First class is 'all reserved' EMR

[m_m]

Hi all,

Just had this this morning on the 0840 long eaton to St Pancras. Amazed they are allowed to sell every seat?

I feel sorry for the staff as at least one of them was getting some grief over it. The silly thing was a load of the reserved seats were empty, so they were telling people prior to boarding that first was full, then repeating this on board, but there were seats...

Is there a rule somewhere about proportions of seats that have to be reservable or is it unlimited?

We need those new Emr trains!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Just had this this morning on the 0840 long eaton to St Pancras. Amazed they are allowed to sell every seat?
...
Is there a rule somewhere about proportions of seats that have to be reservable or is it unlimited?

Don't believe so, in fact, EMR mark most of their Intercity trains (including the train you got) as requiring reserved seats, and is likely the intended outcome from the use of that setting (which is useful for sleeper trains).

I feel sorry for the staff as at least one of them was getting some grief over it. The silly thing was a load of the reserved seats were empty, so they were telling people prior to boarding that first was full, then repeating this on board, but there were seats...

This is the problem with the compulsory reservations, reservations have to be given if buying through something with an itinerary (So basically anything but an in-person ticket office), even on flexible tickets, so people will buy the ticket with a reservation on another service and get that one, leaving an empty reservation somewhere else.

 

[Qwerty133]

Hi all,

Just had this this morning on the 0840 long eaton to St Pancras. Amazed they are allowed to sell every seat?

I feel sorry for the staff as at least one of them was getting some grief over it. The silly thing was a load of the reserved seats were empty, so they were telling people prior to boarding that first was full, then repeating this on board, but there were seats...

Is there a rule somewhere about proportions of seats that have to be reservable or is it unlimited?

We need those new Emr trains!

I suspect this may actually be a case of one group hiring the entirety of first class rather than a large amount of individual reservations.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This is why compulsory reservations are becoming increasingly necessary, despite protestations from people on this forum.

I'm sure a few people won't turn up for their seat, but particularly in first class, long distance services genuinely are pretty close to capacity, especially services which are attractive to leisure passengers. Better yield management strategies are resulting in better seats occupation.

GWR, LNER and EMR are particularly busy operators in first. Avanti is too, although differs slightly due to the Standard Premium coach, which is also usually well occupied.

 

[alistairlees]

EMR intercity services are mandatory reservation on Saturday 31st August and Sunday 1st September, but not on other weekends (nor on any weekdays) that I can see. Is there something special about this weekend? I can't see any mention of it on their website.

 

[43066]

EMR intercity services are mandatory reservation on Saturday 31st August and Sunday 1st September, but not on other weekends (nor on any weekdays) that I can see. Is there something special about this weekend? I can't see any mention of it on their website.

I believe this was due to the LNER industrial action.

This has now been cancelled but too late to avoid disruption, as discussed elsewhere, hence it has made sense to leave it in place.

 

[800001]

EMR intercity services are mandatory reservation on Saturday 31st August and Sunday 1st September, but not on other weekends (nor on any weekdays) that I can see. Is there something special about this weekend? I can't see any mention of it on their website.

LNER industrial action cancelled, but still running the strike timetable with a couple of extra services.

 

[RGM654]

Was the train manager refusing to allow people with valid tickets to sit in seats that were reserved but not occupied? If so that seems remarkably dog-in-the-manger.

 

[bahnause]

This is why compulsory reservations are becoming increasingly necessary, despite protestations from people on this forum.

Adjusting capacity to demand is not an option?

(Written from a 400m long instead of the usual 200m long train from a popular holiday region back to the city, with additional extra trains running alongside).

 

[dosxuk]

Adjusting capacity to demand is not an option?

EMR don't realistically have enough stock to run their day-to-day operation, let alone adding extra capacity as needed.

 

[greyman42]

Was the train manager refusing to allow people with valid tickets to sit in seats that were reserved but not occupied? If so that seems remarkably dog-in-the-manger.

Surely no train manager would be that stupid.

 

[Adam Williams]

This is why compulsory reservations are becoming increasingly necessary, despite protestations from people on this forum.

Misuse of the flag is exactly why so many pointless seats reservations are made in the first place on flexible walk-up tickets, though. RDG in their accreditation requirements are very clear that you shouldn't automatically make reservations for passengers unless they actively ask for one because it wastes capacity - the TOCs have thoroughly ridden roughshod all over this principle by setting this flag on their timetabled services.

Couple this with retailers not universally giving passengers the ability to adjust or cancel reservations after booking (not entirely the retailer's fault, the reservation system doesn't exactly make this a trivial thing to offer, you'll note that even LNER have had to use a bodge to allow their "digital flexing" to work behind the scenes), and you have a recipe for exactly this problem.

Maybe this problem doesn't exist in a world where you only ever sell Advances, as if it was an airline on wheels, but we don't live in that world.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Don't suppose any high-ranking government officials or dignitaries were travelling? That would explain the whole section being made unavailable...

 

[LowLevel]

That particularly train First class is generally full on a Saturday anyway. Unfortunately the allocated unit was 222102 which is a luck of the draw unit - it only has a tiny first class compartment in the composite car, the same as 222101 - fewer than the other 5 car 222s in the fleet.

 

[43066]

RDG in their accreditation requirements are very clear that you shouldn't automatically make reservations for passengers unless they actively ask for one because it wastes capacity - the TOCs have thoroughly ridden roughshod all over this principle by setting this flag on their timetabled services.

In this situation the TOC needs to damp down demand due to anticipated overcrowding. Given that they can’t physically stop ticket sales, what other mechanism is available to them to do that?

The website clearly states you should seek another service if one is marked as full.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2024 ==

That particularly train First class is generally full on a Saturday anyway. Unfortunately the allocated unit was 222102 which is a luck of the draw unit - it only has a tiny first class compartment in the composite car, the same as 222101 - fewer than the other 5 car 222s in the fleet.

I hadn’t noticed that! I assume they simply ran out of first class coaches when they reformed them (some of the others have extra ones which are permanently declassified).

It’ll be easier with the new fleet but, as numbers continue to rise, I have no doubt we will be back in exactly the same position in fairly short order…

 

[Adam Williams]

What other mechanism is available to them to do that?

All operators have access to be able to set-up IPTIS disruption bulletins which supporting retailers (incl. Trainline) will show alongside specified services on their results view.

Retailers can (and do!) implement visual warnings that are surfaced prior to purchase on days known to be particularly bad. This one, for example, would've shown up in the date picker on the forum's ticketing site, and pushed customers who have flexibility to consider travelling on another day or via an alternative route:



If there was going to be a queueing system - and this was communicated in advance, you could warn consumers of that and let them make an informed decision on what to do. I would then simply suspend reservations entirely.

Abusing the mandatory reservations flag is a blunt instrument, there absolutely are alternatives.

 

[43066]

All operators have access to be able to set-up IPTIS disruption bulletins which supporting retailers (incl. Trainline) will show alongside specified services on their results view.

Retailers can (and do!) implement visual warnings that are surfaced prior to purchase on days known to be particularly bad. This one, for example, would've shown up in the date picker on the forum's ticketing site, and pushed customers who have flexibility to consider travelling on another day or via an alternative route:

View attachment 164623

If there was going to be a queueing system - and this was communicated in advance, you could warn consumers of that and let them make an informed decision on what to do. I would then simply suspend reservations entirely.

Abusing the mandatory reservations flag is a blunt instrument, there absolutely are alternatives.

So in this case there will have been warnings via third party retailers. The TOC website also makes it clear they there may be queues, and to look for other trains if the one you’re looking at is marked as full etc. (And AIUI has done so for a while due to the IA, just in the same way as plenty of warning as given of the blockades last week). So I don’t really understand the objection to also marking trains as full as an additional step?

If despite the warnings people turn up and either don’t get a seat, or are denied travel, they can’t say they haven’t been warned!

It’s all very well saying “let the customer make the decision”, but what happens when too many still decide to travel!? The railway is in a uniquely difficult position: any other method of transport could simply stop selling tickets. The railway is unique in that it can literally tell people “we are full, we can’t carry you” yet unlimited numbers of people can still choose to buy tickets and insist on attempting to travel, safe in that knowledge they will receive compensation if delayed etc. So it’s a question of using whatever tools are available to reduce demand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2024 ==

Adjusting capacity to demand is not an option?

(Written from a 400m long instead of the usual 200m long train from a popular holiday region back to the city, with additional extra trains running alongside).

Sadly not. The idea of doubling length of trains is a fantasy given EMR’s rolling stock situation. As you’re no doubt starting to realise lack of capacity is a problem in the UK in general, and on EMR in particular. The new fleet will help with this, for a while at least!

 

[Adam Williams]

It’s all very well saying “let the customer make the decision”, but what happens when too many still decide to travel!? The railway is in a uniquely difficult position: any other method of transport could simply stop selling tickets. The railway is unique in that it can literally tell people “we are full, we can’t carry you” yet unlimited numbers of people can still choose to buy tickets and insist on attempting to travel, safe in that knowledge they will receive compensation if delayed etc. So it’s a question of using whatever tools are available to reduce demand.

My personal view is that I think you should probably lose the right to Delay Repay in circumstances like this, if you're explicitly warned that capacity is limited, a queueing system is in operation and you choose to knowingly try to travel anyway. You should still retain the right to receive an abandoned journey refund if you're ultimately not able to travel at all. I appreciate that this is not how the NRCoT and other legislation is currently structured today, but it seems like it would be a more fair way to approach it.

I am still uncomfortable with preventing people from purchasing tickets at all, particularly when the measures only apply to some retail channels and a subset of customers could purchase tickets anyway, based on where they live, their access to a non-journey-planning TVM / their ability to purchase from a ticket office. There's a risk you're discriminating against customers who might find it more difficult to travel to a TVM due to a physical disability, or perhaps might find it difficult to interact with staff at a ticket office due to a neurological issue by applying these sorts of restrictions to only the web retail channels.

 

[43066]

My personal view is that I think you should probably lose the right to Delay Repay in circumstances like this, if you're explicitly warned that capacity is limited, a queueing system is in operation and you choose to knowingly try to travel anyway. You should still retain the right to receive an abandoned journey refund if you're ultimately not able to travel at all. I appreciate that this is not how the NRCoT and other legislation is currently structured today, but it seems like it would be a more fair way to approach it.

I am still uncomfortable with preventing people from purchasing tickets at all, particularly when the measures only apply to some retail channels and a subset of customers could purchase tickets anyway, based on where they live, their access to a non-journey-planning TVM / their ability to purchase from a ticket office. There's a risk you're discriminating against customers who might find it more difficult to travel to a TVM due to a physical disability, or perhaps might find it difficult to interact with staff at a ticket office due to a neurological issue by applying these sorts of restrictions to only the web retail channels.

Thanks - fully agreed re. delay repay.

You make some good points there re. other methods. Ideally you’d be able to prevent sales via all channels whenever necessary, but no doubt far too complex.

 

[Adam Williams]

Thanks - fully agreed re. delay repay.

You make some good points there re. other methods. Ideally you’d be able to prevent sales via all channels whenever necessary, but no doubt far too complex.

Yeah, I can't see it happening for a while..

Frontline staff very much have my sympathies in needing to deal with the fallout, it's not like STP is really built for the sorts of crowds there are whenever there's disruption elsewhere on the network, either.

 

[bahnause]

The idea of doubling length of trains is a fantasy given EMR’s rolling stock situation. As you’re no doubt starting to realise lack of capacity is a problem in the UK in general, and on EMR in particular. The new fleet will help with this, for a while at least!

Capacity is a problem almost everywhere. However, this does not prevent many European rail TOC from looking for solutions within and outside their own fleets for weekends with high demand on certain routes. Internal fleets are cascaded or rolling stock is exchanged with other TOC in order to be able to provide an appropriate supply.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Capacity is a problem almost everywhere. However, this does not prevent many European rail TOC from looking for solutions within and outside their own fleets for weekends with high demand on certain routes. Internal fleets are cascaded or rolling stock is exchanged with other TOC in order to be able to provide an appropriate supply.

Extra rolling stock would not really assist East Midlands Railway - the main constraint is the length of platforms at St. Pancras, but there is also a shortage of suitable servicing and stabling facilities - the ones that do exist are intensively used.

The "local" EMR services operated by a Class 360 towards Kettering/Corby are busy but not full - the issue is with the InterCity services.