First fined again by Transport Scotland

[Failed Unit]

I am still looking for a link I can post from a written source, but I heard on the radio this morning that First group have been fined a fairly large sum of money for failing to meet their franchise criteria in several areas.

These include:
Toilets on the trains,
Amount of litter on trains,
information etc.

I know first are judged by something called Squire? I have seen trains inspected, but I must admit that I have never seen excessive litter, poor toilets (expect maybe on the 314's and 320's ) on Scotrail so unless I am on the wrong parts of the network are Transport Scotland very harsh judges?

The only thing I do think Scotrail do very poorly is check tickets, I use them fairly frequently and I haven't been checked in the peak on the E&G line at all this year. Maybe they think they don't need to as most of the stations have barriers, or maybe it is just a curse of the 170's but if they think the trains are untidy they should try some of the operators south of the boarder!

Just found the links, the radio was not telling the whole story. ie the problem was more with the stations rather than the trains. I Wonder if Waverley and Glasgow Central are excluded

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Train-seats-a-sore-point.5511562.jp

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/new...fined_1m_for_state_of_stations_and_trains.php

 

[The_Stig]

I feel a little sorry for First ScotRail.

If the Scottish government got tough on the anti-social behaviour that is rife here and started to put proper morals into people then trains and stations would not be so messy. I mean come on, how could they be held accountable for graffiti?

I have to say that the trains I have been on have been quite clean. The main source of rubbish is newspapers, the Metro being an obvious one left at peoples backsides.

 

[jamesontheroad]

It's in today's Herald and Evening Times.

http://theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2523135.0.Scotrail_fined_1m_for_state_of_stations_and_trains.php

 

[me123]

I love The Herald, but when it comes to railways it's generally a rag. They ran a series on the failings of Scotland's railways, and it was full of half truths, poor arguments and really was just filler.

I believe that First Scotrail do an exemplary job on the whole. The issue of litter is pandemic in Scotland, so it's perhaps a bit unfair to pinpoint First Scotrail for this. I don't use the toilets, but the main "failing" is on the Helensburgh Central route, dominated by 320s! I imagine in 2010 when the direct link to Edinburgh opens and 334s take over, that more people will be happy with the toilet provision.

Of course, these are the areas that have been highlighted before for improvement. Of course, passenger satisfaction is at an all time high, as is punctuality, but the best thing to do is not to be complacent, but to target these other areas. The new MD said a similar thing, so I hope that they will take action and that it wasn't just rhetoric.

The on train staff are the people, of course, that make the country. On the whole, they give me a good impression. Someone mentioned a lack of ticket checks; as a regular Scotrail passenger I would disagree. On some lines with no ticket offices, like the Whifflet line, there is a problem, but the majority of them are much better. In comparison, travelling on the WCML or ECML, the ticket checks there are often non existent. I once went Euston to Glasgow with no show at all from the TM!

As for Metros, the staff are very good at tidying them out of the way, putting them in the overhead bins. I like this approach, which means that the papers are available throughout the day for those who want something to read, so I hope that this approach does not constitute litter.

That said, I have been on some North Clyde and Argyle trains that leave a lot to be desired in the cleanliness department, probably because they don't visit a main terminus station like Central or QS High Level. Perhaps the introduction of travelling cleaners would be a good idea? Shuttle them back and forward between, say, Balloch branch, Springburn branch, Airdrie-Drumgelloch... just small areas where they'd need only a single team shuttling back and forward would make a great deal of difference, especially when you consider that trains will soon go right through to Edinburgh!

 

[tbtc]

I feel a little sorry for First ScotRail

They did sign up for some very onerous conditions as part of the franchise - rightly or wrongly - they are letting the politicians call the shots on a lot of "little" things that wouldn't be noticed south of the border

 

[HH]

It was recognised at the time of the bid that it would be impossible to always meet the Squire targets. It was therefore factored into the bid price. Perhaps I shouldn't be telling y'all that.

 

[me123]

They did sign up for some very onerous conditions as part of the franchise - rightly or wrongly - they are letting the politicians call the shots on a lot of "little" things that wouldn't be noticed south of the border

You mention that the "little" things may not be noticed in England. I woud generally agree with this. I've mentioned that, whilst I'm a big fan of Scotrail, there are areas where they must improve. But I've also been on Northern rail a few a times, and I would say that they're further behind. It's not the case on every English TOC, I find TPE very good for example.

There are two ways of looking at this. On one hand, the targets show them what areas to improve on and ensure the best customer service and experience for the passengers. It could be considered as a benefit to the company to have this external standards procedure built into their contract. On the other hand, it removes a degree of autonomy from the franchisee (FirstGroup) and, on occasions when they do not meet the targets, they are fined.

I definitely think that the Scottish Government/Executive are going in the right general direction about this. Ensuring standards are there can only be of benefit to the customer base and, of course, in railways the customer base often has no (real) choice in the matter. I've seen the surveys take place on the train, and the inspectors are very thorough I can assure you. Perhaps the targets are not going to be met, and I don't really think that they should be set impossible targets, but I think the idea is a very good one on the whole.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Litter is a problem on EVERY train!!! It always amazes me when I see the amount of cr*p left on trains when they reach their destination... I mean, they wouldnt leave their houses like that would they?

 

[TrainBrain185]

Litter is a problem on EVERY train!!! It always amazes me when I see the amount of cr*p left on trains when they reach their destination... I mean, they wouldnt leave their houses like that would they?

Shamefully, I think a good many people would leave their houses like that. Part of todays society.
Whilst on night shift, checking the last trains on the depot is a nightmare to be seen. No kidding, pizza's stuck on roof panels, pies and cakes rammed into door open/close buttons, vomit, spit, urine and spillages of beers and wine on the floors, torn seats, graffitti, scratched windows. Druggies leave syringes trapped under the seats which in the worse case scenario, a blood test required to make sure someone has not caught Hepititis or worse after been jabbed by one.
Oh, also we have our own DIY train interior dismantlers as some are expert at detaching internal componants out of eyesight of guard or fellow passenger.
In essence, after all that, clearing away a pile of used Metro papers is a cake walk.
Those people who are quick to throw fines at operators should spend a solid month of nights, especially Fri and Sat nights and see what staff have to deal with getting a fleet cleaned and turned around for the morning departures..........

 

[me123]

A lot of the problem is that there often aren't enough bins on the trains, though. The ones there are are so small that they must become full quite quickly.

 

[HH]

The problem with the SQUIRE regime is that it's very costly. In my opinion the Scottish Government uses ScotRail to create jobs and boost the local economy.

The DfT, under instruction from HMG, has gone completely the other way. The object is to squeeze as much money out of the franchises as possible. They therefore shy away from anything that adds cost unless there is a proven benefit to the bottom line.

 

[me123]

It may be costly, but it seems to work. Based on your summary above, I would say that I prefer the action taken by the Scottish Government. It may be costly, but it improves the rail network and, as you say, creates local jobs, so it's more like a good investment.

 

[krus_aragon]

A lot of the problem is that there often aren't enough bins on the trains, though. The ones there are are so small that they must become full quite quickly.

I'd expand that to say that there aren't enough bins on the railway network: stations aren't all that better.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I love The Herald, but when it comes to railways it's generally a rag. They ran a series on the failings of Scotland's railways, and it was full of half truths, poor arguments and really was just filler.

They could get 99.9% reliability and 99.9% punctuality for the whole year and that rag would still moan, from reading that press when I was in Scotland you would think that the Scotrail service is an a right awful state and a state of crisis which couldn't be further from the truth.

The bad news is that this kind of press is making it to many other countries outside the UK and is giving the Scotrail franchise a bad name, for example I know many people who are in Edinburgh particuarly are no longer using the trains because of the bad press they believe, and when I was in Dublin with a few people who had gone to Scotland they avoided the trains as they read so much bad press.

They said the only way they would use them is if they were nationalised like Lothian Buses. Sadly people believe what they read, and go a lot on hearsay rather than their own experiences what they would find are very different, but people believe this press so they never try and another passenger is lost to the railways, and carries their ill-informed rant to someone else and it snowballs.

 

[SouthernCrescent]

I'm just back from a train journey yesterday (Scotrail and Virgin) and this was something I was thinking off myself. I think Scotrail under First are doing a great job overall, and much improved on the National Express days. The main problem as others have rightly pointed out is society - people are just so messy. I used to fly regularly to the USA (8-9 hour flights) and on arrival I would get up and have a quick check that I had not left anything at my seat, including rubbish. Other than putting a new amenity kit on my seat it was ready for the next person. What amazed me was the other seats, food mess and rubbish everywhere. People don't know how to behave right, and its no different on the trains.

Having said all that, once a train has been out a year or two from new or refurbishment it seems the best I could describe it is 'grubby'. Why are the seats dirty? Carpets on trains are even worse and probably it is a bad idea having them rather than an easy clean surface. Even the backs of seats are covered in grime and the toilets are pretty bad most of the time. The things I am seeing is long term dirt that just hasn't been bothered with. Mind you if the staff have to spend all their time removing pies from the roof maybe there is no time for a heavy clean!?

 

[Failed Unit]

The on train staff are the people, of course, that make the country. On the whole, they give me a good impression. Someone mentioned a lack of ticket checks; as a regular Scotrail passenger I would disagree. On some lines with no ticket offices, like the Whifflet line, there is a problem, but the majority of them are much better. In comparison, travelling on the WCML or ECML, the ticket checks there are often non existent. I once went Euston to Glasgow with no show at all from the TM!!

I can only judge on my experiences of the Edinburgh - Glasgow line which I do at least 1 return journey per week, so I would have hoped that I would have had my ticket checked at least once in 2009!

From my experience the problem is the fact the 170's don't have corridor connections. I always sit in the front set of 2x 3 car units (for a quicker escape at Waverley / Queen Street), the gaurd is always in the back. Unless the gaurd moves between sets they have no way of checking the whole train. I have seen people standing in the middle of the train at unbarried stations seeing which end the gaurd is in moving to the set the gaurd is not in.

The only way Scotrail will ever reduce fare dodging on the E&G line is have ticket checking staff in both sets. One of the reasons people don't date the flexi-pass is because they know the chances of it getting checked on this line are slim in the peak.

It could be a totally different story off peak or on other lines, but as I stated earlier in the peak ticket checking is non-existant. (Hopefully someone from First Scotrails management is reading this and will be out to prove me wrong. )

Maybe for another thread, but I have done Edinburgh - Preston in First class on the 06:52 Edinburgh - Birmingham service without getting my ticket checked (apart from at the shop to get my soggy roll and coffee). Which is poor, I also once did New Southgate - Market Rasen and didn't have the chance to even buy a ticket until Newark NorthGate with a faulty TVM at New Southgate and lack of ticket checks.

 

[The_Stig]

What the Scottish government want to be doing is fining the arseholes that put their feet on the seats, the amount of times I have seen GROWN men or women with their feet on the seats is quite frankly disgusting.

 

[harz99]

What the Scottish government want to be doing is fining the arseholes that put their feet on the seats, the amount of times I have seen GROWN men or women with their feet on the seats is quite frankly disgusting.

I'll echo that comment; I use the Glasgow/Ayr and Glasgow/Stranraer services and see feet on seats every time - the on train staff whether Guards or Revenue Protection just ignore it, though.

Off topic but something else that should be mentioned as the poor condition of the seat bases on Scotrail's 156 units.

Successive refurbs and repaints have lead to frequent new sets of covers in varying colours, but the sagging interiors that we actually sit on have never been replaced, as a consquence they are on their last legs and very uncomfortable for the hour+ journeys I make.

 

[90019]

Successive refurbs and repaints have lead to frequent new sets of covers in varying colours, but the sagging interiors that we actually sit on have never been replaced, as a consquence they are on their last legs and very uncomfortable for the hour+ journeys I make.

I wouldn't agree with that with the 156s on the WHL, which I found to be very comfortable, although I know these probably aren't the ones you mean, but I'll see what the other 156s are like in the next few days.

 

[Aictos]

What the Scottish government want to be doing is fining the arseholes that put their feet on the seats, the amount of times I have seen GROWN men or women with their feet on the seats is quite frankly disgusting.

I quite agree, I think they would get upset if I went round to their house and put my feet up on their sofas with my boots caked in mud wouldn't they?

 

[SouthernCrescent]

What the Scottish government want to be doing is fining the arseholes that put their feet on the seats, the amount of times I have seen GROWN men or women with their feet on the seats is quite frankly disgusting.

I couldn't agree more, how about that great motivator of the 1980's, Mr T as travelling encourager to the 'crazy fools' to get the feet of the seats ...might work

 

[156499]

I love The Herald, but when it comes to railways it's generally a rag. They ran a series on the failings of Scotland's railways, and it was full of half truths, poor arguments and really was just filler.

I believe that First Scotrail do an exemplary job on the whole. The issue of litter is pandemic in Scotland, so it's perhaps a bit unfair to pinpoint First Scotrail for this. I don't use the toilets, but the main "failing" is on the Helensburgh Central route, dominated by 320s! I imagine in 2010 when the direct link to Edinburgh opens and 334s take over, that more people will be happy with the toilet provision.

Of course, these are the areas that have been highlighted before for improvement. Of course, passenger satisfaction is at an all time high, as is punctuality, but the best thing to do is not to be complacent, but to target these other areas. The new MD said a similar thing, so I hope that they will take action and that it wasn't just rhetoric.

The on train staff are the people, of course, that make the country. On the whole, they give me a good impression. Someone mentioned a lack of ticket checks; as a regular Scotrail passenger I would disagree. On some lines with no ticket offices, like the Whifflet line, there is a problem, but the majority of them are much better. In comparison, travelling on the WCML or ECML, the ticket checks there are often non existent. I once went Euston to Glasgow with no show at all from the TM!

As for Metros, the staff are very good at tidying them out of the way, putting them in the overhead bins. I like this approach, which means that the papers are available throughout the day for those who want something to read, so I hope that this approach does not constitute litter.

That said, I have been on some North Clyde and Argyle trains that leave a lot to be desired in the cleanliness department, probably because they don't visit a main terminus station like Central or QS High Level. Perhaps the introduction of travelling cleaners would be a good idea? Shuttle them back and forward between, say, Balloch branch, Springburn branch, Airdrie-Drumgelloch... just small areas where they'd need only a single team shuttling back and forward would make a great deal of difference, especially when you consider that trains will soon go right through to Edinburgh!

It's not the 320s that are the problem they are reliable trains its the 334s! they show ghost faults and half the time they have a brake fault.

 

[First ScotRail]

ScotRail has launched a new campaign encouraging customers not to put their feet on the seats, this includes station posters, onboard posters and window stickers.

 

[krus_aragon]

ScotRail has launched a new campaign encouraging customers not to put their feet on the seats, this includes station posters, onboard posters and window stickers.

I should blooming well hope they don't put their feet on station posters and window stickers...

 

[me123]

ScotRail has launched a new campaign encouraging customers not to put their feet on the seats, this includes station posters, onboard posters and window stickers.

I like how it says (IIRC) "...feet off our seats". The subtle wording there emphasises the fact that it's Scotrail's property, not the travellers'. In the past, the signs merely said "feet of the seats".

I'll echo that comment; I use the Glasgow/Ayr and Glasgow/Stranraer services and see feet on seats every time - the on train staff whether Guards or Revenue Protection just ignore it, though.

They're aw feartie! A stern "Can I please use that seat" seems to work in most cases from myself as a passenger has worked on even some of the "roughest" looking Glaswegians. Enforcement of this, however, would improve the onboard environment and cleanliness as well.

It's not the 320s that are the problem they are reliable trains its the 334s! they show ghost faults and half the time they have a brake fault.

The "problem" with the 320s (I hate them, but I accept that they're valuable and reliable little workhouses) is that there is no toilet facility. Helensburgh is a good wee bit away from Glasgow, so having a toilet on board is highly desirable if you ask me. The 334s and occasional 318 all have toilet facilities on board, but the 320s have nothing and are less comfortable to boot (in my personal opinion).

Off topic but something else that should be mentioned as the poor condition of the seat bases on Scotrail's 156 units.

Successive refurbs and repaints have lead to frequent new sets of covers in varying colours, but the sagging interiors that we actually sit on have never been replaced, as a consquence they are on their last legs and very uncomfortable for the hour+ journeys I make.

I like the First Scotrail 156s a lot; they're much nicer units, well refurbished and quite comfortable in my opinion. There's an element of comfort in the ex-SPT 156s, but they need a bit of a refresh. The seat covers you've mentioned are the most obvious part. I'm hoping they'll get it done as part of the Scotrail relivery, but nothing inside the trains seems to have come from that thus far. Seeing as they can regularly run to Stranraer, I think an interior refresh would be good.

 

[Bittern]

Looks like they've stepped up with the tickets as well. It used to be you could buy your ticket on the train (in the case of the ones in Central Scotland, no idea about the north etc) at the same price you would in a booking office no matter the time of day.

However, a few days ago I went to the ticket office at a station and there was no one inside, so I ran over to the platform just before the train arrived and caught a 334 to Glasgow Central, and this was at about 2.20 pm. The conductor charged me for an anytime instead for an off-peak. At Central, I queried about this and was told that since I bypassed a ticket office, the conductor must now charge me for an anytime.

Not exactly convenient if you're arriving in the station at the same time your train is, or if there is no one in the ticket office with lack of a machine, like there was this time.

 

[me123]

That's the case across the UK. Indeed, some TOCs will get penalty fares involved if you do this.

One of the best things about Scotrail was always that you could buy on board. That said, it clearly lead to a lot of fare evasion only partly tackled by barriers. I hope, however, that they will allow people to buy on board where there's a machine but no office. The machines are notoriously awful for (older) people taking ages with them and getting confused.

If there's no one in the ticket office, you must be able to purchase a discounted ticket on board; if it happens again, you should only be paying for the Off Peak ticket.

 

[Failed Unit]

Looks like they've stepped up with the tickets as well. It used to be you could buy your ticket on the train (in the case of the ones in Central Scotland, no idea about the north etc) at the same price you would in a booking office no matter the time of day.

However, a few days ago I went to the ticket office at a station and there was no one inside, so I ran over to the platform just before the train arrived and caught a 334 to Glasgow Central, and this was at about 2.20 pm. The conductor charged me for an anytime instead for an off-peak. At Central, I queried about this and was told that since I bypassed a ticket office, the conductor must now charge me for an anytime.

Not exactly convenient if you're arriving in the station at the same time your train is, or if there is no one in the ticket office with lack of a machine, like there was this time.

I have heard of this going on as well, you must then put a claim in to get the difference refunded once they have checked with the ticket office and that the vending machine was working.

On the Edinburgh - Glasgow route the solution is simple on a six coach train sit in the front 3
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's the case across the UK. Indeed, some TOCs will get penalty fares involved if you do this.

One of the best things about Scotrail was always that you could buy on board. That said, it clearly lead to a lot of fare evasion only partly tackled by barriers.

If there's no one in the ticket office, you must be able to purchase a discounted ticket on board; if it happens again, you should only be paying for the Off Peak ticket.

I remember when the barriers were first introduced at Edinburgh Waverley and I was living at South Gyle at the time, the queues at the office to buy your ticket often took 15 minutes to get through. I have nothing against TOC's protecting revenue, but it does annoy me when the delay passengers who intended to buy tickets but had no chance because the station has no TVM and the gaurd could not sell.

I remember Central trains saying that barriers were introduced at Lincoln to cut down on fare evasion, but in most passengers never had a chance of buying the ticket as all stations leading to Lincoln are unstaffed. (the wouldn't invest in TVM's either). As the single was only 10p cheaper than the return people just bought the single to get them home. CT then wanted thier cake and eat it as once everyone had bought a ticket they were forced to admit they had overcrowding problems!

 

[The_Stig]

Looks like they've stepped up with the tickets as well. It used to be you could buy your ticket on the train (in the case of the ones in Central Scotland, no idea about the north etc) at the same price you would in a booking office no matter the time of day.

However, a few days ago I went to the ticket office at a station and there was no one inside, so I ran over to the platform just before the train arrived and caught a 334 to Glasgow Central, and this was at about 2.20 pm. The conductor charged me for an anytime instead for an off-peak. At Central, I queried about this and was told that since I bypassed a ticket office, the conductor must now charge me for an anytime.

Not exactly convenient if you're arriving in the station at the same time your train is, or if there is no one in the ticket office with lack of a machine, like there was this time.

What if you needed a Zonecard?

I have had this situation where the staff were on 'essential cleaning duties' but nobody was cleaning the platform, I stayed for a while to check.

I then went to Balloch later on and the guy at the ticket office said to get it on the train. I said I was wanting a Zonecard. I was told to get it in the morning.

Sure enough I ended up at Dumbarton again and alas the sign was up as usual.

I got on the train and upon arrival I had an arguement with the barrier worker. I was raging and wanted his gaffer.

I made my way to Dumbarton, then to Balloch and then back to Dumbarton on a different day and time! They need to be sensible, I wasn't gonna pay for multiple tickets to get a Zonecard because their staff were not doing their jobs.

 

[Bittern]

That's why I go to the local travel office for mines. That way, I'm not running the risk of not getting it.

Check this out, right. Once, I was waiting for a train at Hamilton West, and the ticket office woman came out of her office, climbed up the stairs and left the station. A few minutes later, she returned with a newspaper, and this was during the morning peak.