First class travel for wheelchair users?

[whoosh]

I'm a bit lost why Southern First Class would even remotely be described as a "Treat".

If the user were missing out on first class service (e.g. refreshments etc) I'd see their point, but that doesn't apply to Southern services. You'd just be paying more for use of a different wheelchair space if there were one in first class....? What constitutes a first class wheelchair space?

Same seats with a handkerchief velcroed on. Really missing out!

Had a feeling some of the replies would accuse the complainant of being an attenion seeker. Disappointing.

They are unhappy that the only option they have is to be stuffed in second class next to a bog. In 2021 it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect any customer to be able to access any available class of accomodation.

It shouldn't be unreasonable to expect any customer to be able to access any available class of accommodation, you are right.

If first class on these trains, really was first class - like a Mark 4 is for example. If Mark 4s didn't have a wheelchair space in first class, I think that would be excluding someone based on their ability to walk, which is totally wrong. But this isn't proper first class.

It's almost verging on ripping off able-bodied first class customers - just a bit quieter, assuming that no scroats are just 'sitting where they like'. -That's the unreasonable thing.

"But what if someone in a wheelchair with a first class ticket wants to join their friends/colleagues with their first class tickets in first class - they can't."
I'm imagining could be your next comment, and yes, that is excluding someone. Which is wrong.

Again, it's the lacklustre provision of a "token effort" of first class which is the problem. I can see it being withdrawn completely like Chiltern to be honest and then there wouldn't be a problem, because it's an under-policed (on DOO at least) underwhelming bunch of seats with handkerchiefs on.

Slight digression, but it's not just Southern, elsewhere on GTR you've got declassified first class at the rear of every Thameslink train, and some at the front (Sutton/Wimbledon loop trains) as well.
Who's going to buy a first class ticket on Great Northern/Thameslink if they use these trains regularly?
There's a higher priced product which is being devalued. Visibly. Then people sit in the front un-declasified first class, because it's the same as at the back. And then other people see those people sitting where they like.
Some people can legitimately sit in the front first class section through the core on Wimbledon/Sutton trains, but then do so on other services, because what difference does it make?

So why buy a more expensive ticket?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that if first class was taken seriously, on non-Intercity trains, then thought would've perhaps been given to it's accessibility like it should be.

The guard hands you an antimacassar to put on your wheelchair.

Totally!!! Although it might be an OBS instead. DOO routes should have a print your own - like you can do print your own t-shirts.

Alternatively they're just arguing out of principle, but I'd argue that there are more pressing issues to highlight/fix. This seems like the wheelchair rail users equivalent of 'first world problems'...

First world problems!

Rocks up in own seat with a deep cushion, wider than the train's seats, and with arms on.
*Insert stereotype of having a warm comfortable tartan blanket*
"I'm forbidden from benefitting from the enhanced comfort of a seat in first class!"
"Err..."

Hmm...


There's a lot of comment about "being stuck next to a toilet," which I agree is sometimes not a pleasant place to sit. The problem here is, that to have the wheelchair space anywhere else, you are looking at 2+1 seating from the toilet to the wheelchair space. That's unreasonable on a commuter train.
Something like an Azuma with toilets near the gangway, a wide enough saloon door separating the vestibule, and then a wheelchair area, is of course preferable, but that's not really realistic on a commuter train.

For the record, I think trains generally need to be more comfortable for everyone but I don't think that's going to happen in any Electrostar, or even any other commuter train, anytime soon.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not at all. They quite rightly pointed out that they deserved to be able to sit in first away from the toilet, bike spaces and other parcels that build up around the area. Not a comfortable travelling experience.

If they’re a wheelchair user, they need to be able to access the universal toilet. If their put a space in first class but the toilet wasn’t accessible, this would be something else to complain about.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder to posters that the subject of this thread is first class travel for wheelchair users. This is not a discussion about the value of 1st class in general which we have debated to death in many other threads before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This has blown up on Twitter today https://twitter.com/adamhillscomedy/status/1436304683581194245

I don't think any TOC offers wheelchair spaces in 1st class? Maybe on the GWR IETs?

I think it has done them a favour, as First Class on Southern is exactly the same as Standard. At least I suppose it's not LNR where it's worse than Standard.

There is no point in wheelchair spaces in 1st on TOCs where there is no upgrade, because the wheelchair user doesn't benefit from the upgrade. The purpose of commuter 1st is basically a seat reservation. The wheelchair user has their wheelchair so does not require that facility.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2021 ==

Had a feeling some of the replies would accuse the complainant of being an attenion seeker. Disappointing.

They are unhappy that the only option they have is to be stuffed in second class next to a bog. In 2021 it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect any customer to be able to access any available class of accomodation.

Out of pure practicality, the only place you can have wheelchair accommodation is next to the bog, because otherwise they cannot access one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2021 ==

There's a lot of comment about "being stuck next to a toilet," which I agree is sometimes not a pleasant place to sit. The problem here is, that to have the wheelchair space anywhere else, you are looking at 2+1 seating from the toilet to the wheelchair space. That's unreasonable on a commuter train.

You could get a wheelchair down the aisle in a 700 (narrow 2+2), but practically many wheelchair users would find it hard to manoeuvre down the aisle of a moving train even if wide enough so it is still the sensible choice to put it near the toilet.

It would be all very well to say "but I might not need the loo so put another one further away", but if the train was stranded for a while due to an incident they may then be stuck for hours unable to reach it.

 

[driver9000]

I think the default wheelchair space in a TPE Mk5 is in 1st Class.

Same on the 397 and 802. In fact that's the only place for wheelchair passengers on the new TPE fleets.

 

[Clansman]

With the Thameslink debate, isn't the solution as easy as this (attached)?

Just move the first class headrest coverings and add a few stickers, a la 380 style. Doesn't solve the 700 issue mind you.

 

[alangla]

They are unhappy that the only option they have is to be stuffed in second class next to a bog. In 2021 it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect any customer to be able to access any available class of accomodation.

I’m slightly on the fence on this one. If wheelchair demand is significant, then yes, but if it’s less so (maybe less than 1 in 5 journeys conveying a wheelchair) then the Great Western/TPE “free upgrade” seems a reasonable solution, especially as first class vehicles usually have a bit more floor space etc.
IIRC, was it not VT’s plan to have 3 classes, all accessible, on the Voyagers that lead to the situation where there’s 3 megabogs between 4 coaches?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the Thameslink debate, isn't the solution as easy as this (attached)?

Just move the first class headrest coverings and add a few stickers, a la 380 style. Doesn't solve the 700 issue mind you.

The best option is to just get rid of it because it's an utter sham on these units.

 

[IanXC]

Class 185s do it well - the toilet and wheelchair spaces are separated by the vestibule.

I think you're thinking of class 158 units.

 

[43096]

I think you're thinking of class 158 units.

No, he’s thinking of Class 185 units.

Have a look at the internal layout plan: https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/onboard-facilities/seating-plan

 

[TheAlbanach_]

Class 185s do it well - the toilet and wheelchair spaces are separated by the vestibule.

185s are awful. Your segregated in your own little compartment with nothing but flip down seats. Not great for a w/c user if they’re travelling with someone else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

185s are awful. Your segregated in your own little compartment with nothing but flip down seats. Not great for a w/c user if they’re travelling with someone else.

It's also rubbish because people don't know there's more Standard and another toilet beyond the First Class. The inner end of a doors-at-thirds unit, like pretty much all the rest of them, is the best place for this facility.

It must rank as one of the most stupid layout decisions ever, give or take the entirety of the Voyager.

 

[GodAtum]

Southern got back to the customer.

So Southern got back to me. They know the issue with inequality around travel for wheelchair users. They are working on it. The man was lovely and fully understood my frustration being a wheelchair user themselves. Gotta sit by the loo for foreseeable future.

https://twitter.com/LadyAurelius/status/1437460340871155718

 

[IanXC]

No, he’s thinking of Class 185 units.

Have a look at the internal layout plan: https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/onboard-facilities/seating-plan

The 185 layout is far from ideal.

Class 185s do it well - the toilet and wheelchair spaces are separated by the vestibule.

On a 185 the toilet and wheelchair spaces are not separated at all, they are both in the 'ballroom' area.

On a 158 the toilet is accessed from the vestibule, and the wheelchair space is in the main saloon. Separated from the vestibule by a set of doors.

If he didn't mean 158s then a 158 clearly meets his definition of 'doing it well' much more effectively than a 185 does.

 

[peteb]

Chiltern Silver trains run an ex-Mk3 TRF (I think that's the classification) with space for wheelchair users next to a fully accessible toilet right at the front of the train next to the DVT. OK they don't advertise this as "first class" but, apart from no catering offer, to all intents and purposes this is a first class vehicle with 2+1 seat configuration. It was used by two wheelchair users when I last took it from Kidderminster to Marylebone. I didn't see them being excessed but then neither was anyone else on that (full and standing) journey.

 

[DanNCL]

It is possible for a wheelchair space to be located in a carriage without an accessible toilet whilst still providing said wheelchair space with access to one. Caledonian Sleeper manage this on their Mark 5s, whereby the wheelchair space in the lounge car has wheelchair access to the accessible toilet in the adjacent sleeping car, through the inter carriage gangway connection. I recognise that the gangways won't be wide enough for a wheelchair on every train, but where they are this isn't an unreasonable set up, and would remove the complaints about being "stuck" next to the toilet.

 

[BluePenguin]

I have read the entire Twitter thread and I think we can safely agree that it is a wind up. They are probably a disgruntled employee wanting to throw shade on Southern.

This person should hire a limo if they want to treat themselves and travel in style. Paying for first class on Southern would simply be a waste of money. Even if the seats were different, the person in the wheelchair would not be sitting in them anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

Paying for first class on Southern would simply be a waste of money. Even if the seats were different, the person in the wheelchair would not be sitting in them anyway.

The point is though that it is the separation that first class offers that they are seeking, not the seat. Admittedly that isn't much on Southern but on the 377/4s it does at least have a door separating it from the rest of the carriage.

That, and not sitting next to the toilet in what becomes a standee area of the train.

 

[yorkie]

I have read the entire Twitter thread and I think we can safely agree that it is a wind up. They are probably a disgruntled employee wanting to throw shade on Southern.

This person should hire a limo if they want to treat themselves and travel in style. Paying for first class on Southern would simply be a waste of money. Even if the seats were different, the person in the wheelchair would not be sitting in them anyway.

Yes it's a wind up. It could be an attention seeker. Attention seekers are not always capable of rational arguments.

It may actually be a clever attempt to see of GTR will admit that First is actually not materially any different to Standard on these trains, dressed up to be ostensibly a complaint about an entirely different issue.