to take effect and then we will know just how viable the current network is.

With everything going on at Silverburn with the recent trouble, I've noticed through the app and what I've seen that the 10, 57 and 57A all seem to be all single decker today. I'm not surprised with the arson happening though.

Which would seem to be a sensible solution to Silverburn in the off peak evening services. Continued use of single decks with no place to hide.

 

[PaulMc7]

Which would seem to be a sensible solution to Silverburn in the off peak evening services. Continued use of single decks with no place to hide.

I fully agree. Glasgow Live ran an article saying that buses in the area will have undercover police too. It's sad that it's come to this though.

Glasgow 'undercover' police to travel on First Bus services after arson attacks

Police Scotland will be ramping up their patrols on First Bus services after a spate of arson attacks and anti-social behaviour on buses travelling in the Pollok area.

www.glasgowlive.co.uk

Police Scotland will be ramping up their patrols on First Bus services after a spate of arson attacks and anti-social behaviour on buses travelling in the Pollok area.

Plain-clothed police officers will be drafted onto First Bus services in Glasgow after a rise in anti-social behaviour.

First Bus Glasgow has threatened to axe a range of evening services that run through the Pollok area due to a spate of arson attacks that have put passengers and drivers 'at risk'.

The bus operator said on Friday that they have "no choice" but to cancel services that travel through the south side of the city unless community leaders step in.

The at-risk services are the 3, 10, 57 and X8, which all run through Pollok.

The move comes after a series of wilful fire-raising incidents on buses in Pollok, with one bus left 'significantly damaged' after a group of youths started a blaze on the top deck before getting off.

Police Scotland confirmed that as a result of these crimes, they would be putting undercover cops on buses which go through that area of Glasgow.

Taking to Twitter, First Glasgow warned that it may have to cancel services through Pollok after dealing with an "increasing number of arson attacks."

It wrote: "Regrettably First Glasgow has sustained an increasing number of arson attacks on buses putting staff and passengers at risk in the Pollok area of the city.

"This cannot continue and First Glasgow is seeking a joint response from community leaders to address the volume of criminal and anti-social behaviour taking place.

"If these attacks continue First Glasgow will be left with no alternative but to withdraw services from the area in the evening, with services 3, 10, 57 and X8 all being impacted."

Police Scotland Greater Glasgow added: "Pollok Community Officers, @FirstinGlasgow and @mcgillswest have launched an initiative aimed to reassure the community and detect those responsible for anti-social behaviour on the bus network in the Silverburn area. Officers will be on the buses in uniform and plain clothes."

One commenter added: "This is incredible, effectively an area of Glasgow becoming "no-go" for public transport in the evenings. First Glasgow left in the situation where they have to shame government/agencies into action."

Another said: "Just pointing out that the MSP for the Pollock area of Glasgow is Humza Yousaf. What has he done to help this situation? @HumzaYousaf."

Yobs have also been causing issues at McDonald's Silverburn terrorising staff and customers.

We previously reported how teenagers have been subjecting workers to vile racist taunts and physical attacks prompting the restaurant to stop any under 16's entering unaccompanied by an adult after 6pm.

 

[route101]

I would pretty much expect the network as it is now not to have too many changes going forward for at least the next few months, i think most of the companies will just be keeping it slow and steady just now and seem to be more settled in regards to being able to offer a more reliable service etc due to the shortages and funding cuts etc.

How we can only clamour for the days of the Overground network again!

To be fair we haven't seen anything radical or new in Glasgow for some time. The secondary routes have been cut over the years.

 

[PaulMc7]

To be fair we haven't seen anything radical or new in Glasgow for some time. The secondary routes have been cut over the years.

Simplicity will be 10 years ago next month and we've not really had anything radical since. The opening of the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in 2015 is about the only big thing I can think of that influenced network changes and even at that, the changes weren't massive.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Simplicity style wave of changes to insert a lot of cuts if the driver situation doesn't change. However, I do think that First are doing a decent job of getting drivers in. Fridays to Sundays and holidays are still hit and miss but I have much more confidence in getting the bus I need on Mondays to Thursdays than I did a few months ago and just now, most of the training buses seem to always be out and about as well as other buses being used for vehicle familiarisation.

 

[XAM2175]

Again with the radical change! Why this fascination with change for change's sake?

 

[PaulMc7]

Again with the radical change! Why this fascination with change for change's sake?

As I explained, it wouldn't be for change's sake. Also, this is a public forum where people are allowed to suggest things.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Again with the radical change! Why this fascination with change for change's sake?

It’s tiring

 

[trei2k]

As I explained, it wouldn't be for change's sake. Also, this is a public forum where people are allowed to suggest things.

You do have to remember, the competition is the car. People don't like change and changes for things like basic public transport should be kept to a minimum. If it gets too confusing, you end up alienating a percentage of the ridership who may never come back.

 

[PaulMc7]

You do have to remember, the competition is the car. People don't like change and changes for things like basic public transport should be kept to a minimum. If it gets too confusing, you end up alienating a percentage of the ridership who may never come back.

People don't like buses not turning up either and we've had that to constantly endure because First haven't ever changed timetables to reflect the number of drivers they actually have. As I said too, the only way I'd expect bigger changes is if the driver shortage doesn't go away as it's a far easier way to make cuts without making everyone annoyed especially now as our buses are definitely getting busier at different times.

I don't expect big changes either. I merely said that it could have if things don't improve on the driver front.