First Class Ticket Holders Occupying Standard Seats

[Mutant Lemming]

There are instances of standard class ticket holders in first but what about first class ticket holders in standard when first is full ? Would they be entitled to a seat ? What if they occupied a reserved seat in standard and refused to vacate it unless they were given a seat somewhere ?

What rights do first class passengers have if no seat is available on the train - they can stand in first class ? I would imagine someone who had paid a full first class anytime fare would not be happy.

 

[222007]

I believe if they get there ticket endorsed by the on train staff they can claim the sifference in the 2 fares back?

 

[Nym]

Put it this way, if someone on a 185 off Piccadilly came up to me and said, 1st is full, I'm entitled to your seat, they'd be kindly told to sod off!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Put it this way, if someone on a 185 off Piccadilly came up to me and said, 1st is full, I'm entitled to your seat, they'd be kindly told to sod off!

..but if they were either already in your seat or they were with the guard who told you to vacate your seat for them ?

 

[SS4]

AFAIK there is no priority over other passengers without a seat reservation.

When it happened to me on a BHM-PGN [Paignton] the person checking the tickets asked us to look for seats in standard without a reservation. If it were the other way around I'd do what Nym did

 

[Nym]

..but if they were either already in your seat or they were with the guard who told you to vacate your seat for them ?

Then the guard would be kindly also told to sod off and I'd be phoning TPE customer services there and then to report him/her.

The only way I give my seat up for someone is if they have some kind of disability that prevents them standing or walking for extended periods of time.

(That I have, knees don't work like they used to, but theres sod all point in seeing a GP about it because it's an aperiodic condition that comes and goes, and how many 23 year olds have difficulty walking?)

And if they where in my RESERVED seat, they'd be told in no uncertain terms to move (politely at first) and if they didn't then it would be distinctly less polite...

 

[lyesbkz]

..but if they were either already in your seat or they were with the guard who told you to vacate your seat for them ?

Technically, nobody is entitled to the seat in which I am sitting, unless either they have reserved it or it is a priority seat and somebody has priority.

Obviously I'd be happy to give up any seat to somebody who really needed it more than me, but if it isn't designated as a priority seat then I don't have to.

 

[Flamingo]

I believe if they get there ticket endorsed by the on train staff they can claim the difference in the 2 fares back?

Correct, if one does not have a reservation, then one has no right to a seat in any class. However, if a STD class passenger was in a First class seat (ie told to sit there but 1st NOT officially declassified, or a staff 1st class passholder), they could be told to stand up again to make room for the !st class passenger.

 

[taxidave]

Taking the seat reservation thing on a bit further, what is the situation when although people have tickets with seat reservations the actual seats have no reservation on them.
Are you still entitled to that seat or is it just a free for all if the guard announces that there are no seat reservations on this train.
It happens very often on the Cheltenham to Paddington service.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The answer to this question provided by the NRCoC is

38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket

If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail timetable is not available on any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

The NRCoC goes on a length about passengers with Standard Tickets travelling in First, but that is all that is said about the present subject.
None of this of course has anything to do with the question of seats, which as others have noted, are not a passenger's automatic right (we should be pleased to be conveyed for A to Z whether seated, standing or recumbent).

I have been unable to find another reference which might be helpful in such circumstances, but as I recall, it required a passenger NOT to travel in a Class of accomodation other than the Class identified on the coaches. Now when we look at present-day coaching stock, we see that First Class is indentified, but that Standard Class is not. If the requirement is still in force, then with currrent stock, it requires passengers with a valid Standard Class ticket NOT to travel in First Class, but places no compulsion on the passenger with a First Class ticket to NOT travel in any Class.

Can anyone help me to locate this (dimly remembered) wording and identify the Regulation?

 

[Flamingo]

You are entitled to a refund if there is not a seat available. The seat offered does not have to be at a table, forward / backward facing, all 6 people together, or any of the other items requested when booking. It just has to be somewhere for the passenger to park their bum.

The lack of one's chosen seat being available does not mean an automatic upgrade to 1st if ANY other seat is available in STD (to correct one of the more common misapprehensions).

At weekends, no cleaners are on duty in Cheltenham, so the TM has to clean & label the train in the approx 20 minutes (possibly less) it is down the sidings. In most terminating stations, at least two, if not three cleaners would be allocated to do a HST in a similar time-frame. That's why reservations don't get put out in Cheltenham.

TBH, the chances of a Cheltenham train having no seats before Didcot is slim to nil, they never (even peak time) fill before Reading, (unless everything has gone totally pear-shaped), and the number of seats reserved from Didcot and Reading to London is miniscule.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

You are entitled to a refund if there is not a seat available. The seat offered does not have to be at a table, forward / backward facing, all 6 people together, or any of the other items requested when booking. It just has to be somewhere for the passenger to park their bum.

eg XC Luggage Racks!

 

[taxidave]

At weekends, no cleaners are on duty in Cheltenham, so the TM has to clean & label the train in the approx 20 minutes (possibly less) it is down the sidings. In most terminating stations, at least two, if not three cleaners would be allocated to do a HST in a similar time-frame. That's why reservations don't get put out in Cheltenham.

TBH, the chances of a Cheltenham train having no seats before Didcot is slim to nil, they never (even peak time) fill before Reading, (unless everything has gone totally pear-shaped), and the number of seats reserved from Didcot and Reading to London is minuscule.

I take your point about there usually being seats available on most Cheltenham to Paddington trains especially at Cheltenham where the train starts but what happens if I take a seat at Cheltenham and then somebody gets on at Kemble and has a reservation for the seat I am sitting in, are they entitled to that seat or should I stand/sit my ground and tell them that the guard has announced that there are no reservations and I am not going to move..

 

[Flamingo]

I take your point about there usually being seats available on most Cheltenham to Paddington trains especially at Cheltenham where the train starts but what happens if I take a seat at Cheltenham and then somebody gets on at Kemble and has a reservation for the seat I am sitting in, are they entitled to that seat or should I stand/sit my ground and tell them that the guard has announced that there are no reservations and I am not going to move..

Up to you, if there are other seats available and you are a nice person and for example it is a group of four and they reserved a table seat and you are the only one at the table seat, it would be a nice thing to let them have it (although, to be fair, you are not obliged to).

If it is an identical seat to all other empty seats in the carriage, well, they have no entitlement to it, and it depends on how much of an argument you want to have with them.

 

[34D]

I take your point about there usually being seats available on most Cheltenham to Paddington trains especially at Cheltenham where the train starts but what happens if I take a seat at Cheltenham and then somebody gets on at Kemble and has a reservation for the seat I am sitting in, are they entitled to that seat or should I stand/sit my ground and tell them that the guard has announced that there are no reservations and I am not going to move..

Is there a regular non-reserved carriage on FGW?

I remember about 10 years ago being on a late running GNER leeds-doncaster service. I boarded and sat down, then silver standard was set up around me. Guard then asked me to move, and threatened BTP. I pointed out that when I sat down there were no signs or anything to suggest it wasn't a normal standard class coach. Suffice to say I stayed where I was until Doncaster, but he made a point of removing the cup from my table so I didn't get free coffee.

 

[calc7]

I remember about 10 years ago being on a late running GNER leeds-doncaster service. I boarded and sat down, then silver standard was set up around me. Guard then asked me to move, and threatened BTP. I pointed out that when I sat down there were no signs or anything to suggest it wasn't a normal standard class coach. Suffice to say I stayed where I was until Doncaster, but he made a point of removing the cup from my table so I didn't get free coffee.

I have experienced similar issues on a Virgin SuperVoyager, in coach D. It is used for 1st on some services, standard for others. The crew aren't always great at removing the antimacassars and placemats. I had one run-in with a guard where I was sat in a seat with neither of those, but apparently it was "obviously First Class" as some of the other ones had them. I reminded him that many operators have mixed coaches, and that on 90% of VT services, coach D is STD. I was more than happy to move down the train, which I did.

 

[Flamingo]

Is there a regular non-reserved carriage on FGW?

Coach E and / or F whether 1st or STD never have reservations (unless we are missing some other coach in the formation and the reservations have to be put in E/F)

 

[34D]

I have experienced similar issues on a Virgin SuperVoyager, in coach D. It is used for 1st on some services, standard for others. The crew aren't always great at removing the antimacassars and placemats. I had one run-in with a guard where I was sat in a seat with neither of those, but apparently it was "obviously First Class" as some of the other ones had them. I reminded him that many operators have mixed coaches, and that on 90% of VT services, coach D is STD. I was more than happy to move down the train, which I did.

Is this coach 2+2 or 2+1? If I recall voyagers correctly F is one driving car (standard) and A is the other (first)?

 

[calc7]

Is this coach 2+2 or 2+1? If I recall voyagers correctly F is one driving car (standard) and A is the other (first)?

Virgin SuperVoyagers have 2+2 seating in coach D. Coach E is proper 1st (this is coach A on XC). Coach D comes with comfier seats and free WiFi - all because it is used for First on a handful of services each day. The regulars know that this is the place to be.

 

[34D]

Hmmm. I've never noticed this on Virgin voyager trips I've made in the past. Does anyone have pics of this layout?

I'm surprised that we don't have a thread on here "paid for a first class ticket made to sit in 2+2 and given one cup of tea."

 

[calc7]

Hmmm. I've never noticed this on Virgin voyager trips I've made in the past. Does anyone have pics of this layout?

I'm surprised that we don't have a thread on here "paid for a first class ticket made to sit in 2+2 and given one cup of tea."

Managed to find this one on the web:

You can also find seating plans here:
http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/global/seating-plan.pdf

 

[lookingforit35]

Virgin SuperVoyagers have 2+2 seating in coach D. Coach E is proper 1st (this is coach A on XC). Coach D comes with comfier seats and free WiFi - all because it is used for First on a handful of services each day. The regulars know that this is the place to be.

I've only made one return trip (Euston - Chester) on a Virgin SuperVoyager. But thanks to the wisdom imparted on this forum I headed straight for Coach D. My eternal thanks to you all!

 

[calc7]

I've only made one return trip (Euston - Chester) on a Virgin SuperVoyager. But thanks to the wisdom imparted on this forum I headed straight for Coach D. My eternal thanks to you all!

Good stuff.
And with its location next to the shop, you can pay half the price, still get your coffee and sandwich without too much fuss and get a similar service to those paying full whack in the peaks!

 

[34D]

Managed to find this one on the web:

You can also find seating plans here:
http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/global/seating-plan.pdf

That is very sneaky. That's just a standard 2nd class layout. Nothing at all about that layout makes me think first class.

I have actually sat in this area myself, with 6 colleagues, doing Llandudno to Euston on standard class tickets - it never even occurred that this area might be first some days.

 

[calc7]

That is very sneaky. That's just a standard 2nd class layout. Nothing at all about that layout makes me think first class.

I have actually sat in this area myself, with 6 colleagues, doing Llandudno to Euston on standard class tickets - it never even occurred that this area might be first some days.

The seats are noticeably more comfortable than the standard SuperVoyager seats (from my own experience of having to use Coach A/B/C when D is being used for First). Agreed, though, one can't help but think that you'll be getting a lesser First Class service in a coach that is further from the kitchen, more likely to be mistaken for standard and doesn't even have all the antimacassars, placemats and cups/saucers in place on departing Euston.

 

[34D]

The seats are noticeably more comfortable than the standard SuperVoyager seats (from my own experience of having to use Coach A/B/C when D is being used for First). Agreed, though, one can't help but think that you'll be getting a lesser First Class service in a coach that is further from the kitchen, more likely to be mistaken for standard and doesn't even have all the antimacassars, placemats and cups/saucers in place on departing Euston.

I'll defer to your better knowledge of the comparision. Was the layout thus when they were with Virgin XC, or were they reconfigured when Arriva XC was awarded?

 

[taxidave]

I shall be travelling on the 9.20 from Birmingham to Glasgow on a Monday in March, can someone please tell me if this will be a Voyager or Pendolino.

 

[WillPS]

The seats are noticeably more comfortable than the standard SuperVoyager seats (from my own experience of having to use Coach A/B/C when D is being used for First). Agreed, though, one can't help but think that you'll be getting a lesser First Class service in a coach that is further from the kitchen, more likely to be mistaken for standard and doesn't even have all the antimacassars, placemats and cups/saucers in place on departing Euston.

It does when it's in use as First Class.