First class obsolete?

[Tio Terry]

My daily commute - SWT Class 455 - has no First Class so I don't get the choice anyway. If it was 450's with First Class I would pay extra to have a much better chance of a seat! But it is difficult to manage on suburban commuter routes where it can become an impossibility to move through carriages to check tickets.

The Waterloo-Reading service is a good example, I had to regularly use that for about 6 months. After leaving Clapham Junction is was absolutely packed until Esher - where all the Students got off - there was no way anybody would have made it through that train to check tickets.

 

[TimG]

Is it time to abolish first class? It could be argued that this would solve some of the capacity problems. It is often very expensive compared to standard. Often not really that much different. With the general trend towards casual attitudes in society, some might say it's time for class to be done with. Any opinions?

only keep it if it is so profitable it offsets more than its share of rail subsidies.

 

[6Gman]

I favour retaining it. Indeed as I've stated before, putting on local trains as it was once. In proportion though. Otherwise a lot of space is wasted. I think the price differential should be in line with the difference in furnishings and comfort. Plus a bit to make sure only serious travellers tend to use it. Maybe even making first class quiet class by default. Perhaps one coach in three to standard. Just about all trains had it once.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I was at sea then .

What is a "serious traveller"?

More to the point, what is an "unserious traveller"?

 

[Starmill]

sadly for those of us without the freedom to plan our journeys 17 weeks in advance this is something we can only aspire to. The real world and the responsibilities that come with it can be a real pita.

As for the Euston run you get a better seat, a lamp, free wifi, more leg room, some free snacks, drinks and a guaranteed window view. You get none of that in cattle. The seat would be nice sometimes...............

My time of booking was 13/08/16 at 2311

 

[grumblingalong]

I tend to have had some difficulty in following your economic proposal of "halving the first-class fare to make it properly expensive"..:roll:

For clarity and to save you any further mental distress, the halving referred to capacity rather than fares.

 

[J-2739]

Alternatively, is it time to introduce third class? Or do certain railways already have that?

Ewwww.....:-x

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The business model of airlines like BA and all the long-haul airlines is based on premium class travel, mostly business class.
On some airlines there are four different classes (first, business, premium economy and economy) with different levels of service.
Basically it keeps the airline going, as nobody makes any money out of economy class any more.
Inter-city rail operators like Virgin, GWR etc aspire to the same kind of business model.
Among other reasons, first class is not regulated by the DfT.
Apart from people regularly prepared to pay a premium fare, there is money to be made from upgrades and "treating yourself".
Choice is generally a good thing.

 

[DarloRich]

My time of booking was 13/08/16 at 2311

So the best part of a month ago. I want to go to the match on Saturday but wont know until Thursday or Friday if I can go. That is the real world for many. One day you will find that out.

I will also point out you are making a short journey between two stations for which demand for first class will be limited, certainly on a point to point measure and no doubt you hold a railcard.

 

[Senex]

Alternatively, is it time to introduce third class? Or do certain railways already have that?

Only certain railways? I thought the whole aim of modern rolling stock was to turn standard class back into third class.

 

[Starmill]

I think you're going to have to concede the point DarloRich, it's an Aberdeen to London train so demand for First Class certainly isn't limited. It's not a railcard discounted fare, and less than 4 weeks is a pretty reasonable advance booking window. Fundamentally you must accept that you can get better deals and do more trips but you have to be prepared to do the legwork to get them.

Or at least, you don't have the right to complain that you can't get cheap fares without making an effort.

 

[DarloRich]

I think you're going to have to concede the point DarloRich, it's an Aberdeen to London train so demand for First Class certainly isn't limited. It's not a railcard discounted fare, and less than 4 weeks is a pretty reasonable advance booking window. Fundamentally you must accept that you can get better deals and do more trips but you have to be prepared to do the legwork to get them.

Or at least, you don't have the right to complain that you can't get cheap fares without making an effort.

The point you are unwilling to consider is that many people.dont get 3/4 weeks notice on being able to make a trip - they get 48 hours - you may be lucky and be in a position where your life allows you to decide in things weeks in advance - many of us are not so your wonderful fares and all that leg work simply aren't an option

As I said when you get real world responsibilities towards families, children, mortgages and putting food on the table you.might appreciate your freedom. Until then.......

 

[NSE]

Eh, I hate it when people say First is 'for serious travellers' or 'business types only'. Most of my first class travel is done with some good advances when I can take the time to plan a trip, but I've done it before on a walk up. When am I not a serious traveller? If a rail company is offering an advance or a deal then I'll accept it. I also accept that if I was to walk up to Euston or Kings Cross at 18:00 on a Friday and demand a £10 First Class fare to Leeds because 'I once got it on a deal on a Saturday with a rail card and I booked it in advance and used some railway vouchers' I'll be told where to go.

 

[AlterEgo]

The point you are unwilling to consider is that many people.dont get 3/4 weeks notice on being able to make a trip - they get 48 hours - you may be lucky and be in a position where your life allows you to decide in things weeks in advance - many of us are not so your wonderful fares and all that leg work simply aren't an option

As I said when you get real world responsibilities towards families, children, mortgages and putting food on the table you.might appreciate your freedom. Until then.......

All true, but:

I don't understand what this has to do with whether First Class is an obsolete concept or not...?

 

[leightonbd]

Obsolete is clearly not correct. Obsolete implies (largely) superseded by newer methods. Like a gramophone. FC is still widely used.

Whether FC is inappropriate on certain trains is a good debating point. I would strongly support an FC offering for, say, London - Edinburgh. For Glasgow - Edinburgh I question the need, and the loadings I observe are low. Whether the revenue yield is greater with that configuration and occupancy, I wonder. Edinburgh - Aberdeen does, I believe, get better loadings.

So - is there a distance cutoff below which FC space might be better used (assuming someone will bear the cost of reconfiguring units)? A bit like the contraction in club class offering in short-haul flying in the last 10-15 years. Look how many UK and European business travellers are happy to use easyjet, Ryanair, Norwegian etc.

 

[DarloRich]

All true, but:

I don't understand what this has to do with whether First Class is an obsolete concept or not...?

not much

 

[Starmill]

Oh of course, I see. So your problem doesn't have anything to do with the actual train fares or availability of accommodation on the trains, just that there are things you don't like about your life, so you think that being bitter and patronising about me and what you think (you have no idea, mind) about mine will somehow help you. I doubt this line of reasoning will help you get any better deal in the future!

 

[fowler9]

I reckon there is a place for First Class. Even as a big lefty I think people should have a choice as to what they spend their money on.

 

[DarloRich]

Oh of course, I see. So your problem doesn't have anything to do with the actual train fares or availability of accommodation on the trains, just that there are things you don't like about your life, so you think that being bitter and patronising about me and what you think (you have no idea, mind) about mine will somehow help you. I doubt this line of reasoning will help you get any better deal in the future!

that isn't the case at all - I notice that you cant deal with any form of criticism or suggestion that another viewpoint may exist.

I simply say that people have different responsibilities in life and that they change over time. You may be free to book jollies well in advance. Many people are not. Some people have access to the bank of mummy and daddy or a railcard or decent disposable income via reduced responsibility. Some people do not. That simple concept is something you seem unable to grasp.

If you are able to find those cheap fares and book well in advance bully for you. Enjoy it while you can. However, do try to see it from the other side of the fence. One day that might be you.

I am also not sure I asked for help but I will tell you what: Next time I am free to go to a football match at the other end of the country at 48 hours notice you find me a first class fare for the same as your £6.50 then we will talk. I will send you a PM.........

 

[AlterEgo]

Obsolete is clearly not correct. Obsolete implies (largely) superseded by newer methods. Like a gramophone. FC is still widely used.

Whether FC is inappropriate on certain trains is a good debating point. I would strongly support an FC offering for, say, London - Edinburgh. For Glasgow - Edinburgh I question the need, and the loadings I observe are low. Whether the revenue yield is greater with that configuration and occupancy, I wonder. Edinburgh - Aberdeen does, I believe, get better loadings.

So - is there a distance cutoff below which FC space might be better used (assuming someone will bear the cost of reconfiguring units)? A bit like the contraction in club class offering in short-haul flying in the last 10-15 years. Look how many UK and European business travellers are happy to use easyjet, Ryanair, Norwegian etc.

There hasn't been a contraction in business class flying in Europe. Try taking BA to Gothenburg, as I did recently, and observe a full front cabin of eight rows. There's plenty of yield there. BA's Club Europe is usually very well subscribed for a number of reasons too complex to go into now. Even on their short flights to Jersey!

What low cost carriers do is attract people into flying who ordinarily couldn't afford it, or who do so infrequently.

 

[fowler9]

There hasn't been a contraction in business class flying in Europe. Try taking BA to Gothenburg, as I did recently, and observe a full front cabin of eight rows. There's plenty of yield there. BA's Club Europe is usually very well subscribed for a number of reasons too complex to go into now. Even on their short flights to Jersey!

What low cost carriers do is attract people into flying who ordinarily couldn't afford it, or who do so infrequently.

Yeah business class flying is alive and well. Sadly I haven't experienced it. Ha ha. As you said though budget airlines have attracted more people to travel who simply wouldn't have flown. They have taken some business away from legacy carriers but hey ho. The legacy carriers loss is my gain.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

yes! shoot them all

Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Beneath its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

There is a purpose to and requirement for FC. However, it is not for railcard warriors to travel about for £12.50. It is for business types prepared to pay a premium for an enhanced and exclusive service. It earns good monies for intercity TOCS.

Even Mao had distinctions in train travel ('hard' and 'soft' class).
Sometimes people like a little more comfort (or maybe a seat even!) and you don't need to book in advance at weekends - just pay the supplement which on some routes is quite reasonable (SWT and the Anglia route for instance).

I'd like to see more variation in carriages (such as quiet/noisy/family/food/drunks/pets/karaoke etc) so people can travel in a more ambient environment to suit their nature or how they feel with the fares reflecting the additional cost of any facilities provided.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah business class flying is alive and well. .

Hopefully we will not be paying for business class between the UK and Brussels much longer.

 

[Agent_c]

Is it time to abolish first class? It could be argued that this would solve some of the capacity problems. It is often very expensive compared to standard.

The extra revenue helps fund teh railway

Often not really that much different. With the general trend towards casual attitudes in society, some might say it's time for class to be done with. Any opinions?

Don't see what abolishing first class has got to do with that. There's nothing segregationist about it. If you want to buy a first class ticket and think you'll get benefit from the extra features you're welcome to pay for it. I do on longer journeys because I like the better seat.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There hasn't been a contraction in business class flying in Europe. Try taking BA to Gothenburg, as I did recently, and observe a full front cabin of eight rows. There's plenty of yield there.

However the "front cabin" on BA is nothing more than a middle seat that folds away and a curtain. For food you get two individually foil-wrapped crisps. When it isn't being used as Club Europe it's just normal economy, you don't get a bigger seat and you don't get more legroom.

 

[HowardGWR]

Just a thought on ticket checking in first class, mentioned earlier. Could not First coach sections be only made enterable with a ticket electronically marked in the same way that one gets a key card in hotels? The first class loos could perhaps also only operate with such a card.

 

[Mordac]

Just a thought on ticket checking in first class, mentioned earlier. Could not First coach sections be only made enterable with a ticket electronically marked in the same way that one gets a key card in hotels? The first class loos could perhaps also only operate with such a card.

No, because sometimes one wants to walk through the first class coach, like on 350/4s, to get to other standard class sections.

 

[physics34]

.deleted

 

[misterredmist]

First Class is a great option , we use it when we can for personal trips , otherwise we'll go 'steerage'....... I know which I prefer.....

I am allowed to do my business travel first class on about 4 trips a year, but I'm usually busy working on the train and I do think FC is the place to be when one needs to work.....however, I appreciate I am not picking up the tab on such trips.....

 

[matt_world2004]

No, because sometimes one wants to walk through the first class coach, like on 350/4s, to get to other standard class sections.

I thought this was technically was a no no especially as aga were pf'ing people for doing this.

 

[Merseysider]

If I come into funds I shall buy my local service and do some stuff with it.

Do please elaborate?

Edit: Oh, you're banned so you can't. Oops.

I thought this was technically was a no no especially as aga were pf'ing people for doing this.

I believe it's only an offence to 'remain' in First Class, if no appropriate ticket is held. Walking through First without stopping to admire the view is fine.

 

[HH]

The extra revenue helps fund teh railway

This is arguable. If First Class is carrying fresh air most of the day and Standard is crowding people off then it could be losing money...

It's why there are 'Weekend First' tickets, but that's only the tip of the iceberg.