First class provision on the North Downs Line.

[Deepgreen]

mods note - split from this thread

Despite Mark Hopwood's assurance to me months ago that the NDL's first class provision and enforcement was being sorted out - nope, this was 165105 yesterday (just one example of the daily failures). The guards have given up and it's a free-for-all. I've written to him again saying nothing has improved and suggesting they either get it in hand or abolish it, rather than the current mess.

 

[Kite159]

Despite Mark Hopwood's assurance to me months ago that the NDL's first class provision and enforcement was being sorted out - nope, this was 165105 yesterday (just one example of the daily failures). The guards have given up and it's a free-for-all. I've written to him again saying nothing has improved and suggesting they either get it in hand or abolish it, rather than the current mess.View attachment 145027

Easiest way will be to simply abolish it, depending on how many genuine First class passengers it gets.

 

[Deepgreen]

Easiest way will be to simply abolish it, depending on how many genuine First class passengers it gets.

I agree, but they seem determined to continue with the current mis-managed mess.

 

[DelW]

Easiest way will be to simply abolish it, depending on how many genuine First class passengers it gets.

I agree, but they seem determined to continue with the current mis-managed mess.

Possibly it may get more use, and maybe better enforcement, once all trains run to Gatwick under the new December timetable.

The current on/off nature of first class provision seemed to stem from the odd era when it was deemed to be operational on Gatwick semifasts but not on Redhill stoppers, despite the stock being identical.

I imagine that through passengers from elsewhere on GWR (or beyond) to Gatwick are more likely to have first class tickets than North Downs local passengers are.

 

[Deepgreen]

5 three car turbos today. Allows 1 to run to Barnstaple which I think they prefer. All the 2 car 158s and 165s have gone. There must have been a lot of complaints gone in the last few weeks.

I think there are a lot of complaints in many areas about GWR's rolling stock provision!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2023 ==

Possibly it may get more use, and maybe better enforcement, once all trains run to Gatwick under the new December timetable.

The current on/off nature of first class provision seemed to stem from the odd era when it was deemed to be operational on Gatwick semifasts but not on Redhill stoppers, despite the stock being identical.

I imagine that through passengers from elsewhere on GWR (or beyond) to Gatwick are more likely to have first class tickets than North Downs local passengers are.

Agreed about the split of passengers using first. The saga has been going on for years, though, and was compounded by the re-branding which made identifying it from the outside very much more difficult. The 769s, however, had excellent first class demarcation...! Then the 'Turbo' stock was moved about, the advertised first class workings kept changing and the stock that WAS/IS used had/has little or no labelling and doors locked out of use. As things stand, the whole thing is an embarrassment. It's partly symptomatic of the failure of privatisation to insist on proper, standardised labelling, and of the failure of the TOC seemingly to take the matter at all seriously. I can't blame the staff for the confusion - it's just appalling management. When all trains go to Gatwick, it will still require proper labelling, anti-maccassars, etc., to be in place, which GWR seem incapable of managing. I don't see why that should necessarily change just because the Redhills (which currently are all advertised as having first anyway) are extended. All trains on the route currently have first advertised and all will in the new timetable - no meaningful change.

I'll see what Mark Hopwood says this time (probably after another three month wait for a reply!).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It's partly symptomatic of the failure of privatisation to insist on proper, standardised labelling

To be blunt that isn’t true - SNCF is not privatised and on similar lines operated by Corails / DMUs there’s similar discrepancies over provision of first class, first class not provided where it should be and provided and labelled as such when it isn’t timetabled to be there.

I understand your issues but to simply say it would it would not happen on a modern day nationalised railway is not true.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Despite Mark Hopwood's assurance to me months ago that the NDL's first class provision and enforcement was being sorted out - nope, this was 165105 yesterday (just one example of the daily failures). The guards have given up and it's a free-for-all. I've written to him again saying nothing has improved and suggesting they either get it in hand or abolish it, rather than the current mess.View attachment 145027

Honestly though, I do think this is starting become somewhat an obsession.

 

[Deepgreen]

To be blunt that isn’t true - SNCF is not privatised and on similar lines operated by Corails / DMUs there’s similar discrepancies over provision of first class, first class not provided where it should be and provided and labelled as such when it isn’t timetabled to be there.

I understand your issues but to simply say it would it would not happen on a modern day nationalised railway is not true.

I didn't say that. However, it was extremely rare under the last nationalised system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2023 ==

Honestly though, I do think this is starting become somewhat an obsession.

I can see why you say that, but it's the wider issue of accountability and honesty, plus good 'knowing how to run a railway properly' that concerns me, rather that having first class per se. As I've said, I'd be happy if it was abolished on the route, but it's an example in microcosm of the much greater malaise of the railway that this has gone on in this ludicrous limbo for so long.

 

[Minstral25]

Agreed about the split of passengers using first. The saga has been going on for years, though, and was compounded by the re-branding which made identifying it from the outside very much more difficult. The 769s, however, had excellent first class demarcation...! Then the 'Turbo' stock was moved about, the advertised first class workings kept changing and the stock that WAS/IS used had/has little or no labelling and doors locked out of use. As things stand, the whole thing is an embarrassment. It's partly symptomatic of the failure of privatisation to insist on proper, standardised labelling, and of the failure of the TOC seemingly to take the matter at all seriously. I can't blame the staff for the confusion - it's just appalling management. When all trains go to Gatwick, it will still require proper labelling, anti-maccassars, etc., to be in place, which GWR seem incapable of managing. I don't see why that should necessarily change just because the Redhills (which currently are all advertised as having first anyway) are extended. All trains on the route currently have first advertised and all will in the new timetable - no meaningful change.

I'll see what Mark Hopwood says this time (probably after another three month wait for a reply!).

I don't think the first class is important on the line for local users but I suspect it is a Revenue point for GWR to cover for first class tickets from (say) Bristol to Gatwick, they need to have first class for the few people that buy first class tickets.

 

[Deepgreen]

I don't think the first class is important on the line for local users but I suspect it is a Revenue point for GWR to cover for first class tickets from (say) Bristol to Gatwick, they need to have first class for the few people that buy first class tickets.

Yep, very likely. I bet those passengers wonder why they bothered when they board the 165s and find their 'first class' full of students, etc!

 

[Master29]

Seriously, Is that pic GWR's first class provision for this route? A silly bit of green flannel on top of those pathetic seats. First Group should be allowed to run baths let alone trains.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Seriously, Is that pic GWR's first class provision for this route? A silly bit of green flannel on top of those pathetic seats. First Group should be allowed to run baths let alone trains.

What sort of a comment is that?
There’s plenty of operations at home and abroad where First Class doesn’t have wildly different seating and this isn’t a new thing or just a FG thing.

BR 158s in Scotland when they were new.
Southern class 377s
DB 612 DMUs

Also similar to airlines in Europe, BA Club Europe for example.

 

[DelW]

Seriously, Is that pic GWR's first class provision for this route? A silly bit of green flannel on top of those pathetic seats. First Group should be allowed to run baths let alone trains.

The green cloth is part of the seat covering. First class is 2+2 with fixed armrests, while standard is (mostly) 3+2 without. It's not brilliant but they are short-distance trains.

 

[Deepgreen]

Seriously, Is that pic GWR's first class provision for this route? A silly bit of green flannel on top of those pathetic seats. First Group should be allowed to run baths let alone trains.

Indeed. The green is part of the seat covering (which is actually quite smart). The same covering is used throughout the unit. The doors from first to standard are locked out of use, the spotlights no longer work, the mini tables are falling off the walls again and the switches controlling those lights are either left as they are or plated over badly. The seats are 2+2 rather than 3+2 as in standard. This can be the first experience of UK railways' first class arriving at Gatwick..! I thought Southern were bad, but this plumbs new depths.

The thing for me is not whether first is provided on the route or not (and abolishing it would free up more seats, in theory), but that it is advertised (and charged for), and has been mis-managed for so many years. The section should have had a proper refurbishment to include prominent permanent first class denotation, inside and out and reliable connecting doors that work. Then, for those workings they are used on which don't have first advertised, they can have recorded p.a. announcements and visual messages saying that it is declassified. It really is not hard to do, and has nothing to do with rolling stock shortage.

It is my local route so I notice it every time I go anywhere by train, hence what some think of as my 'obsession'. My obsession with the railways, if I have one, is the sloppiness with which they are now operated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

What sort of a comment is that?
There’s plenty of operations at home and abroad where First Class doesn’t have wildly different seating and this isn’t a new thing or just a FG thing.

BR 158s in Scotland when they were new.
Southern class 377s
DB 612 DMUs

Also similar to airlines in Europe, BA Club Europe for example.

It's a comment that probably reflects the thoughts of any first class ticket holder on finding their class 165 accommodation (in fact very close to comments I have heard from passengers)! Just because there are other bad examples doesn't excuse it.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Indeed. The green is part of the seat covering (which is actually quite smart). The same covering is used throughout the unit. The doors from first to standard are locked out of use, the spotlights no longer work, the mini tables are falling off the walls again and the switches controlling those lights are either left as they are or plated over badly. The seats are 2+2 rather than 3+2 as in standard. This can be the first experience of UK railways' first class arriving at Gatwick..! I thought Southern were bad, but this plumbs new depths.

The thing for me is not whether first is provided on the route or not (and abolishing it would free up more seats, in theory), but that it is advertised (and charged for), and has been mis-managed for so many years. The section should have had a proper refurbishment to include prominent permanent first class denotation, inside and out and reliable connecting doors that work. Then, for those workings they are used on which don't have first advertised, they can have recorded p.a. announcements and visual messages saying that it is declassified. It really is not hard to do, and has nothing to do with rolling stock shortage.

It is my local route so I notice it every time I go anywhere by train, hence what some think of as my 'obsession'. My obsession with the railways, if I have one, is the sloppiness with which they are now operated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==


It's a comment that probably reflects the thoughts of any first class ticket holder on finding their class 165 accommodation (in fact very close to comments I have heard from passengers)! Just because there are other bad examples doesn't excuse it.

Is the big sign on the windows in the photo at the top of this post saying First Class a clear marking then?

 

[Deepgreen]

Is the big sign on the windows in the photo at the top of this post saying First Class a clear marking then?

It's not a "big sign", though, is it (and many are missing anyway)? In any case, people look at seats these days because that's where so many TOCs choose to display their first class labelling. I have seen countless people enter the first on 165s and very obviously (from their body language) assume it isn't use as such because the doors are locked open, the seats are bare, etc.

It's really odd that people here are seemingly defending GWR's sloppiness, not to mention their style-over-function livery which has a ridiculous pencil stripe for first class. The 769s had it right!

 

[Stigy]

The green cloth is part of the seat covering. First class is 2+2 with fixed armrests, while standard is (mostly) 3+2 without. It's not brilliant but they are short-distance trains.

Unless you travel from Portsmouth to Cardiff, whereby there’s not even a first class fare. They’ve essentially kept all the interiors the same, so they can run them on routes without first class.

That aside, First Class accommodation on any train should have far plusher seats than standard class, in at least a different marking.

 

[Minstral25]

I think the issue is that the refurbishment of the 3 cars was planned when they were being removed mostly to routes with no First Class and 769's with proper(?) first class being installed in place. Hence the poor First Class provision when they have been repurposed onto North Downs. So I guess that blame for poor first class should be attributed to the DfT not GWR.

 

[JonathanH]

From the pictures posted, the 769 first class appeared to be marked out better, but the internal doors had been removed and the seats, while larger, were upholstered in the same moquette as the 165s.

 

[Phil R]

I think the issue is that the refurbishment of the 3 cars was planned when they were being removed mostly to routes with no First Class and 769's with proper(?) first class being installed in place. Hence the poor First Class provision when they have been repurposed onto North Downs. So I guess that blame for poor first class should be attributed to the DfT not GWR.

...is the right answer. Given these units are now going to presumably stay ufn, you'd think retrofitting carpet etc. might be appropriate.

 

[Master29]

What sort of a comment is that?
There’s plenty of operations at home and abroad where First Class doesn’t have wildly different seating and this isn’t a new thing or just a FG thing.

BR 158s in Scotland when they were new.
Southern class 377s
DB 612 DMUs

Also similar to airlines in Europe, BA Club Europe for example.

..And you make excuses for this. Would you pay extra for it? On this basis sounds a reasonable point to make.

 

[Clarence Yard]

mods note - split from this thread

Despite Mark Hopwood's assurance to me months ago that the NDL's first class provision and enforcement was being sorted out - nope, this was 165105 yesterday (just one example of the daily failures). The guards have given up and it's a free-for-all. I've written to him again saying nothing has improved and suggesting they either get it in hand or abolish it, rather than the current mess.View attachment 145027

Just to be clear, the photo you took shows no antimacassars. Are you saying they were just missing on that particular unit or that GWR are not providing them at all on the 165 3 cars working the North Downs route?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Made two trips yesterday one had no visual presence throughout whole journey hid in the back cab Redhill to Reading yet on the return the conductor was very visible both on ticket checking and helping people find seats as it was pretty busy. Generally i would say conductors are pretty good over here but im erratic traveller along teh route so will defer to those that use it frequently.

@Clarence Yard both units had antimacassars yesterday one of the units was 109.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That aside, First Class accommodation on any train should have far plusher seats than standard class, in at least a different marking.

Surely you must agree that the large, squashy first class seats on Great Western 165s are indeed far plusher than the matchstick thin 3+2 standard class ones? I'd personally go as far as to call them (in my opinion) the most comfortable 2+2 seats in the UK, though that's just my personal taste of course.

 

[DelW]

Surely you must agree that the large, squashy first class seats on Great Western 165s are indeed far plusher than the matchstick thin 3+2 standard class ones? I'd personally go as far as to call them (in my opinion) the most comfortable 2+2 seats in the UK, though that's just my personal taste of course.

Even standard class on a Turbo feels comfortable after spending an hour or more on a class 80x seat where the squab's padding has collapsed into the seat frame ...

 

[Stigy]

Surely you must agree that the large, squashy first class seats on Great Western 165s are indeed far plusher than the matchstick thin 3+2 standard class ones? I'd personally go as far as to call them (in my opinion) the most comfortable 2+2 seats in the UK, though that's just my personal taste of course

I agree they’re thicker generally, but feel they should be leatherette at least in any first class accommodation. Admittedly not many operators used that I guess. The worst in my opinion is Southern, who seem to just use identical seats to standard class.

 

[JonathanH]

I agree they’re thicker generally, but feel they should be leatherette at least in any first class accommodation.

That is a matter of personal taste, as much as some of the other comments above, and the reality is that fake leather is not universally welcomed as a seat covering. It is true that for the Turbos only the size of the seat and markings distinguish first class.

Sometimes a different colour seat can be useful to distinguish first class, but the material itself doesn't have to be different.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

The worst in my opinion is Southern, who seem to just use identical seats to standard class.

First class on most of the London commuter network is simply paying a great deal for a seat reservation. Considering the salaries of some, this is a cost that is often not felt.