First Great Western "Service" ?

[PhilipF]

This morning the FGW train that starts soon after 0900 from Southampton, destined for Great Malvern, broke down at Westbury, and was cancelled. The following Portsmouth Cardiff train, was so utterly packed when it reached Bradford-on-Avon, that virtually all those who were waiting there, were not able to get on. We were forced to wait for the ex Weymouth train, before we could travel - but that was almost an hour later.
Puzzles me, surely at Westbury of all places, at least one spare train set could be ready to take over a service?
Absolutely no better at Bath, for the return: The 1535 Cardiff Portsmouth "service" was utterly packed again - these trains are very often full, and this has been the case for some years now - why on earth cannot FGW employ more carriages ? Three is far too few.
Problem with these grossly overloaded "services" is the delay in loading and unloading - certainly held up the train in Bath, likewise in BoA
Would Network Rail not be kicking up regarding the delays on their network?

 

[221129]

This morning the FGW train that starts soon after 0900 from Southampton, destined for Great Malvern, broke down at Westbury, and was cancelled. The following Portsmouth Cardiff train, was so utterly packed when it reached Bradford-on-Avon, that virtually all those who were waiting there, were not able to get on. We were forced to wait for the ex Weymouth train, before we could travel - but that was almost an hour later.
Puzzles me, surely at Westbury of all places, at least one spare train set could be ready to take over a service?
Absolutely no better at Bath, for the return: The 1535 Cardiff Portsmouth "service" was utterly packed again - these trains are very often full, and this has been the case for some years now - why on earth cannot FGW employ more carriages ? Three is far too few.
Problem with these grossly overloaded "services" is the delay in loading and unloading - certainly held up the train in Bath, likewise in BoA
Would Network Rail not be kicking up regarding the delays on their network?

And where do these extra carriages come from exactly?

 

[455driver]

If GWR have so many spare units why do they have a long term contract to hire an SWT 158 on a daily basis?
If you want a spare unit kept at Westbury 'just in case' what services are you going to cancel to provide that spare unit?
Do you honestly think they have anything spare and if so where is it/are they kept?

Exeter (where I am based) is one of 2 West maintenance depots and they don't have anything spare, in fact there is a booked ECS move from Bristol to Exeter so Exeter has enough units for the evening peak, every unit is either booked to be used as strengthening units or run the extra peak services, absolutely nothing is 'spare' all day, in fact yesterday one of the peak use units had some maintenance done in the off peak but it over-ran slightly so it had to attach an hour later than scheduled, the West fleet is run that tight!

 

[Johncleesefan]

Ahh It wasnt the Southampton to gt Malvern that terminated at Westbury that failed, it wasn't that train that broke down but a 153 on the Melksham single line. GT malvern train was needed for the recovery. 153 had 3 aws faults rumour has it, got no more info than that other than why did they cancel the gt Malvern to rescue it and not use the Warminster service instead which would of had much less impact

 

[daikilo]

If GWR have so many spare units why do they have a long term contract to hire an SWT 158 on a daily basis?
If you want a spare unit kept at Westbury 'just in case' what services are you going to cancel to provide that spare unit?
Do you honestly think they have anything spare and if so where is it/are they kept?

Exeter (where I am based) is one of 2 West maintenance depots and they don't have anything spare, in fact there is a booked ECS move from Bristol to Exeter so Exeter has enough units for the evening peak, every unit is either booked to be used as strengthening units or run the extra peak services, absolutely nothing is 'spare' all day, in fact yesterday one of the peak use units had some maintenance done in the off peak but it over-ran slightly so it had to attach an hour later than scheduled, the West fleet is run that tight!

I understand the realities of day-to-day ops, but some travellers seem to desire that spare trains be available to cover for faults, like e.g. the thunderbirds on VWC and VEC. It has a cost, which studies show need to be hidden. I doubt this route would be able to do so.

 

[PhilipF]

Last spring we took a trip to Koblenze in Germany, spent some of our five days there taking trips round the network there. One thing that very much struck me, was the number of unused trainsets in sidings on the system. Yes, and one poster to this thread mentioned SWT. This operator does seem to me to maintain a really adequate number of really up to date trains - vastly preferable to those of FGW.

Really am sorry that I have upset all you professionals though I am

 

[Parallel]

I used the 17:07 Bath Spa - Weymouth (ex-Great Malvern) service today. The platform at Bath was heaving and the train was announced as "full and standing" before arrival,probably due to 'Black Friday' shopping, and Bath Christmas market. That said, it is usually standing room only between Bristol and Westbury and is formed of a 3-car 158.

FGW/GWR are promising capacity improvements in the west once the Thames Valley Turbos arrive, but we'll wait and see what happens. They'll still have a finite number of units.

One thing that did catch my eye on RTT was this:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P02317/2015/11/27/advanced

Not sure what happened there, but the next service it forms (Warminster - Worcester Shrub Hill) was cancelled between Warminster and Bristol Temple Meads. RTT makes it look like the service terminated at Dilton Marsh, and if it is true, it must be very rare for a service to terminate at a request stop!

As a side note, I understand the frustration of delays caused by overcrowding (passenger loading, dwell times etc). Due to the door arrangement on the 158s, it's so much slower than say, a 150. The 17:07 mentioned today left Bristol on time, and was 9 minutes late arriving at Westbury, and seems to have lost time at every station. (It terminated at Weymouth 18 down)

 

[Clarence Yard]

Whose fault is it? The DfT. They have the say over what units are leased to franchises and all rolling stock contracts have to be approved by them. Indeed the ROSCOs usually like to see that the DfT are happy before they will sign.

In these days of 85 to 95% availability targets, if something goes pop during the day it often means a cancellation or a short form somewhere.

 

[Townsend Hook]

And whose fault is it that there aren't any spare units? A positive decision not to make the necessary investment doesn't absolve the 'railway industry' of blame for the outcome.

So the solution to this would be to buy up new units so that there is a surplus that can sit in sidings waiting for disruption. This means that there are more trains to stable, maintain and crew, with no additional fare revenue to fund them. This would inevitably lead to fare rises which, given that fares aren't exactly inexpensive as it is, would lead to public outcry. Additional outcry would be incurred when the passengers realise that they can't get a seat, but there are plenty of trains sitting idle in sidings.

I was going to make much the same point, I mean when a bus breaks down more often than not a spare one can be found to take its place

This is because the costs of maintaining an extra bus are minuscule compared to the costs of maintaining an extra train. You will note that airlines don't have rows of spare jets ready to go if something fails, nor do ferry companies have that many spare ships hanging around. The costs simply can't be justified if they are not out earning their keep.

 

[cjmillsnun]

There are no spare Diesel Multiple Units anywhere.

That's down to a government decision, as train companies run a service within limits agreed by the DfT. This even includes what stock they are allowed to lease.

FGW and most Train Operating Companies that run mainly DMUs (and HSTs) all have the same problems.

TOCs that use mainly electric stock on commuter routes will be in a better position.

 

[Dave1987]

To put in plain and simply the DFT does not want trains sat idle in siding as a "just in case", as stock sat in sidings not doing anything is costing money without being productive. During the peak on the entire railway network virtually every serviceable train is in use so there is no slack in the system.

 

[iantherev]

Not much help if your bus breaks down in Axminster and the nearest bus is at Weymouth.

 

[455driver]

FGW are out of 150s but I can have 20 2 coach 172s at £1.5 million a coach, got £60 million quid you don't mind sitting in sidings 'just in case', oh those 20 sets have to cover the whole Country so where exactly do you want to stable them so they would be available, oh and then there is the matter of drivers to sit with them so I need £24 an hour for each driver plus PNB facilities if they are away from depots, then there are extra Managers, uniforms, tax, national insurance, holidays etc to add on, how may hours a day do you want them to be available?
You lot can do the sums and then you can work out where the money is coming from!

 

[bramling]

FGW are out of 150s but I can have 20 2 coach 172s at £1.5 million a coach, got £60 million quid you don't mind sitting in sidings 'just in case', oh those 20 sets have to cover the whole Country so where exactly do you want to stable them so they would be available, oh and then there is the matter of drivers to sit with them so I need £24 an hour for each driver plus PNB facilities if they are away from depots, then there are extra Managers, uniforms, tax, national insurance, holidays etc to add on, how may hours a day do you want them to be available?
You lot can do the sums and then you can work out where the money is coming from!

The railway doesn't exactly help itself though. It's well known we are short of DMUs, yet we have DMUs ferrying people up and down between Marylebone and Birmingham in the name of 'competition', meanwhile 3x Pendolinos run up and down every hour between the two cities with spare seats.

There may be a shortage of stock now, but this won't wash if we start seeing EMUs go off-lease or Pacers to the scrapyard. As always it's the political structure that's rotten, and it doesn't help that franchisees don't seem to want to rock the boat for fear of upsetting the DFT.

As always, it's the staff on the ground left to pick up the pieces - having to work overcrowded trains full of disgruntled passengers, or doing the impossible maintaining stretched fleets.

 

[455driver]

The railway doesn't exactly help itself though. It's well known we are short of DMUs, yet we have DMUs ferrying people up and down between Marylebone and Birmingham in the name of 'competition', meanwhile 3x Pendolinos run up and down every hour between the two cities with spare seats.

There may be a shortage of stock now, but this won't wash if we start seeing EMUs go off-lease or Pacers to the scrapyard. As always it's the political structure that's rotten, and it doesn't help that franchisees don't seem to want to rock the boat for fear of upsetting the DFT.

As always, it's the staff on the ground left to pick up the pieces - having to work overcrowded trains full of disgruntled passengers, or doing the impossible maintaining stretched fleets.

So its the railways fault and its the Governments fault!
Glad we cleared that up! :roll:

Can you explain exactly how the railway (ie a franchisee) can change any of this?

 

[cjmillsnun]

The railway doesn't exactly help itself though. It's well known we are short of DMUs, yet we have DMUs ferrying people up and down between Marylebone and Birmingham in the name of 'competition', meanwhile 3x Pendolinos run up and down every hour between the two cities with spare seats.

And those DMUs are often full. People who live in Princes Risborough, Leamington Spa or Warwick would rather take a train to a more station than Leighton Buzzard or Coventry. Yes both trains end up in Birmingham and start from London, but that is where the similarities end.

 

[father_jack]

One thing that did catch my eye on RTT was this:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P02317/2015/11/27/advanced

Not sure what happened there, but the next service it forms (Warminster - Worcester Shrub Hill) was cancelled between Warminster and Bristol Temple Meads. RTT makes it look like the service terminated at Dilton Marsh, and if it is true, it must be very rare for a service to terminate at a request stop!

Track circuit failure trapped unit at Warminster. Avonmouth terminator formed restart at BTM.

 

[Envoy]

I wonder how many people have ditched rail travel in favour of the car due to incidents like the one that has caused this post? It also shows that most of the general public do not realise that the 'diesel' railways are at crises point due to the lack of rolling stock. They blame it on the company rather than understand that the root cause is a lack of investment over the last 18 years.

Now we have the delays with electrification pushing back the cascade of units even further. (For general members of the public reading this - Class 165/166 trains currently used in the Thames Valley will be switched to the Cardiff > Portsmouth (among others) route once new electric trains are in operation. Thus, the Cardiff > Portsmouth trains will be formed of 5 coaches).

I think that members of this forum should show rather less 'aggression' to members of the public who come on to this forum and are less knowledgeable about how such a situation exists.

 

[broadgage]

But will it ever get better ?

For decades, the unfortunate passengers have been promised "jam tomorrow", yet overcrowding is getting worse, and as many insiders have confirmed there is often no spare stock to cover for breakdowns.

For decades new stock has been seems to have been obtained only as replacements, and not as a supplement to old stock.

It is alleged that the new IEP trains for GWR services will help, but I have my doubts. I have a cynical suspicion that once the new trains are in use, that the old ones will suddenly become dangerous or non compliant, or beyond economic repair and be scrapped.

 

[bnm]

So its the railways fault and its the Governments fault!
Glad we cleared that up! :roll:

Can you explain exactly how the railway (ie a franchisee) can change any of this?

In the particular case of the service from Southampton to Gt Malvern, the lack of rolling stock was quite clearly the operator's fault. There was a maintenance issue leading to a unit being withdrawn from service.

There were several other short formations in the West DMU fleet yesterday. Due to maintenance issues. Had there not been 3 Class 153s out of action there may well have been spare rolling stock to arrange something better at Westbury.

 

[Johncleesefan]

But is there even any "spare" traction in the country that Fgw could buy? I think not

 

[PHILIPE]

In the particular case of the service from Southampton to Gt Malvern, the lack of rolling stock was quite clearly the operator's fault. There was a maintenance issue leading to a unit being withdrawn from service.

There were several other short formations in the West DMU fleet yesterday. Due to maintenance issues. Had there not been 3 Class 153s out of action there may well have been spare rolling stock to arrange something better at Westbury.

There still wouldn't have been a Spare at Westbury because there isn't one diagrammed to be there at the time. If there isn't one diagrammed there wouldn't have been anything there unless there were some out of course circumstances.

 

[al.currie93]

This morning the FGW train that starts soon after 0900 from Southampton, destined for Great Malvern, broke down at Westbury, and was cancelled. The following Portsmouth Cardiff train, was so utterly packed when it reached Bradford-on-Avon, that virtually all those who were waiting there, were not able to get on. We were forced to wait for the ex Weymouth train, before we could travel - but that was almost an hour later.
Puzzles me, surely at Westbury of all places, at least one spare train set could be ready to take over a service?
Absolutely no better at Bath, for the return: The 1535 Cardiff Portsmouth "service" was utterly packed again - these trains are very often full, and this has been the case for some years now - why on earth cannot FGW employ more carriages ? Three is far too few.
Problem with these grossly overloaded "services" is the delay in loading and unloading - certainly held up the train in Bath, likewise in BoA
Would Network Rail not be kicking up regarding the delays on their network?

This weekend has also been the first weekend of the Bath Christmas market, and trains here are always abnormally busy for this. It's not just that route and the small trains used on it that suffer; my ex girlfriend and my parents both experienced HSTs with standing room only from Reading to Bath, so I'm not surprised that your train was busy. I don't really blame GWR for this either; if it is wrong that trains are this overcrowded for this event, then GWR are only really doing what the government have allowed them to do, so I honestly can't blame them for that.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

This weekend has also been the first weekend of the Bath Christmas market, and trains here are always abnormally busy for this. It's not just that route and the small trains used on it that suffer; my ex girlfriend and my parents both experienced HSTs with standing room only from Reading to Bath, so I'm not surprised that your train was busy. I don't really blame GWR for this either; if it is wrong that trains are this overcrowded for this event, then GWR are only really doing what the government have allowed them to do, so I honestly can't blame them for that.

Let's not forget NWR have shut the tunnel weekend after weekend,

 

[fairysdad]

... It also shows that most of the general public do not realise that the 'diesel' railways are at crises point due to the lack of rolling stock. They blame it on the company rather than understand that the root cause is a lack of investment over the last 18 years...

Possibly, with those who do understand that the cause is the lack of investment, they probably suppose that this lack of investment is the companies' faults... after all, the railway is privatised and nothing to do with the government. That's why it bugs me when people (non-enthusiasts) talk about bringing back BR - I'm not against such an idea, but I doubt these people realise how much the government control this "private" railway network!

 

[HowardGWR]

The bitter irony of the OP's and others' experience is that GWR has claimed it put on 33 extra trains to deal with the rush.

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Bath...ns-Bath-laid/story-28248250-detail/story.html

Great Western Railway is to run 33 additional trains to and from Bath Spa this weekend (November 28-29), adding over 10,000 extra seats to support the Bath Christmas Market.

Additional services are to be provided between Bath and Swindon and Westbury, and between Bath and Bristol, but passengers are being warned that services will be in demand during peak arrival and departure times.

Christmas shoppers are being advised to allow plenty of time for their journey as a queuing system may be necessary to help passengers board trains in safety.

Bath Spa Station Manager Todd Graham said:"It's is great to see the Christmas Market return to Bath, with over 170 traditional wooden chalets lining the streets once more.
"While our friendly and approachable staff will be on hand to help keep people moving, I would urge customers to allow time for their journeys, as the station is likely to be very busy, especially in the early evening, and you may have to queue to board your return train."

A large number of services will also have extended dwell times at key locations and there will be slight alterations to normal timetabled services as a result.

Visitors from South Wales are reminded that due to Network Rail engineering work to Severn Tunnel, buses will replace trains between Bristol Parkway and Newport.

 

[Parallel]

I used this route on Saturday. I boarded 4-car 1588xx + 150238 working a Weymouth - Gloucester service. It was very overcrowded from Trowbridge, and rammed from Bradford On Avon. I don't know how they managed to get the passengers on from Avoncliff and Freshford, though they were front door only. Obviously FGW can only do so much about the overcrowding.

The PA was faulty and cut out every other word, though 150238's new automated PIS was announcing some stations (but not others). It was weird hearing it in a SWT 158 though!

It seems, to try and control passenger numbers, they've omitted Trowbridge and Bradford On Avon calls from the Portsmouth Harbour - Bristol Parkway services and the additional services from Westbury stopping there instead.

Whilst waiting for my next train at Bath, there were some serious numbers of passengers arriving by train. To FGW's credit, some services were strengthened to 4 or 5 carriages and extra services were running stations to Swindon, to Westbury, and another service that was semi-fast to Frome, however, 2-car 150s were still arriving completely wedged, and there seemed to be a flow of delays caused by congestion. It's quite a sight to watch if you have 15 or so minutes!

 

[bnm]

The bitter irony of the OP's and others' experience is that GWR has claimed it put on 33 extra trains to deal with the rush.

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Bath...ns-Bath-laid/story-28248250-detail/story.html

Ahh, GWR taking credit for additionals between Bath Spa and Bristol, when the reality is the extra trains were always going to be going via Bath Spa, due to engineering works between Wootton Bassett and Westerleigh Junctions.

 

[bb21]

I think the query by the OP has been answered.

It is a reasonable question by a newbie, but some posters who have been around for long enough really should know better. The reason for the national diesel stock shortage runs deeper than what a TOC can do, and we have been over this lots of times. A quick search on the forum will reveal numerous past threads.

Comparing a bus operation with a railway operation is neither here nor there.