First East Coast (new Open Access Operator) to be standard class only?!

[DaveNewcastle]

I doubt that many of the current business travellers on air have a destination of Edinburgh City Centre to be honest.

Hmmm. The Parliament? The Courts? The City Council? The Government (Leith) ? The Universities? The Finance firms? The Law firms? The Conference venues? The Arts Council (Creative Scotland) ? The Banks? The design, IT and other creatives (Leith) ? The theatres ?
And most of the professionals in healthcare are likely to be heading for the southeast of the City.

But I will accept that, once the First Group's services begin, the majority of the pax I'm referring to will remain with the primary operator. The First Group's offering is more attractive to tourists, students and to those with very little income - people who currently look at the coach services or are not currently travelling due to the unaffordability of the current options. Possibly also retired folk with little budgets. Many of these travellers will also be looking at travel to/ from the city centre, the south or the east.

 

[matacaster]

I don't have a problem with First Class as long as it does not occupy an unreasonable proportion of the formation. Virgin West Coast seem to offer more First Class than is required except for the early morning peak. I would never dream of paying full First Class fare, but some of the Virgin East Coast cheap First Class deals are very good indeed. Get a Second Class cheap deal from Wakefield and its maybe £25, while First is around £44. But you get wine, orange juice, meal, coffee etc, extra space and at seat service for a song.

 

[edwin_m]

But I will accept that, once the First Group's services begin, the majority of the pax I'm referring to will remain with the primary operator. The First Group's offering is more attractive to tourists, students and to those with very little income - people who currently look at the coach services or are not currently travelling due to the unaffordability of the current options. Possibly also retired folk with little budgets. Many of these travellers will also be looking at travel to/ from the city centre, the south or the east.

However it was suggested the space per seat might be better than EC. If that made it good enough to use a decent laptop, then I'd be inclined to prefer this over VTEC, where it isn't unless you get a table. Leaving aside the issue that it's no use to me because I'd be starting or finishing my journey in the Midlands.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

It's supposed to be 5 new 125mph-capable EMUs fitted with a buffet car and one single class of accommodation.

I find the name East Coast Trains is surprisingly similar to the DOR East Coast operator, I'd have thought the name was to similar to be permitted.

At least I suppose the people of Morpeth abd Stevenage get am improved service out of it.

Like Great Western Railway is close to Great Western Railway, and London North Western is close to London North Western?

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I don't have a problem with First Class as long as it does not occupy an unreasonable proportion of the formation. Virgin West Coast seem to offer more First Class than is required except for the early morning peak. I would never dream of paying full First Class fare, but some of the Virgin East Coast cheap First Class deals are very good indeed. Get a Second Class cheap deal from Wakefield and its maybe £25, while First is around £44. But you get wine, orange juice, meal, coffee etc, extra space and at seat service for a song.

And access to the First Class Lounge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like Great Western Railway is close to Great Western Railway, and London North Western is close to London North Western?

I think the issue is confusion with a current TOC.

 

[hexagon789]

Like Great Western Railway is close to Great Western Railway, and London North Western is close to London North Western?

True, there is that. I just thought First would go for a completely different name somehow. What though, I've no idea.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I think the issue is confusion with a current TOC.

DOR isn't by any measure "Current" though is it?

 

[hexagon789]

DOR isn't by any measure "Current" though is it?

No it isn't (at least not right now) , but some people are, reasonably enough, confused by Virgin Trains against Virgin Trains East Coast.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Quite.

 

[geoffk]

Whatever happened to "not primarily abstractive"? These trains will be 100% abstractive and will take up paths which could be better used for improved local services or fast trains to new destinations such as Grimsby/Cleethorpes.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whatever happened to "not primarily abstractive"? These trains will be 100% abstractive and will take up paths which could be better used for improved local services or fast trains to new destinations such as Grimsby/Cleethorpes.

They will not be primarily abstractive if they encourage more people onto the trains through very low prices than poach VTEC's custom. This is part of the reason, I expect, that this new operator has decided on a very different business model to VTEC.

We'll have to see whether VTEC are very badly affected. It'll be interesting.

 

[takno]

Whatever happened to "not primarily abstractive"? These trains will be 100% abstractive and will take up paths which could be better used for improved local services or fast trains to new destinations such as Grimsby/Cleethorpes.

The thread has gone into quite a lot of detail on how the new service plans to attract new users onto the route. Partly this involves offering a cost-effective fast alternative to the main operator in order to better compete with the economy flight market. Partly it involves opening up new direct fast services like Morpeth to London and Scotland to Stevenage. Inherently the paths are likely to be off-peak arrivals in London just because otherwise they would be extremely early starts from Scotland. Either way, given that East Coast are also planning on running even faster trains to Edinburgh it's not clear how this second-class only service is abstractive.

I can't see why a direct Grimsby train would be a better use of the path - there's nothing to indicate much of a market to London off-peak on the route anyway, and the size of market that will make the journey but only if it is direct is probably even smaller. It would likely make more sense to improve local services in the Grimsby area and make the change of trains more appealing throughout the day.

 

[Failed Unit]

Extend the proposed 2 hourly Lincoln service to Grimsby if demand exists. No new path needed.

 

[Clip]

Whatever happened to "not primarily abstractive"? These trains will be 100% abstractive and will take up paths which could be better used for improved local services or fast trains to new destinations such as Grimsby/Cleethorpes.

Is there much demand for a grimsby/cleethorpes to London service as there is for and Edinburgh one?

I' suggest, given the lack of services currently provided, that there isn't

 

[adamedwards]

Stevenage is also a raid on Luton Airport and for some Stansted business. Bring it on I say as train fares on Virgin are too high.

 

[hooverboy]

I don't have a problem with First Class as long as it does not occupy an unreasonable proportion of the formation. Virgin West Coast seem to offer more First Class than is required except for the early morning peak. I would never dream of paying full First Class fare, but some of the Virgin East Coast cheap First Class deals are very good indeed. Get a Second Class cheap deal from Wakefield and its maybe £25, while First is around £44. But you get wine, orange juice, meal, coffee etc, extra space and at seat service for a song.

that frankly is a problem over the whole network,not just virgin

you look at MML for example(222's primarily)
a lot of the time it's a 5 car set-up with 2 carriages as first class,and the other three are full to the rafters.If you are really,really unlucky you'll get the 4 car rake.

in an ideal world these ought to be 6 car sets-or multiples thereof,most of the stations they they call at are designed for that sort of length..even market harborough which is in its present form capable of 7 car only

in truth the capacity is less than that as both driver ends double up as small guard van as well, so in practice it's a 4 1/2 car unit with nearly 50% first class.

HST set up is a bit better with 2 1/2 carriages of 8.

I think optimal ratio should be about 15% first,85% standard.

as for the on board service-in first if it's got complimentary wine etc and a decent meal on demand(like filet mignon or something cooked to order)-then I agree that is worth the extra,but that only holds valid for long distance runs......if it's a quick scoot from london to peterborough for instance which would be about an hour,then no.
complimentary sandwich from the trolley doesn't cut it either.

 

[Domh245]

that frankly is a problem over the whole network,not just virgin

you look at MML for example(222's primarily)
a lot of the time it's a 5 car set-up with 2 carriages as first class,and the other three are full to the rafters.If you are really,really unlucky you'll get the 4 car rake.

in an ideal world these ought to be 6 car sets-or multiples thereof,most of the stations they they call at are designed for that sort of length..even market harborough which is in its present form capable of 7 car only

in truth the capacity is less than that as both driver ends double up as small guard van as well, so in practice it's a 4 1/2 car unit with nearly 50% first class.

HST set up is a bit better with 2 1/2 carriages of 8.

I think optimal ratio should be about 15% first,85% standard.

The 5 car sets have got 1 Driving vehicle that is wholly first class, and one intermediate vehicle that is composite, so your assertion that it is nearly 50% first class is completely incorrect. Going by the seating plans a 5 car 222 has 190 standard seats (excl. tip up) and 50 first class seats, meaning it's a shade over 20% first class. That said, I will agree that the trains themselves are too short on the whole

 

[hooverboy]

Stevenage is also a raid on Luton Airport and for some Stansted business. Bring it on I say as train fares on Virgin are too high.

if only they would put in an orbital railway!
luton airport to stansted airport is about 30 miles by road and takes nearly 2 hours!..and takes about as long by train too,as you have to go into london st p,and then tube it to liverpool street,then stansted express.

luton to stevenage is about 8 miles as the crow flies and takes an hour on the national express(which is usually packed and very unreliable).

east west rail will be nice when completed,but it doesn't really connect the main transport hubs(hence my bitching about bletchley rather than MKC being a connection point on previous posts),be they bus,air or long distance rail.

 

[hooverboy]

The 5 car sets have got 1 Driving vehicle that is wholly first class, and one intermediate vehicle that is composite, so your assertion that it is nearly 50% first class is completely incorrect. Going by the seating plans a 5 car 222 has 190 standard seats (excl. tip up) and 50 first class seats, meaning it's a shade over 20% first class. That said, I will agree that the trains themselves are too short on the whole

I'm fairly certain coach B is also fully first class,not composite.

 

[Bald Rick]

if only they would put in an orbital railway!
luton airport to stansted airport is about 30 miles by road and takes nearly 2 hours!..and takes about as long by train too,as you have to go into london st p,and then tube it to liverpool street,then stansted express.

I have cycled it in under 2hrs. And driven a similar trip if slightly longer distance from near Luton to Stansted short stay in 45 minutes in the morning peak. It is not 2hrs or anything like it.

Besides, with the exception of a very few people, no one needs to travel from Luton Airport to Stansted airport, and they are mostly airline employees (some of whom will fly )

Overall, I agree that First are after the air market to Edinburgh and the eastern half of the central belt. The London - Glasgow / Edinburgh air market is changing, what with Ryanair pulling out of the former market.

 

[hooverboy]

Is there much demand for a grimsby/cleethorpes to London service as there is for and Edinburgh one?

I' suggest, given the lack of services currently provided, that there isn't

I think what is called for,on pretty much all networks,is a no frills,standard class only semi-fast with no trimmings and proper pricing that people can book and get reasonably priced at 48-72 hours notice.
at the moment you either pay through the nose on the day,or get something obscenely cheap booked 3 months prior with restrictions on time of travel and TOC...there is nothing in between and that's a niche that can and should be filled

 

[hooverboy]

I have cycled it in under 2hrs.

that's precisely my point.mean speed of that particular journey is about 15mph ,which is pathetic.

as to your driving it in 45 mins,OK.
I was referring to public transport....you go the scenic route via luton airport,reverse a bit, go down the M1 to hemel, round the A414, to hatfield, then M11 and so on..so it really does take nearly 2 hours.

 

[Domh245]

I'm fairly certain coach B is also fully first class,not composite.

Coach B is standard. Have a look at the seating plans, a 5 car has 1.5 carriages of first (effectively 1 because half of one vehicle is taken up by the galley and driving cab)

 

[hooverboy]

I guess I must be an exception then.I go away quite regularly on business and have to time my flights in and out of stansted carefully,as there will be no buses going beds/bucks way from stansted after about 11pm and trains likewise in london after about half twelve....if you have a delay on the flight realistically the last stansted express you can catch with any hope of a tube/train connection in london is about 11.45pm.will arrive in liverpool street around 12.30am and then it's a bit pick "n" mix with tubes.
outbound from st-p and there's trains up until around 1.30am,AFTER THAT YOU HAVE A LONG WAIT!

 

[Bald Rick]

outbound from st-p and there's trains up until around 1.30am,AFTER THAT YOU HAVE A LONG WAIT!

About half an hour! St Pancras to Luton is one of the best all night rail services in the country.

 

[londiscape]

Is there much demand for a grimsby/cleethorpes to London service as there is for and Edinburgh one?

I' suggest, given the lack of services currently provided, that there isn't

Probably not if one compares the two directly, but if you run it via Scunthorpe (pop. 65,200) and Grimsby (pop. 88,300) and Cleethorpes (pop. 40,000) that's a combined population of nearly 200k - worth looking at for a direct London service.

Personally I would have loved a direct London to Scunthorpe service last year as I would have made weekly use of it (not now though).

 

[Failed Unit]

Probably not if one compares the two directly, but if you run it via Scunthorpe (pop. 65,200) and Grimsby (pop. 88,300) and Cleethorpes (pop. 40,000) that's a combined population of nearly 200k - worth looking at for a direct London service.

Personally I would have loved a direct London to Scunthorpe service last year as I would have made weekly use of it (not now though).

I know it is off topic. But if the GC service is ever approved you can be certain the franchise operator will run via Market Rasen to kill it off before it starts.

 

[Clip]

I think what is called for,on pretty much all networks,is a no frills,standard class only semi-fast with no trimmings and proper pricing that people can book and get reasonably priced at 48-72 hours notice.
at the moment you either pay through the nose on the day,or get something obscenely cheap booked 3 months prior with restrictions on time of travel and TOC...there is nothing in between and that's a niche that can and should be filled

That's not what I asked is it.

Probably not if one compares the two directly, but if you run it via Scunthorpe (pop. 65,200) and Grimsby (pop. 88,300) and Cleethorpes (pop. 40,000) that's a combined population of nearly 200k - worth looking at for a direct London service.

Personally I would have loved a direct London to Scunthorpe service last year as I would have made weekly use of it (not now though).

So once a week for you and if we take you as a bench mark as one out of 200k for a once a week return trip your numbers fall down around you.

Show the demand and TOCs of OAO will have taken it on

 

[TUC]

I do think some rail enthusists live in their own little bubble in objecting to issues such as the lack of first class and fail to realise that most people just want a cheap, reasonably comfortable, reliable way of getting from A to B.