First class on trains - what's the point?

[GodAtum]

An article from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8557468.stm

Most of the time a buy a standard ticket and if there are no seats I go into 1st and get an upgrade.
As for it being safer I'm not convinced as anyone could walk through and mug you!

 

[jopsuk]

It was interesting that the class 395 were configured without First Class.

I'd certainly say that on most London commuter routes, FC is pointless (beyond buying an FC ticket giving you more chance of getting a seat). I do sometimes wonder what people who buy a 1st class ticket for West Anglia services think when they see what they get for their money, especially on a quiet service on a 317/1.

As well as Chiltern, it's only c2c and Northern that are without 1st entirely, yes?

 

[Failed Unit]

The 2.5 hours limit seems a bit harsh, I have no problems with MP travelling to Bristol, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle etc in 1st Class. Seems fair enough.

This subject always causes a lot of debate.

In the South East for example the seats are exactly often the same as the standard class seats, you get no more perks. First class really only increases your chance of getting a seat. If you take London - Tonbridge Wells for example, I can't see how anyone can feel safer in first or enjoy power sockets etc when it is just a normal part of the train! Many routes in the South East don't even police first class so it is quite easy to say what is the point.

On regional areas where first is on offer (Scotrail, TPE and XC) You do get a better seat and some freebies. But I would challange anyone to say that the extra money is worth it on say Edinburgh - Glasgow. Newcastle - Manchester and Edinburgh - Aberdeen.

The Inter-city route, first class if definately needed. If people are prepared to pay the price let them. There are some passengers on IC routes that would be lost if it was abolished.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was interesting that the class 395 were configured without First Class.

I'd certainly say that on most London commuter routes, FC is pointless (beyond buying an FC ticket giving you more chance of getting a seat). I do sometimes wonder what people who buy a 1st class ticket for West Anglia services think when they see what they get for their money, especially on a quiet service on a 317/1.

I once had a 1st ticket from Harlow - Manchester. I was unlucky as I got 2x 317/8's. I know it doesn't take long to get to Tottenham hale for the tube, but it is bad of the roulette you get on that route. The 317/7 & 317/6's are better in standard than the 317/8's and 317/5's are in first!

Needless to say I am glad that I was only in first on that route because it was an extension onto the IC route!

As well as Chiltern, it's only c2c and Northern that are without 1st entirely, yes?

Probably yes now, I was going to offer ATW but they have one train per day. EMT and Great Western locals are standard only, but we have the mainline.

 

[WatcherZero]

My thinking is like this, sorry if it seems disjointed

As Journey time <
Required Comfort <
As standard class quality >
Need for 1st class quality <

So on commuter routes 1st class dissapeared due to an acceptable time of discomfort, what year did 1st class dissapear on the underground?
As standard class quality increases (seen abroad and on Javelin) need for first class also is removed. However higher standard class requires extra space. As passenger numbers increase not matched by an increase in capacity then quality would decrease.

Answer: Shorter journeys and more capacity removes need for a seperate 1st class, so we need longer trains (like Javelin commuter) or double decker trains (where length cant be increased) so that standard class quality can increase slightly and we can remove first class.

 

[Aictos]

I prefer to use first class on long trips like Peterborough to Scotland as it's much more relaxing.

 

[mrcheek]

I always go first class when I do an All Line Rover (currently on my 3rd, Im writing this from a hotel in Inverness, having been to Kyle of Localsh today!). Its not much more expensive, and its a great benefit for me as I tend to do lots of long cross country journeys. and on many of those youy wont get a seat in standard class at busy times.

I like to have a single seat to myself. The extra legroom is good too. The last thing you want when doing a 2 week ALR, spending up to 16 hours on trains each day, is to be uncomfortable!

But I doubt I would use 1st class for other journeys. I cant see it being worth the extra.

 

[TDK]

An article from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8557468.stm

Most of the time a buy a standard ticket and if there are no seats I go into 1st and get an upgrade.
As for it being safer I'm not convinced as anyone could walk through and mug you!

Depends who you travel with, on WSMR you get a 2 course meal and free beverages and we all know what the 1st class is like on a Mark 3. Looking around I think the majority of 1st class passengers on say Virgin are business customers who do not pay for the ticket anyway. As for the MP who quotes that the customers in first class are a totally different type ofpeople is just a snob who thinks he is better than the rest, as the survey says, there isn't any difference between the people who travel in first or standard. The price is higher but the comfort and service in first class is superior.

 

[Failed Unit]

Depends who you travel with, on WSMR you get a 2 course meal and free beverages and we all know what the 1st class is like on a Mark 3. .

Been arkward, but I would word that as.

Travel with WSMR and Virgin in first class you get food and drink included in the price. Believe me you have paid for the "complementary" stuff. Virgin still run out of food as sometimes the guess they make about the number of first class passengers with walk on ticket is wrong. I always feel more miffed if the food is all gone on Virgin compared to East Coast as I have already paid for it on Virgin, at least on east coast I am hungry but not out of pocket!

 

[jon0844]

I'm just reading it now...

 

[Aictos]

A refurbished 321 I see, what the first class like compared to the 317s and 365s?

 

[Lee_Again]

London commuter services; just about pointless in First. However, when I was based in London I had a 1st class annual season (Stevenage > All Zones). It was about £6 per day more expensive than standard. For that I could get a seat on any train in the mornings. Coming home, I would always try for the 18.30 GNER Newcastle train. Free Standard (30p saved) and free coffee (£2 saved) and free biscuits (£1 saved). Oh, and a large seat with table on a MK4. And you could smoke in those days, too.

For medium distance (say 1-2 hours) I would rarely travel in Standard. You can get some excellent advance fares in first. I would NEVER travel Standard for longer trips. I/we (when the wife comes along) often go to Scotland. Some of the people who travel on those trains really need to attend some social skills training courses. I'm no snob but really, some people? Never paid more than £80 return to Edinburgh (except once on NXEC; greedy b******s).

 

[GodAtum]

I'm just reading it now...

View attachment 2332

Cool what route are you on?

 

[jon0844]

A refurbished 321 I see, what the first class like compared to the 317s and 365s?

It's quite nice. Decent tables (and you don't have to be Kate Moss to get in and out, like the 365s) and fold-down seat tables on all but the ones at the end.

You also have two compartments, with the doorway between that isn't first class - which means people can stand there, and no doubt edge their way in to first class! Not sure that's the best design in the world - but I guess it's better than the 317s and easier to police than the 365s.

It sounds silly, but I've occasionally waited nearly 30 minutes to get this train back instead of taking a 313 that runs before - doing the same stopping pattern, but - well, no contest!

@GodAtum, It's a FCC 321 from King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City.

 

[Ivo]

I think that there are a few short-ish distance routes that would benefit from having First-Class accommodation. The Brighton and Cambridge fast services spring to mind with this one. But otherwise, it's essentially pointless except for long distance journeys. Mind you, if I can pay literally a couple of pounds to have peace, comfort, curtains, a table and most importantly of all a guaranteed seat, I'm game.

 

[Fincra5]

To be honest i do prefer 1st class. Especailly when a train is busy. Its good sometimes when you can get a 1st class ticket really cheap.

 

[Lampshade]

First Class is ridiculous on Pendolinos, who thought it would be a good idea to make pretty much half the train FC? :?

 

[Tom B]

I travel First Class on advance purchase tickets; generally because it is not that much more expensive than Standard, and for that you do get a quiet carriage, more space, and a few freebies. I wouldn't pay the walk up fare.

My main issue with it under NXEC was you never knew what you would get - sometimes you'd have a good crew who would be back and forth with the trolley all the time, other times the trolley would literally go up and down once per journey. Actually, the main reason I *don't* rely on train catering is that I can never rely on it being there.

 

[yorkie]

@GodAtum, It's a FCC 321 from King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City.

In Standard Class of course, as there is no FC class on the suburban services. I wonder how many people didn't go in there because they didn't realise? Or maybe they don't want to put up a fight against the occasional nazi-like RPIs that I've heard about on this route

 

[Failed Unit]

In Standard Class of course, as there is no FC class on the suburban services. I wonder how many people didn't go in there because they didn't realise? Or maybe they don't want to put up a fight against the occasional nazi-like RPIs that I've heard about on this route

When I lived on that route I once asked them to excess me as I couldn't find the fare at the ticket vending machine. (was doing Kings Cross - New Barnet) He went of chuntering when he couldn't find the fare either saying he would let me off this time. However won't really work to Welwyn as it does have a first class fare. People seem to know the score on Scotrail, no-one thinks twice about sitting in first class on a local service operated by a 158 or 170(with first fitted). Although I did get an apology once from a gaurd on a Dunblane train about the lack of catering when I did have a first class ticket.

 

[jon0844]

Actually, I think that after a few embarrassing incidents, RPIs now check their timetables quite thoroughly before coming in to first class and thinking they're going to make a mint on dishing out PF's.

I've seen them checking outside the compartment before coming in (not sure they they don't do it before they board), so they're obviously aware of the fact that people do know about first being declassified on certain services.

One quite senior RPI must have looked rather silly when he'd issued a PF and then had to go back cancel it after he tried to give me a PF!

As a guide, FC won't be designated to a service that is covered by 313s (or marked 3 or 6-car). If FCC opts to run a 4 or 8-car train for logistical reasons, they can't then enable first class - even if you CAN get first class tickets to WGC (as you can take any of the many semi-fast services).

 

[Failed Unit]

First Class is ridiculous on Pendolinos, who thought it would be a good idea to make pretty much half the train FC? :?

What I find strange is Virgin don't do anything about it. They could fill it up more if they wanted. For example if you hold an anytime return in the off peak period then they could let you travel in first class for free. I am sure Midland mainline used to do something simalar. The could the sell more AP tickets in standard. I know GNER used to let people with full open tickets use first class for free at the weekends.

The other thing that Virgin could do is increase the quota of first class tickets. GNER used to fill up most of first class with AP ticket holders. I am sure if you are travelling from London - Manchester and you could get a first class ticket for a reasonable sum more you would take the option at least one way. I stopped using 1st on NXEC when the price increase and the service decrease. Now the service is on the way up again I am happy to be back up front.

 

[cuccir]

As for the MP who quotes that the customers in first class are a totally different type ofpeople is just a snob who thinks he is better than the rest, as the survey says, there isn't any difference between the people who travel in first or standard. The price is higher but the comfort and service in first class is superior.

I have a little (only a little) sympathy here. I don't think he meant to actually say these people were scum - just that people in standard may be doing all kinds of things, whilst within first class there is an expectation that you'll be able to work. If first is a few pounds more than standard, but the MP can definitely get some work done by travelling in first, then there is an advantage to the MP travelling in first. In standard I would have no problem cracking open a few tins of beers and having a laugh with mates; in first I wouldn't do that. In standard you might get lots of people doing short trips on a long distance train (eg Durham to Newcastle on an East Coast) as part of a night out or social event or trip with kids or whatever; you don't get that on first.

As for whether it is worthwhile - it is if you get an advance ticket! But I don't think I'd ever be tempted to pay the first fare if it wasn't on some sort of discount.

 

[Squaddie]

I will only travel by train if I can get a cheap advance first class ticket. Second-class accommodation on Britain's trains is generally dreadful*, and a full walk-on first-class fare is outrageously expensive.

If I can't get a cheap first-class ticket I either use the bus (which is cheaper and generally more comfortable than second class on the train) or just don't travel.


*With the notable exception of WSMR, although even they have succumbed to temptation and squeezed in a few more seats so that they don't line up with the windows any more.

 

[yorksrob]

If I can't get a cheap first-class ticket I either use the bus (which is cheaper and generally more comfortable than second class on the train) or just don't travel.

My goodness, which buses do you use

Usually I don't find standard too bad - although it does often depend on getting a table/window seat in my experience.

Had a very pleasant journey from Waterloo to Brockenhurst in Standard yesterday in a very clean 444. For the journey down from Yorkshire though there's nothing quite like advanced 1st.

 

[GodAtum]

Had a very pleasant journey from Waterloo to Brockenhurst in Standard yesterday in a very clean 444.

SWT standard class on 444/445s are usually quite clean and pleasant to sit in.

 

[Edvid]

First Class is ridiculous on Pendolinos, who thought it would be a good idea to make pretty much half the train FC? :?

You'd be surprised by the FC loadings on peak Manchester - Euston services!

Incidentally, I had a First Anytime Day Single (VT-only) from Coventry - Birmingham International for £2.20 the other day. The loadings were (unsurprisingly) low but for such a low price I still got access to the FC lounges.

 

[Failed Unit]

My goodness, which buses do you use

Usually I don't find standard too bad - although it does often depend on getting a table/window seat in my experience.

Had a very pleasant journey from Waterloo to Brockenhurst in Standard yesterday in a very clean 444. For the journey down from Yorkshire though there's nothing quite like advanced 1st.

I haven't been on many comfortable buses either, coaches maybe Buses normally have less leg room than pacers and are so slow. Market Rasen - Lincoln by train 15 minutes or nearly 1 hour by bus. The bus has the advantage of been hourly but slow, they train runs for longer and you can get beyond Lincoln.

It is good to have the choice however.

 

[cuccir]

Second-class accommodation on Britain's trains is generally dreadful

That's just not true. Sure there are bad examples - many journeys on Sundays in particular are uncomfortable - but I've also had many journeys where I've had plenty of room, a nice atmosphere, and comfort. The difference between standard and first is that first guarantees you (or should guarentee you) that; on standard you do take a risk that you'll get the dirty, full, hot, smelly, uncomfortable train that does come along every now and then. Even then, you can generally predict fairly accurately which trains are more likely to be problematic. But the majority of standard class travel is, in my experience (mainly East Coast, TPE, Northern and Cross Country) more than adequate.

 

[Aictos]

A FCC passenger asked FCC yesterday using the online Meet the Directors webchat about the introduction of a policy similar to Chiltern Trains regarding first class, below is the question and answer in full.

Question Number:84
From: Mr Andrew Stock

Why not follow Chiltern's Trains (One of the UK's most liked train companies) lead and remove first class accomdation.

Thank you for your question.

The first class debate is an interesting one and Chiltern's model of removing first class accommodation is certainly one method of increasing capacity - but only to a limited extent.

On the other hand, first class is valued by many of our customers and as long as this is the case it is unlikely that we will consider removing this facility. On out Great Northern route, the Cambridge and Peterborough capacity studies have delivered 15% more peak time seats which on the Thameslink route, we have successfully reduced the number of planned 4 car peak workings. There is more to do as part of the Thameslink programme where from 2011 we will see some 12 car trains in operation.

 

[jon0844]

Did you see the question about the level crossings, where someone said that they supported people jumping red lights because they come on so far in advance of the train passing?

I am surprised FCC didn't make a real big deal of that and say there is never any justification to do so, and that some trains can pass within seconds.

However, it does show that people have no appreciation of the risks and just think that it's worth taking the risk to avoid being held up for a few minutes.