First Greater Glasgow

[Gingerbus1991]

Yes I agree with you they are pretty reliable it was just at the beginning there was little issues. At no point did I slate the company it was the posters above who are not happy Lanarkshire got new buses even though Glasgow have had just as many if not more.

Suspension problems on other ADL models are not unheard of, I’ve heard many a 400 and some of stageys 200 MMCs with clunk front axles!

 

[Jordan Adam]

Suspension problems on other ADL models are not unheard of, I’ve heard many a 400 and some of stageys 200 MMCs with clunk front axles!

Yes however, the present issue is only involving Enviro300s.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

P.S, I said this before and I’d say it again, check the stains lefts behind on the lower deck roof where they foolishly put stickers(on B9’s), theyve not bothered there shirt here, the unrefurbed plastic on the chiller unit on the upper deck also has horrible, unclean looking stains from years ago.
My guess that when a passenger boards these initially they’ll think “Oh”, until there eyes wander...

ALL 300’s have abysmally filthy floors! these could've been replaced on The One and 2 sent for refurbishment to a high standard and cascaded to Lanarkshire whilst potentially being able to take a large portion of the Euro3 buses off the road for city centre ops.

Don’t get me wrong I understand the general enthusiasts like them alot but honestly, good riddance to the B10’s, wasnt a good look for the company in the eyes of the public, its just a pitty the caetano darts dont spontaneously combust as well, after all as ive said before, a bus should be run for the good of the public not a private business purse, alot of the operation cuts corner right down to every bolt(a dig at there engineers for dodgy suspension inspections to be clear).

I’ve also recently been reading that Xplore have retrofitted 2006 B7s for E6 emissions, if xplore can retofit these I see no reason why FiGs 2006 B7s couldn't be retrofitted and operated for years to come instead of battling with new bus orders, of course First are apparently reluctant to bid for funding in scotland for retrofit?

 

[Jordan Adam]

P.S, I said this before and I’d say it again, check the stains lefts behind on the lower deck roof where they foolishly put stickers(on B9’s), theyve not bothered there shirt here, the unrefurbed plastic on the chiller unit on the upper deck also has horrible, unclean looking stains from years ago.
My guess that when a passenger boards these initially they’ll think “Oh”, until there eyes wander...

ALL 300’s have abysmally filthy floors! these could've been replaced on The One and 2 sent for refurbishment to a high standard and cascaded to Lanarkshire whilst potentially being able to take a large portion of the Euro3 buses off the road for city centre ops.

Don’t get me wrong I understand the general enthusiasts like them alot but honestly, good riddance to the B10’s, wasnt a good look for the company in the eyes of the public, its just a pitty the caetano darts dont spontaneously combust as well, after all as ive said before, a bus should be run for the good of the public not a private business purse, alot of the operation cuts corner right down to every bolt(a dig at there engineers for dodgy suspension inspections to be clear).

I’ve also recently been reading that Xplore have retrofitted 2006 B7s for E6 emissions, if xplore can retofit these I see no reason why FiGs 2006 B7s couldn't be retrofitted and operated for years to come instead of battling with new bus orders, of course First are apparently reluctant to bid for funding in scotland for retrofit?

We've read this before so you won't need to type it again...

Those Xplore vehicles have just been fitted with Ad-Blue that's it, even then it's only 6 vehicles, in addition to that the interiors are the original and filthy, however seeing as they don't carry a First logo i wouldn't expect you to pick that up...

 

[Gingerbus1991]

We've read this before so you won't need to type it again...

Those Xplore vehicles have just been fitted with Ad-Blue that's it, even then it's only 6 vehicles, in addition to that the interiors are the original and filthy, however seeing as they don't carry a First logo i wouldn't expect you to pick that up...

Mcgills have yet only fitted a 7 vehicles so far, not sure if First Aberdeen has done any! Of course theyll be waiting to see how much can be scrooged from the tax payer in any case.

Here, here, I’m not all that thrilled of LB’s new 400s if its any consolation even though there getting good hype.
Yet overall that edinburgh lot does a real good job with its fleet, you dont have to be any sort of enthusiast to see that comparing to ANY other operator in Scotland.

Bringing me onto my next protocol, Mcgills, Stagecoach, First AND xplore all could care less about comprehensively refurbing there fleet on a much larger scale.

 

[winston270twm]

We've read this before so you won't need to type it again...

Those Xplore vehicles have just been fitted with Ad-Blue that's it, even then it's only 6 vehicles, in addition to that the interiors are the original and filthy, however seeing as they don't carry a First logo i wouldn't expect you to pick that up...

By just adding an Ad-Blue tank, that doesn't suddenly make them Euro 6 compliant! Also, the 06 plate Gemini's interiors are not original at all, they were all re-trimmed in latest grey/red dot NX moquette when repainted in to Xplore Dundee green prior to cascade to Scotland in late 2016.

Buses retrofitted to comply with Euro 6 have to have complete new Eminox (or similar) exhaust systems, the addition of an Ad-Blue tank is a requirement of those.

NXWM: Euro 6 Upgrade video:

P.S, I said this before and I’d say it again, check the stains lefts behind on the lower deck roof where they foolishly put stickers(on B9’s), theyve not bothered there shirt here, the unrefurbed plastic on the chiller unit on the upper deck also has horrible, unclean looking stains from years ago.
My guess that when a passenger boards these initially they’ll think “Oh”, until there eyes wander...

ALL 300’s have abysmally filthy floors! these could've been replaced on The One and 2 sent for refurbishment to a high standard and cascaded to Lanarkshire whilst potentially being able to take a large portion of the Euro3 buses off the road for city centre ops.

Don’t get me wrong I understand the general enthusiasts like them alot but honestly, good riddance to the B10’s, wasnt a good look for the company in the eyes of the public, its just a pitty the caetano darts dont spontaneously combust as well, after all as ive said before, a bus should be run for the good of the public not a private business purse, alot of the operation cuts corner right down to every bolt(a dig at there engineers for dodgy suspension inspections to be clear).

I’ve also recently been reading that Xplore have retrofitted 2006 B7s for E6 emissions, if xplore can retofit these I see no reason why FiGs 2006 B7s couldn't be retrofitted and operated for years to come instead of battling with new bus orders, of course First are apparently reluctant to bid for funding in scotland for retrofit?

The retrofits can be fitted to any bus & adapted accordingly to accommodate the Ad-Blue tanks. NXWM have upgraded a smaller quantity of 51 plate B7TL's & 52 plate Tridents to Euro 6. I understand that the exhausts can simply be retrofitted to another bus in the future upon withdrawal / as required. NXWM have 600 buses to upgrade this year as well as more new buses due in approx. 6 weeks. Everything has to Euro 6 by 2020. ​

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I wonder what AdBlue consumption will be like on the B7TL’s.

 

[winston270twm]

I wonder what AdBlue consumption will be like on the B7TL’s.

This is the problem, whilst what comes out of the exhaust is Euro 6, the buses are still ultimately old, heavy & I'm led to believe the retrofit actually makes their fuel consumption worse than before the retrofitting, plus it has also led to Volvo B7TL's needing premature replacement engines.

With all the low emission funding available, you're better off buying new Euro 6 buses with the added fuel saving advantages. Obviously that's not quite so easy for NXWM to replace 1600 buses or Glasgow to replace 400 buses in a short space of time.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

This is the problem, whilst what comes out of the exhaust is Euro 6, the buses are still ultimately old, heavy & I'm led to believe the retrofit actually makes their fuel consumption worse than before the retrofitting, plus it has also led to Volvo B7TL's needing premature replacement engines.

With all the low emission funding available, you're better off buying new Euro 6 buses with the added fuel saving advantages. Obviously that's not quite so easy for NXWM to replace 1600 buses or Glasgow to replace 400 buses in a short space of time.

Of course the cost of replacing an old engine yet retrofitting a new exhaust is still massively cheaper than buying brand new.

Of course a new vehicle may be better on fuel but infact according to TFL a B7TL around London does roughly 5.5mpg(or possibly worse with a retrofit), where a newer full hybrid(400h or b5lh) is achieving 7.5mpg roughly with a E6 diesel-only/electrically-assisted diesels managing somewhere between them, it would still take a very long time to recoupe the £200000 price tag of a new diesel bus even with improve fuel savings.

but on the touchy spot of FiG there going about it very oddly, at least Xplore are taking initiative regardless of the age of the buses.

 

[winston270twm]

Of course the cost of replacing an old engine yet retrofitting a new exhaust is still massively cheaper than buying brand new.

Of course a new vehicle may be better on fuel but infact according to TFL a B7TL around London does roughly 5.5mpg(or possibly worse with a retrofit), where a newer full hybrid(400h or b5lh) is achieving 7.5mpg roughly with a E6 diesel-only/electrically-assisted diesels managing somewhere between them, it would still take a very long time to recoupe the £200000 price tag of a new diesel bus even with improve fuel savings.

but on the touchy spot of FiG there going about it very oddly, at least Xplore are taking initiative regardless of the age of the buses.

Whilst it is cheaper when simply comparing upgrading existing fleet / against buying brand new Euro 6, when upgrading older buses 06 plate & older for example, you will also need to take in to account useful service life & whether you'll ever recoup the upgrade costs on an old bus, you may be able to overcome some of that by transferring on to another bus in the future, but that will largely depend on operator & low emission scheme. The additional strain the exhaust upgrade puts on the engines of older buses may also lead to more regular breakdowns / longer time VOR not revenue earning etc. It's not just simply about fuel savings comparisons, that just tends to be glossed over when announcements of retrofit upgrades are made in the press. They're not as environmentally friendly as they would have you believe.

First as a whole do everything differently to other operators, largely why the group is still in the mess it's in.

 

[GusB]

5.5 and 7.5mpg? Are these realistic figures for fuel consumption these days?

 

[Gingerbus1991]

5.5 and 7.5mpg? Are these realistic figures for fuel consumption these days?

On deckers anyways, route one magazine and transport for london have released road test papers on buses before as well as MPG figures acquired at Millbrooks testing ground in England.
Click the link, go down to appendix R.

Figures for there hybrids there at least from 2015, I do think they’re alittle worse off in actual service however.

https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/2556#a-121268

Newer single deckers often see upwards on 9mpg, some Wright bus products have even been touted to achieve 11/12mpg.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Which buses have green poles? The last ones I can remember were the VOs new to KCB which ran mainly out of Cumbernauld and were withdrawn around 10 years ago.

Also good to see routes receive new buses which haven't had them for many years like the 18 and 38.

If the 77 is getting new double decks from being single deck operated then that suggests it's been a success since it replaced the 747.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Of course its easy to ignore all the B7 Eclipses and Geminis when a couple of money maker routes get new buses, thats a classic Stagey/First manoeuvre, I get that, but of course all the Enviro 300’s on the 1/1A and 2’s arent getting a mention BUT the mind simply boggles why the 9/9A hasn't had new buses, wtf? Of course the 400’s that are found on the 6s and 4s haven't had any refurb yet there newer than the B9’s currently getting fitted out on the 61(to a rather lack of attention to detail I might add, panels still showing ingrained dirt, scuffed, rotten, green poles still on the 400’s, the list goes on).

There is far less logic coming from FiG atm than does from a gaggle of monkeys throwing feces!

Did you prefer when their previous management sat on their hands and allowed the age of the fleet to increase hence why they're now very quickly receiving orders for new buses?

 

[lastbus]

I know, only the last part of my reply was directly to you, the first half was a "general" observation so to speak.

No worries

 

[JumpinTrainz]

My original post may have come across as being slightly critical which wasn’t my intention. It’s hard to ignore how much investment is being put back into the company after many years of minimal investment. I’m pretty sure next year many more new buses will come for other routes, eventually leaving us with primarily ADL stock, Streetlites and B9TLs (possibly some B7RLEs). I’d definately say the B7RLEs could have been refurbished, they’re only a year off some of some of the B9TLs which have just been refurbished. They are good solid buses they just needed a little overhaul.

There’s not critising how far FiG has come in the last year or so in terms of their fleet and rebranding etc. I just hope this continues into and beyond LEZ.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Also, the 06 plate Gemini's interiors are not original at all, they were all re-trimmed in latest grey/red dot NX moquette when repainted in to Xplore Dundee green prior to cascade to Scotland in late 2016.

I was more referring to the floors, interior fitting etc, it was poor wording on my part so i apologise, however the point still to a degree stands.

5.5 and 7.5mpg? Are these realistic figures for fuel consumption these days?

I'd say so yes, Aberdeen's E300s have been known to achieve 18mpg, allegedly the Plaxton Interdecks when sitting at motorway speed can quite easily do 40mpg.

Newer single deckers often see upwards on 9mpg, some Wright bus products have even been touted to achieve 11/12mpg.

With Cummins Streetlites you're lucky if you get 7mpg most of the time, however i could see the shorter variations possibly managing 12 under the right conditions.

 

[Jordan Adam]

There is far less logic coming from FiG atm than does from a gaggle of monkeys throwing feces!

Funny you say that. The current First Glasgow Operations Director Duncan Cameron used to be First Aberdeen's managing director and i must say he done a bloody great job. He really did transform the company and the network. We saw 60 new buses under him, 51 buses fully refurbished. Great improvements in frequencies and the launch of the very successful Platinum Service. Not to mention it was him who managed to secure the transfer of Enviro500s in to the fleet.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

My original post may have come across as being slightly critical which wasn’t my intention. It’s hard to ignore how much investment is being put back into the company after many years of minimal investment. I’m pretty sure next year many more new buses will come for other routes, eventually leaving us with primarily ADL stock, Streetlites and B9TLs (possibly some B7RLEs). I’d definately say the B7RLEs could have been refurbished, they’re only a year off some of some of the B9TLs which have just been refurbished. They are good solid buses they just needed a little overhaul.

There’s not critising how far FiG has come in the last year or so in terms of their fleet and rebranding etc. I just hope this continues into and beyond LEZ.

After the LEZ is complete things will be just ok, but after that fleet is euro6 it will just go down hill of course buses wontbbe replaced quite as in mass is what they have been recently

 

[SarahDFIG]

Have been told the new deckers should start arriving by the end of next week not this week. 77s should be the first to arrive.

all the info I have at the moment.

 

[Jordan Adam]

After the LEZ is complete things will be just ok, but after that fleet is euro6 it will just go down hill of course buses wontbbe replaced quite as in mass is what they have been recently

If you're expecting First to keep buying 150+ buses per year then i'm afraid to tell you your exceptions are unrealistic. In theory they should get about 50 - 60 per year, however some years they get double that and some years they don't get close to that.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

If you're expecting First to keep buying 150+ buses per year then i'm afraid to tell you your exceptions are unrealistic. In theory they should get about 50 - 60 per year, however some years they get double that and some years they don't get close to that.

I’d imagine after such huge investment after LEZ things will probably go quiet for a bit. Glasgow should by that time have a fairly new fleet overall.

I did wonder to myself how this would work out in years to come. Most of the new stock will be of a similar age. In order to keep the fleet from maturing again, perhaps they’ll do what they did with some of the E300s - other subsderies will benefit from newer buses from Glasgow while in turn we may see new stock to replace them. Thus benefiting the First fleet overall. Rather than getting to 16 years down the line and the, then, old E400MMCs and E200MMCs will need replaced in another massive order all at the one time.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I’d imagine after such huge investment after LEZ things will probably go quiet for a bit. Glasgow should by that time have a fairly new fleet overall.

I did wonder to myself how this would work out in years to come. Most of the new stock will be of a similar age. In order to keep the fleet from maturing again, perhaps they’ll do what they did with some of the E300s - other subsderies will benefit from newer buses from Glasgow while in turn we may see new stock to replace them. Thus benefiting the First fleet overall. Rather than getting to 16 years down the line and the, then, old E400MMCs and E200MMCs will need replaced in another massive order all at the one time.

That is probably how things will pan out. For instance, get a new order in 2025 of 50 vehicles - replace 20 by then elderly B9TLs and displace 30 2019 e400mmc to other OpCos.

We have seen a bit of it with Leeds getting new vehicles in recent years, replacing some old stuff but also sending 6 yr old deckers to Swansea, Sheffield and Norwich.

 

[laststop@96]

I was more referring to the floors, interior fitting etc, it was poor wording on my part so i apologise, however the point still to a degree stands.



I'd say so yes, Aberdeen's E300s have been known to achieve 18mpg, allegedly the Plaxton Interdecks when sitting at motorway speed can quite easily do 40mpg.



With Cummins Streetlites you're lucky if you get 7mpg most of the time, however i could see the shorter variations possibly managing 12 under the right conditions.

plaxton interdeck 40mpg on motorway your lucky if a ford transit mini bus will do 40mpg on motorway.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

That is probably how things will pan out. For instance, get a new order in 2025 of 50 vehicles - replace 20 by then elderly B9TLs and displace 30 2019 e400mmc to other OpCos.

We have seen a bit of it with Leeds getting new vehicles in recent years, replacing some old stuff but also sending 6 yr old deckers to Swansea, Sheffield and Norwich.

Beyond the completion of the LEZ I deduce that it will make even more of a case for the company to keep vehicles for longer, particularly vehicles which are of midlife and having to have money invested into exhaust retrotfits such as the Enviro 300/400 and B9’s, there around 160 E300’s, about 40ish Enviro 400s and god only knows how many B9’s.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

plaxton interdeck 40mpg on motorway your lucky if a ford transit mini bus will do 40mpg on motorway.

That makes me laugh!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Beyond the completion of the LEZ I deduce that it will make even more of a case for the company to keep vehicles for longer, particularly vehicles which are of midlife and having to have money invested into exhaust retrotfits such as the Enviro 300/400 and B9’s, there around 160 E300’s, about 40ish Enviro 400s and god only knows how many B9’s.

Not really. The retrofit is a problem for capital investment not the asset life.

 

[laststop@96]

https://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/volvo-b11r-euro6-plaxton-panther-3/
plaxton panther 3 average mpg over 4500 miles 10.5 mpg

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Not really. The retrofit is a problem for capital investment not the asset life.

Capital investment will be needed to make roughly 550 euro5 buses in glasgow compliant, especially if FiG do not intend to bid for financial help through the abatement scheme, of course not all of them will need upgraded, or so I think anyways.

From what I have previously seen through printed magazines and online sources, it cost roughly £15000 per bus, to retrofit, multiply that by 550 buses and you get a some of approxemetly £8.5m of money needed, that £8.5m is a relatively small investment I. The grand scheme of things, but of course the stickler with that is that First don't get anything out of it but spending money, something there highly regarded to not do if there's no personaly gain from it.

With FiG previously stating that they will be “investing” £100m into buses, its never been clear whether that was solely for new stock or not.

 

[laststop@96]

Should first glasgow go head to head with stagecoach x19 as its very busy and just increased there timetable city centre to hospital or is there a agreement in place not to compete.