First class obsolete?

[stut]

However the "front cabin" on BA is nothing more than a middle seat that folds away and a curtain. For food you get two individually foil-wrapped crisps. When it isn't being used as Club Europe it's just normal economy, you don't get a bigger seat and you don't get more legroom.

That empty middle seat is a huge benefit, though, to the broad-shouldered among us, and those who have to work on board. And the food can be decent on longer routes.

These things may seem trivial, but think about it in terms of what the passenger's day looks like. You're up before 4am to catch a 6:30 or 7am flight. Priority access through the airport is important here. You get on board, and need to ensure you're properly briefed for the day ahead - you also get some breakfast, which is great, that's extra time in bed.

You work a full day on a client/branch/head office site. Whatever. Get back to the airport, and again, get on the plane as soon as possible, so you're maximising your time onsite. You'll probably turn up at the airport an hour before departure, tops.

You can write up what's been discussed and decided that day, send off a bunch of emails for later transmission, and get everything tied up. You get your evening meal on the flight, which happens to be right across your mealtime. That way, when you get home at 9pm, you've at least got a little time to spend with your partner and unwind.

Personally, I can't type on a laptop with 3-across seating (my shoulders are wider than that already). Sure, you can get food at the airport, but you often don't have much time and don't know the airport at all well. So those little touches mean a lot to an absolutely exhausting day.

However, it's been a long time since I was afforded such luxuries! So I fly at less unsociable hours, stay the night before, etc, which probably costs the company as much in terms of time and accommodation, but looks different on the report. Hey-ho.

Also, do bear in mind that a large proportion of those travelling short-haul business class are doing either a) as part of a route deal that gives them a guaranteed upgrade from flexible fare or b) as part of a long-haul itinerary.

 

[AlterEgo]

However the "front cabin" on BA is nothing more than a middle seat that folds away and a curtain. For food you get two individually foil-wrapped crisps. When it isn't being used as Club Europe it's just normal economy, you don't get a bigger seat and you don't get more legroom.

True, except the food - usually it's a salad, or small two-course meal with free alcohol. There is also more personal service as the crew to passenger ratio is much more favourable.

Other than that, it sounds like First Class on a lot of UK TOCs.

 

[boxy321]

WCML does have 3rd class. It's called London Midland.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

WCML does have 3rd class. It's called London Midland.

I was unaware that London Midland operated any services with ex-Merseyrail Class 142 Pacers, but do admit that the Coventry to Nuneaton line where a certain "unit that dare not say its name" is supposed to be running looks to fall into their remit....:roll:

 

[les.]

I enjoy travelling First Class occasionally. I agree that it could be scrapped on some routes but not on Inter City routes.

You can get First Class tickets quite reasonably too if you book well in advance. I'm heading up to The Scottish Highlands for a week on Monday and have first class tickets from Doncaster to Edinburgh Waverley for only £22 (with my railcard). The first class service on VTEC is superb too and was only about a fiver dearer than standand class. Also travelling back first class the following Sunday. Should be even better value too as trains are being re-routed via Carlisle as there are engineering works in the Berwick area.

 

[All Line Rover]

WCML does have 3rd class. It's called London Midland.

Some people - particularly those who are claustrophobic and/or suffer from travel sickness - would argue that standard class on Class 350s is superior to standard class on Class 390s or 221s.

London Midland certainly counts as "3rd class" when it comes to fares, however.

 

[boxy321]

Some people - particularly those who are claustrophobic and/or suffer from travel sickness - would argue that standard class on Class 350s is superior to standard class on Class 390s or 221s.

London Midland certainly counts as "3rd class" when it comes to fares, however.

Having stood all the way from Cov to Euston once with them you get what you pay for.

Why do people cram into VTWC from Brum when they could get Chiltern instead for less?

 

[All Line Rover]

Having stood all the way from Cov to Euston once with them you get what you pay for.

Why do people cram into VTWC from Brum when they could get Chiltern instead for less?

And during the late evening (after 10pm) Chiltern Railways, surprisingly, offer a shorter journey time.

 

[Hellfire]

I believe it's only an offence to 'remain' in First Class, if no appropriate ticket is held. Walking through First without stopping to admire the view is fine.

On Virgin West Coast there is a sign at the entrance to FC stating that only passengers with FC tickets are permitted beyond that point. That includes the vestibule. It's supposed to deter people with Standard Class tickets walking down to the front of the train on the approach to Euston which can be a real nuisance

 

[All Line Rover]

On Virgin West Coast there is a sign at the entrance to FC stating that only passengers with FC tickets are permitted beyond that point. That includes the vestibule. It's supposed to deter people with Standard Class tickets walking down to the front of the train on the approach to Euston which can be a real nuisance

Though the trains operated by VTWC are not multiple units. And a passenger won't be chastised if they walk through first class to seek the guard.

 

[gsnedders]

On Virgin West Coast there is a sign at the entrance to FC stating that only passengers with FC tickets are permitted beyond that point. That includes the vestibule. It's supposed to deter people with Standard Class tickets walking down to the front of the train on the approach to Euston which can be a real nuisance

Personally what I find annoying on VTWC is people who show up two minutes prior to departure just being told to get on in coach K and having to get on in First Class and walk through its whole length, often with overly large suitcases that struggle to fit through the FC aisles!

 

[NSE]

Though the trains operated by VTWC are not multiple units. And a passenger won't be chastised if they walk through first class to seek the guard.

I think you'll find they're entirely Multiple Unit :P

 

[fowler9]

An interesting (or maybe not so) aside. A friend of mine (Doing a bit better than me) is flying internationally tonight and getting put up in a hotel rather than travelling in the morning and being forced to work while traveling at a crazy hour.He will be working on arrival like but he prefers it to starting the day on some mad early doors journey. It doesn't work out at much of a cost difference because he isn't trying to get a peak business commute service.

 

[All Line Rover]

I think you'll find they're entirely Multiple Unit :P

Quite right, but the meaning is clear.

 

[Starmill]

I simply say that people have different responsibilities in life and that they change over time. You may be free to book jollies well in advance. Many people are not. Some people have access to the bank of mummy and daddy or a railcard or decent disposable income via reduced responsibility. Some people do not. That simple concept is something you seem unable to grasp.

What does any of this have to do with First Class? My parents never give me any money, not that it has anything to do with you - or indeed First Class! If I can grasp that your life has responsibilities in it that you dislike (which I can, easily, I'm just ignoring the point because you're using such bad manners) or not has nothing at all to do with railways.

If you are able to find those cheap fares and book well in advance bully for you. Enjoy it while you can. However, do try to see it from the other side of the fence. One day that might be you.

You brought this up! I am enjoying it, and why not? How I spend my time - and how you choose to spend yours - has nothing to do with if the train ought have First Class! You're right, that is the way life goes - but when that happens I'll get on with it and not moan endlessly that I don't get to go in First Class, if that is what happens which I rather imagine it won't.

I am also not sure I asked for help but I will tell you what: Next time I am free to go to a football match at the other end of the country at 48 hours notice you find me a first class fare for the same as your £6.50 then we will talk. I will send you a PM.........

I don't go to football matches so I can't help. Actually, if there were a calendar that had a list of all major sporting and events throughout the country and where they are that would be great, so I would know when to avoid travelling.

 

[cjp]

Is it time to abolish first class? It could be argued that this would solve some of the capacity problems. It is often very expensive compared to standard. Often not really that much different. With the general trend towards casual attitudes in society, some might say it's time for class to be done with. Any opinions?

I had not been able to buy a decently priced first class ticket up to Scotland I would have flown despite the time taken to get to and check in at the airport.
I have reached the stage in life that I am no longer prepared to be stuck in seat for hours without there being a comfortable seat awaiting me when I board and ideally refreshments and WiFi.
So keep First Class

 

[DarloRich]

I had not been able to buy a decently priced first class ticket up to Scotland I would have flown despite the time taken to get to and check in at the airport.
I have reached the stage in life that I am no longer prepared to be stuck in seat for hours without there being a comfortable seat awaiting me when I board and ideally refreshments and WiFi.
So keep First Class

I often fly up to Glasgow to see the parents. It is often cheaper ( at least on short notice) and works out quicker for me as they live on that side of Glasgow. I find the service decent if a little cramped but for a short flight it is fine. I fly from Birmingham as it is easier for me to access than Luton and very rarely do i have any issues.

What does any of this have to do with First Class? My parents never give me any money, not that it has anything to do with you - or indeed First Class! If I can grasp that your life has responsibilities in it that you dislike (which I can, easily, I'm just ignoring the point because you're using such bad manners) or not has nothing at all to do with railways.

I am very happy with my life thank you very much. I have a good job, friends, family, partner, fulfilling relationships -)), exciting opportunities, my own home, a manageable debt level (as long as I remain employed!) and a little bit of spare cash to spend.

I am, I suspect, slightly older than you and have had exposure to more "life experiences" than you. I suspect you are a student or recent graduate who lives at home and is single and is perhaps deciding what career to follow having graduated That is a great position to be in but it wont last. I loved it when i was in that position. However, when you have to stand on your own feet and cut those apron strings you will understand.

(Alternatively I could simply prove the point that assumptions, on both parts, can be terribly wrong!)

You brought this up! I am enjoying it, and why not? How I spend my time - and how you choose to spend yours - has nothing to do with if the train ought have First Class! You're right, that is the way life goes - but when that happens I'll get on with it and not moan endlessly that I don't get to go in First Class, if that is what happens which I rather imagine it won't.

I hope you are enjoying it as it can be a very nice way to travel. I don't seem to be moaning, simply pointing out that you are in a lucky position of being free of responsibility and able to plan your trips out well in advance and secure good fares, especially on first class travel. That is really good, however for the majority of the population that freedom isn't available. Many people will decide they want a trip out at relatively short notice ( meaning a few days) and wont be able to secure those fares.

I don't go to football matches so I can't help. Actually, if there were a calendar that had a list of all major sporting and events throughout the country and where they are that would be great, so I would know when to avoid travelling.

Actually you can help by using your skills to secure me that £6.50 fare on 48 hours notice. The reason for travel surely doesn't matter. However, I am sure you know it isn't possible. Admitting that would undermine your position.

Clearly, that doesn't really have anything to do with the obsolescence or otherwise of first class but I like to exercise my right of reply when attacked.

Personally I don't have an issue with first class. I have used it before ( often as an upgrade when the train back from Manchester is full Manure fans) or when ( rarely now) the fare is cheaper than standard. The extra space and comfort are most welcome especially on a Virgin train and the snack box is simply divine.

However for the majority first class travel is a treat and not the norm, despite what some posters here may think.

EDIT - unless I am egregiously assaulted I will leave it there.

 

[Deepgreen]

Only certain railways? I thought the whole aim of modern rolling stock was to turn standard class back into third class.

'First class' on Southern's 377/6s, 7s and 387s is the new third class!

 

[swt class 450]

Is it time to abolish first class? It could be argued that this would solve some of the capacity problems. It is often very expensive compared to standard. Often not really that much different. With the general trend towards casual attitudes in society, some might say it's time for class to be done with. Any opinions?

I personally think yes it is time to get rid of 1st class. I really dont see the point of it. On most trains it is exactly identical to std class (except for head cloths on seats). It is also normally completly empty (or just used by fare evaders). I think all trains should be std class only.

 

[Deepgreen]

I personally think yes it is time to get rid of 1st class. I really dont see the point of it. On most trains it is exactly identical to std class (except for head cloths on seats). It is also normally completly empty (or just used by fare evaders). I think all trains should be std class only.

Actually, to be fair, only on some trains, not most. I happen favour the retention of first, given the normally (on so-called 'commuter' routes anyway) very small proportion of a train that carries it. If crowding is such a problem regularly, that suggests that the overall service provision is lacking, rather than the solution being to make the few first class seats permanently available to all.

 

[Lee_Again]

I personally think yes it is time to get rid of 1st class. I really dont see the point of it. On most trains it is exactly identical to std class (except for head cloths on seats). It is also normally completly empty (or just used by fare evaders). I think all trains should be std class only.

You need to get out more. 1st Class is nothing like you describe except for most commuter type trains. Long distance travel with Virgin (both), GWR and some noteable others is far superior in 1st compared to cramped Std.

Daft full fare pricing needs addressing but Advance fares are very reasonable, sometimes even the night before. £120 1st return London to Scotalnd is very reasonable and often available at short notice. Forget southbound earlies, or mid afternoon from London and bargains can be had.

 

[Starmill]

I am very happy with my life thank you very much.

Good. So why the constant complaints that other people have it better than you, and envy of them being in First Class while you're not?

I suspect you are a student or recent graduate who lives at home and is single and is perhaps deciding what career to follow having graduated That is a great position to
I hope you are enjoying it as it can be a very nice way to travel. I don't seem to be moaning, simply pointing out that you are in a lucky position of being free of responsibility and able to plan your trips out well in advance and secure good fares, especially on first class travel. That is really good, however for the majority of the population that freedom isn't available.

None if this is at all relevant to First Class, but have you tried applying for a graduate job recently? It's a pretty terrible time on all fronts.

Many people will decide they want a trip out at relatively short notice ( meaning a few days) and wont be able to secure those fares.

I go on loads of short notice trips. I'm thinking about a Manchester to Brighton return tomorrow and I'll buy the tickets in the morning. Try again.

Actually you can help by using your skills to secure me that £6.50 fare on 48 hours notice. The reason for travel surely doesn't matter. However, I am sure you know it isn't possible. Admitting that would undermine your position.

Nope, I always avoid football because it's a sure fire way to expensive tickets.

Personally I don't have an issue with first class.

Yeah, right. Of course not That's exactly why you can't resist being opinionated about it at every opportunity.

 

[DarloRich]

Good. So why the constant complaints that other people have it better than you, and envy of them being in First Class while you're not?

I am not envious I simply point out how things are different for the majority.

None if this is at all relevant to First Class, but have you tried applying for a graduate job recently? It's a pretty terrible time on all fronts.

Do you think it was any different when I applied for my post graduate job which was a professional training contract? The numbers who were successful were low v numbers graduating . It was a very stressful time and I attended a lot of interviews until I was successful.

However I guess it depends what you mean. Corporate Grad schemes are heavily over subscribed and so they can be very choosy about candidates. There are plenty of jobs for graduates and I am sure it will come. You can obviously string two sentences together and argue a position cogently - which is miles better than some grads I interview!

I go on loads of short notice trips. I'm thinking about a Manchester to Brighton return tomorrow and I'll buy the tickets in the morning. Try again.

For a "normal" without a railcard or special knowledge that is a £220+ ticket on that sort of notice.

Nope, I always avoid football because it's a sure fire way to expensive tickets.

Luckily for my team there are few people going and we play in some very odd places

Yeah, right. Of course not That's exactly why you can't resist being opinionated about it at every opportunity.

I am opinionated about everything and every opportunity!

 

[Senex]

I personally think yes it is time to get rid of 1st class. I really dont see the point of it. On most trains it is exactly identical to std class (except for head cloths on seats). It is also normally completly empty (or just used by fare evaders). I think all trains should be std class only.

Do you travel on the East Coast line? First class has always been well filled, and it offers more space and better views than standard class as well the "complimentary" offering. Some people want and are prepared to pay for more comfort.

 

[quantinghome]

A few observations:

1. These discussions can sometimes turn into arguments about 'social class'. However, most other European countries (many of whom don't have as much of a conscious class divide, e.g. France) are perfectly happy to have different classes on their trains.
2. We don't expect a uniform provision in most other areas - air travel, cars, food, hotels etc. Why the fuss about trains?
3. I guess an answer to (2) is space. This has been addressed already on some services by increasing the proportion of standard to first carriages. Ultimately, packed trains are not going to be sorted out by removing first class, particularly on commuter trains where the congestion is greatest and first class provisional minimal of not there at all. There may be a case for removing first class on (say) Transpennine where it takes up a disproportionate amount of space, but that's more down to poor design of the existing units than the general principle of first class.
4. Passenger railways need investment, sourced by a combination of government subsidy and fare income. Removing first class would lose the railways a source of income, which would either reduce investment or increase subsidy (read tax) to make good the shortfall.

 

[47802]

Personally I would retain for intercity and longer distances only. So I would retain for East and West Coast Franchises but would axe it from LM, retain it on the GWR 800's only, Axe on GTR except maybe Gatwick Express but 2+1 seating would be a min requirement of 1st Class, also axe it from South Eastern and SWT except maybe the Weymouth and Exeter routes.

I would also consider axing it from the shorter distance TPE routes so I would probably axe it on the 185's.

In Scotland 1st class would be HST only, plus maybe Edinburgh - Glasgow.

Of course all the Franchise are based on current and planned 1st/Standard configs so these thing could only really change at a franchise renewal.

 

[Steveman]

Although it's hardly an improvement to pleb class, keep it and in fact have super-first so us rich people can be totally isolated from the more undesirable elements of the travelling public.

 

[Lankyline]

Personally I don't like having my knees in my face when I sit down in standard class, or having a constant elbow battle with the person next to me everytime I want to move a couple of inches in my seat ! Similar experience when I have flown pig pen class, except I can at least stop the annoying prat in front of me from reclining his seat !

So when I occasionally have the cash I upgrade and for people like me (6ft 4) the extra space and legroom is a godsend, not to mention helping to reduce the risk of DVT on longer trips. To propose abolishing first class is a stupid idea that discriminates against taller people and favours short people's idea of equality

 

[Clip]

Its worth paying for the extra leg room for sure - it all depends on what price people will pay for comfort.

 

[Spamcan81]

So the best part of a month ago. I want to go to the match on Saturday but wont know until Thursday or Friday if I can go. That is the real world for many. One day you will find that out.

I will also point out you are making a short journey between two stations for which demand for first class will be limited, certainly on a point to point measure and no doubt you hold a railcard.

Welcome to the real world. No different to booking flights or long distance coach journeys. The nearer to the date of departure you book, the dearer the cost of a seat.
I'm one of those awful rail card holders so book first class if the price is attractive - not always so. At 6' 4" tall I'm not a small bloke so the extra room is most welcome. Sometimes cheap fares are available quite late in the day, even the day before travelling so don't always have to plan weeks in advance.