First Class

[jon0844]

Yes, the two seats are better. Bit tight sliding in, but worth it!

As for the front and middle, I guess it was an 8 car set and it meant the front of each set (thus middle being the second set). I wonder how they do it for a 12 car set? Coach numbers?

 

[Tetchytyke]

At City Thameslink last night they announced first class using coach numbers on the screens.

Assume that only works for the Electrostars though.

 

[southern442]

Can I ask what is the difference between first and standard on a scotrail 158? As far as I can tell only antimacassars, not even a partitioning door.

 

[reb0118]

Am I the only one who thinks that antimacassars on standard class seats (on transpennine and heathrow express) are pointless?

Ask yourself this: "What is the point of an antimacassar full stop?"

When you have done so return to your original question. Answers on a postcard please..............

 

[extendedpaul]

I'm travelling first class on the 09.45 from Paddington to Cardiff next Monday. It's a travelling chef service.

Am I right in thinking I get coffee and juice free and will be able to purchase a "Great Westerner" breakfast for £8.50 ?

 

[rdeez]

I frequently travel in first on XC on morning and evening peak services - firstly because it's surprisingly good value if you bag advance tickets, in many cases the first advance is as little as 30p extra*, sometimes (bizzarely, and mostly at weekends) it's actually cheaper than a standard advance! And secondly because on these services you'd be hard pushed to find a seat without a reservation, they're always rammed.

The first service on XC mainly offers a little more space, a table at every seat, and light snacks. It's not a huge difference, but when the price difference is so insignificant, I find it worthwhile.

Sadly my only other 1st experience so far has been with London Midland, which is basically different seats and some curtains. Weirdly, I found the slightly deeper seat cushions in LM's 1st to be more uncomfortable than their standard seats.

* I use a railcard, would be more without.

 

[Clip]

Bit of a bump but noticed these things which irks me

If you travel first class on London Midland then you get the bonus of spotting how many people get to travel without the bother of actually having a first class ticket (between Coventry and New Street seems particularly rife).

And you know they dont have a first class ticket how? Does the guard check them and just let them stay there? If so complain.

Well Southern are doing their usual bang up job at keeping people informed. I've had 2 letters this week from them. Read them when I got home from hols last night.

Letter 1 confirms they have my letter, claiming refunds are taking 20 days+ due to volume (in other words they are too tight to employ a decent number of letter readers) no answer to any of the questions I made!

What planet are these people on?!

.

How many letter readers would you like them to employ? And then what do all these spare letter readers do when they dont have much delay repay or whatever to sort out as there hasnt been any major disruption for months?


Of course, when it got out into the news that people were sat in railway offices not doing anything you would be jumpiung up and down saying what a waste of money it would be employing them wouldnt you

 

[tsr]

How many letter readers would you like them to employ? And then what do all these spare letter readers do when they dont have much delay repay or whatever to sort out as there hasnt been any major disruption for months?


Of course, when it got out into the news that people were sat in railway offices not doing anything you would be jumpiung up and down saying what a waste of money it would be employing them wouldnt you

Southern seem to have a fairly lengthy and ongoing shortage of people to handle emails & letters. It's been ongoing for at least a year, in my experience.

 

[Clip]

Southern seem to have a fairly lengthy and ongoing shortage of people to handle emails & letters. It's been ongoing for at least a year, in my experience.

Is that because of the time it takes to correspond back to you? I mean, if there is a major delay then you could have upwards of over 30,000 people claiming for that one day and if it goes on for a day or two then that figure will only get higher.

So, whilst I appreciate they may take longer to answer, what do you expect them to do about it - hire more staff? Not a problem,do you want agency which will incur the wrath of some people who dont like agency staff on the railway or do you make them full time employees, which brings me back to what do you do with them when there has been no disruption? Let them sit around scratching their arse for days on end.

Oh, and that'll be an extra £1.50 on the price of every ticket to pay for it too.


Its fine saying they don t have this that or the other, I love a good moan as the next man but if you are not going to even hint at providing a solution that suits all and is cost effective then why bother?

 

[tsr]

Is that because of the time it takes to correspond back to you? I mean, if there is a major delay then you could have upwards of over 30,000 people claiming for that one day and if it goes on for a day or two then that figure will only get higher.

So, whilst I appreciate they may take longer to answer, what do you expect them to do about it - hire more staff? Not a problem,do you want agency which will incur the wrath of some people who dont like agency staff on the railway or do you make them full time employees, which brings me back to what do you do with them when there has been no disruption? Let them sit around scratching their arse for days on end.

Oh, and that'll be an extra £1.50 on the price of every ticket to pay for it too.


Its fine saying they don t have this that or the other, I love a good moan as the next man but if you are not going to even hint at providing a solution that suits all and is cost effective then why bother?

I am not saying they can or will do anything about it, and indeed they themselves have informed me that they are not planning on any further measures to deal with correspondence. However, perhaps there is a need to employ more people, as protracted timescales for providing basic customer service functions for the region of a year is not attractive to anyone, and probably loses some custom and reputation. Southern are not the only operator on many of the routes they serve*, and people can choose to seek a favourable, quick answer to a query and travel with someone else, if need be.

Given that they fail to even acknowledge some emails of a fairly urgent nature for weeks at a time, I suggest they work out a way to improve the process. Sadly the problem will not go away unless some of their senior customer service management realise they need to deal with it.

I am not paid to advise on Southern's correspondence woes, nor do I have all the available statistical evidence to hand. Therefore I am not going to waste my time analysing such things on the basis of speculation and providing complex ideas of "solutions" which have little basis in fact. Perhaps they need to find a simpler way of dealing with Delay Repay enquiries or find some way of fully automating it using online submissions or something similar, but I do not know for certain.

*Much of the Brighton Mainline, their WCML routes, Metro services where duplicated by LO services, the West Coastway and Hastings routes all spring to mind.

 

[southern442]

Is that because of the time it takes to correspond back to you? I mean, if there is a major delay then you could have upwards of over 30,000 people claiming for that one day and if it goes on for a day or two then that figure will only get higher.

So, whilst I appreciate they may take longer to answer, what do you expect them to do about it - hire more staff? Not a problem,do you want agency which will incur the wrath of some people who dont like agency staff on the railway or do you make them full time employees, which brings me back to what do you do with them when there has been no disruption? Let them sit around scratching their arse for days on end.

Oh, and that'll be an extra £1.50 on the price of every ticket to pay for it too.


Its fine saying they don t have this that or the other, I love a good moan as the next man but if you are not going to even hint at providing a solution that suits all and is cost effective then why bother?

We have all learnt something here: DON'T TRAVEL 1ST ON SOUTHERN. Except maybe on fast Brighton's and GatEx, there is no knowing of whether or not your journey in first will be worth it. It is not worth paying extra to pray for a 377/3, a 1 that has 2+3 in standard or a 4

 

[reb0118]

..........even hint at providing a solution that suits all and is cost effective then why bother?

Seemingly there is this new fangled thing called a zero hours contract?

Lights blue touch paper & retires to safe distance.................

 

[Clip]

Seemingly there is this new fangled thing called a zero hours contract?

Lights blue touch paper & retires to safe distance.................

Overall thats a good idea but the problem you then get with such a thing is the availability of the staff when you have a massive influx of issues - they need to be available for it to work.

The problems wont go away, you're right but its very easy to sit there and criticise without knowing the full picture as to why they are slow in some things. Is it the same for everyone who uses them? Who knows, maybe its just the few who use this forum who have problems? Who knows?

 

[yorksrob]

We have all learnt something here: DON'T TRAVEL 1ST ON SOUTHERN. Except maybe on fast Brighton's and GatEx, there is no knowing of whether or not your journey in first will be worth it.

We all knew that the moment the last slam door compartment carriage made its way to that great depot in the sky, many moons ago.

 

[southern442]

Here is my list of whether or not first class is worth it (based upon the benefits and facilities) for EMU'S:
when one subclass of the same class says something different to another subclass, it is normally because of the standard class layout. e.g: in a 375/9 the standard class seats are of less quality to those of another 375, so therefore the first class is better value for money.
317/1,5 not really
other 317's yes
319 yes
321 LM + FC yes
other 321 no
332 yes
350/1 not really
350/2 yes
360 yes
365 yes
373 yes
375/9 yes
other 375's no
377 120-150, /3 sort of
/4 /5 yes
other 377 no
379 yes
390 yes
442 yes
444 yes
450 yes
458 yes
460 yes
465 sort of
note: by benefits and facilities I mean the type of seat compared to standard, whether it has armrests/tables etc.
If you disagree with anything on this list tell me.

 

[Manchester77]

460s don't exist anymore they're becoming 458/5s

350/1 not really
350/2 yes

What's so different about 350/1s and 350/2s other than the moquette?

 

[southern442]

460s don't exist anymore they're becoming 458/5s



What's different about 350/1s and 350/2s other than the moquette?

The 350/1's standard class is 2+2 intercity style which means that it is just about the same and the 350/2 is 2+3 suburban style.

 

[Manchester77]

I know but in you're post you're making out that the two classes first class compartments are different when they're not or are you comparing first to standard in which case you could do with making it clearer

 

[southern442]

I know but in you're post you're making out that the two classes first class compartments are different when they're not or are you comparing first to standard in which case you could do with making it clearer

Ok, but the post was talking about whether first was good value for money or not on each of the classes.

 

[38Cto15E]

On BBC Breakfast TV this morning they were discussing whether in this day and age First class is needed whilst on many commuter trains passengers were crammed into Standard Class.
Some smug manager from Chiltern said, We do not have First Class on our trains, only Business Class, that is the kind of PR bulls**t just annoys passengers even more.

 

[BestWestern]

On BBC Breakfast TV this morning they were discussing whether in this day and age First class is needed whilst on many commuter trains passengers were crammed into Standard Class.
Some smug manager from Chiltern said, We do not have First Class on our trains, only Business Class, that is the kind of PR bulls**t just annoys passengers even more.

Utterly stupid comment, utterly stupid policy!

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes Chiltern might be desperate to claim that it's not first class but it really is, you just pay for it a different way to normal (supplement rather than seperate ticket). Actually thinking about it if you had a London Terminals to Birmingham Stations first class ticket would it be valid in the 'business zone' without extra payment?

It was an interesting discussion but I felt that Christian Wolmar failed to really answer the point raised that if it wasn't making them money they wouldn't be running as much of it as they do (on the likes of EC and VT).

 

[tsr]

Yes Chiltern might be desperate to claim that it's not first class but it really is, you just pay for it a different way to normal (supplement rather than seperate ticket). Actually thinking about it if you had a London Terminals to Birmingham Stations first class ticket would it be valid in the 'business zone' without extra payment?

I believe the ticket would be accepted, but that this is not widely advertised. It would be best to speak to onboard staff on the train in question, who would have been briefed on such things, AFAIK.

 

[jon0844]

I think first class should remain, even on commuter routes.

Just because I won't usually travel first class (unless there's a cheap advance, which probably doesn't apply to commuter services, or it's declassified) doesn't mean I have any right to start moaning about others that do. If I needed to travel urgently one day and it was the difference between missing the train, or standing in discomfort, then I'd probably pay for first class and be happy that it was there.

That's not to say you can't re-evaluate how much of any given train is given over to first class - yet it's probably about right on a normal suburban commuter train.

It's the Intercity services where you might find that there's too much empty first class, and that's easily fixed by declassifying part of it at certain times of the day (or weekends) or offering cheaper supplements to upgrade on the train.

 

[Muzer]

Yes Chiltern might be desperate to claim that it's not first class but it really is, you just pay for it a different way to normal (supplement rather than seperate ticket). Actually thinking about it if you had a London Terminals to Birmingham Stations first class ticket would it be valid in the 'business zone' without extra payment?

It was an interesting discussion but I felt that Christian Wolmar failed to really answer the point raised that if it wasn't making them money they wouldn't be running as much of it as they do (on the likes of EC and VT).

Christian Wolmar fails to answer most points

 

[Aldaniti]

Some smug manager from Chiltern said, We do not have First Class on our trains, only Business Class, that is the kind of PR bulls**t just annoys passengers even more.

I thought the same. An ideal opportunity to promote the benefits of Chiltern Business lost. He looked a bit 40 watt to be honest...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Some smug manager from Chiltern said, We do not have First Class on our trains, only Business Class, that is the kind of PR bulls**t just annoys passengers even more.

Bit harsh to call it PR bull. It is a sort of first class, but with the way payment is made for the service it's not what people think of as first class. They charge on a weekday service what the likes of Virgin and EC only charge on a weekend first upgrade, and give you more for the money.

First class exists because the TOCs make money on it from people who don't want to associate with the hoi polloi, especially on the commuter runs into leafy Cambridgeshire or Kent.

On most London commuter TOCs it probably wouldn't really change anything by removing it, the first class compartments are tiny anyway. And on intercity TOCs first class is an expectation. That said, I think Virgin do go overboard with first class, and that has caused them massive overcrowding issues as a result.

 

[38Cto15E]

I think any TOC will have problems with First Class when the First Advance can be sometimes cheaper than Standard, I have been looking for a cheap ride out in First Class and Virgin from Stafford to Liverpool Lime St in the middle of the day is just £6.25 each way with a Railcard.
Looking at the bigger picture, when I was younger (much) I only ever travelled what is now called Standard, I used to look enviously at passengers in First knowing that when I was older that would be something to look forward to travelling in.
I can even remember a First class model restaurant car of the Thames Clyde express,in the forecourt of Leicester Station, you put a penny or whatever in the slot and the lights in the carriage would come on, something to look forward to doing in later years, please keep First.