First class in class 700 trains

[AndyY]

I notice that a lot of people accidentally ended up in first class in the new trains running on the Thameslink route.

In the old trains (319, 377), to get to first class, you have to enter through the first door at the front and then go through an internal door.

But in the new trains, the first class covers a larger area so you are immediately in first class if you enter through the first door at the front.

I think it is very easy to get caught out by this, especially if you are tired and not paying attention to your surroundings. There is a "1st" sign at the door, but the writing is small and light in colour, and inside there is no large sign saying that you are in first class.

This morning two poor guys got dragged off by the ticket inspector for being in first class. I hope that they are cut some slack.

Are there any plans to make the signs more prominent, and/or make people aware that you should not board using the first door at the front if you do not have first class ticket?

 

[Hadders]

There isn't really an issue with the 700s. There are first class compartments at each end of the train with a door to separate it from the rest of the train. The compartments have different seats. Normally the rear compartment is declassified so it can be used by standard class ticket holders.

There is an issue with the class 387 trains as the seats are exactly the same as standard class and there isn't a door to separate it from the rest of the train. This has been discussed at length in the Class 387 to GN Thread.

 

[Deepgreen]

I have no sympathy with people who are "caught" in first. It's not hard to check your surroundings and too many people are so detached from the real world by being glued to 'phones, etc., that they have only themselves to blame. The 700s have very clear first class labelling and the rear section is de-classified for the time being anyway.

Try looking at every window, the doors, or the headrests. Not enough?

It's really not difficult to grasp.

 

[theageofthetra]

So just to be clear on every 700/387 operated service on any route is the rear most first class compartment is declassified?- is there a link to anything in writing from GTR confirming this which I could print off? As these units are getting cascaded to more routes I & the mrs are using them now. Thx

 

[Deepgreen]

So just to be clear on every 700/387 operated service on any route is the rear most first class compartment is declassified?- is there a link to anything in writing from GTR confirming this which I could print off? As these units are getting cascaded to more routes I & the mrs are using them now. Thx

Not the 387s. The 700s have the rear (in both directions, changed over at termini) first class section de-classified at present. I don't know why this has been perpetuated - if the stock is now thought to have been specified with too much first class (two half-cars in a 12 car train), I question the planning of the rolling stock if this change has been instigated so soon after introduction!

 

[theironroad]

Not the 387s. The 700s have the rear (in both directions, changed over at termini) first class section de-classified at present. I don't know why this has been perpetuated - if the stock is now thought to have been specified with too much first class (two half-cars in a 12 car train), I question the planning of the rolling stock if this change has been instigated so soon after introduction!

How does this work in practice?

Do staff at Bedford and brighton have to run around removing the stickers that denote it's first class?

 

[theageofthetra]

Not the 387s. The 700s have the rear (in both directions, changed over at termini) first class section de-classified at present. I don't know why this has been perpetuated - if the stock is now thought to have been specified with too much first class (two half-cars in a 12 car train), I question the planning of the rolling stock if this change has been instigated so soon after introduction!

Is there anything in writing e.g a tweet confirming this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not the 387s. The 700s have the rear (in both directions, changed over at termini) first class section de-classified at present. I don't know why this has been perpetuated - if the stock is now thought to have been specified with too much first class (two half-cars in a 12 car train), I question the planning of the rolling stock if this change has been instigated so soon after introduction!

It might simply be so they can always announce "first class is at the front".

 

[Deepgreen]

It might simply be so they can always announce "first class is at the front".

I think the policy (if it is such) is a mess, but the rear first class PIS screens show a message that it is de-classified. As I said, I don't know why this is so, as it suggests a lack of planning of the accommodation in the specification (along with other elements which are said to be going to be retro-fitted soon). I don't know if anything exists aside from this on-train message.

Thameslink's first class policy and signage has been an absolute disaster from the start - every stock they have used has been incredibly poorly-labelled. Only recently have they bothered even to apply a yellow stripe (not the hardest, or most expensive thing to do!) to their blue 377s. Only the 700s have effective signage, and now that has been subverted by the de-classification!

GX's 387/2s are, if anything, even worse, with a very small legend on the outside of the coach, with no other indication at all. To be frank, it's pathetic!

 

[swt class 450]

This is a major problem on many trains in the UK. On most trains 1st class is so similar (or even exactly identical) to std class so it is very hard to tell and is extremely easy to end up sitting in 1st class without realising it. I dont understand why anyone even buys 1st class tickets. On 700s there are some services where 1st class is declassified throughout the train and then some other services where 1st class is declassified at the rear but not the front which all just adds to the confusion. I would love to see 1st class abolished on all trains in the UK but i doubt that will happen anytime soon.

 

[theageofthetra]

This is a major problem on many trains in the UK. On most trains 1st class is so similar (or even exactly identical) to std class so it is very hard to tell and is extremely easy to end up sitting in 1st class without realising it. I dont understand why anyone even buys 1st class tickets. On 700s there are some services where 1st class is declassified throughout the train and then some other services where 1st class is declassified at the rear but not the front which all just adds to the confusion. I would love to see 1st class abolished on all trains in the UK but i doubt that will happen anytime soon.

Would love to see this utter nonsense taken to court by someone. So on which 700 routes are all 1st class declassified? I assume 'metro' routes?

 

[swt class 450]

Would love to see this utter nonsense taken to court by someone. So on which 700 routes are all 1st class declassified? I assume 'metro' routes?

Its only the Brighton / Three Bridges / Gatwick Airport services that have 1st class (only the front section but not the rear section). The Sutton / Wimbledon / Sevenoaks / Orpington / Bromley South services have all 1st class declassified (i know not many 700s work these at the moment but fairly soon they will be 100% worked by 700s).

 

[Hadders]

I have no sympathy with people who are "caught" in first. It's not hard to check your surroundings and too many people are so detached from the real world by being glued to 'phones, etc., that they have only themselves to blame. The 700s have very clear first class labelling and the rear section is de-classified for the time being anyway.

Try looking at every window, the doors, or the headrests. Not enough?

It's really not difficult to grasp.

Have you seen the 1st Class section of the 387s operating on Great Northern - there's absolutely no difference in the seating layout between 1st class and Standard class. There are also confusing labels on some of the doors as pointed out by members of this forum on the 'Class 387 to GN' thread.

This is a major problem on many trains in the UK. On most trains 1st class is so similar (or even exactly identical) to std class so it is very hard to tell and is extremely easy to end up sitting in 1st class without realising it. I dont understand why anyone even buys 1st class tickets. On 700s there are some services where 1st class is declassified throughout the train and then some other services where 1st class is declassified at the rear but not the front which all just adds to the confusion. I would love to see 1st class abolished on all trains in the UK but i doubt that will happen anytime soon.

I disagree. Most trains have different 1st class seating compared to standard )for example Virgin Trains, SWT, GWR HSTs, East Midlands Trains to name a few). Some don't (mainly suburban operators around London).

There is no need to abolish 1st class. Sometimes people want to travel in a little more comfort or have a better environment on a longer journey in which to do some work.

 

[MrCub]

I agree that there is no need to be rid of 1st class on long distance services. I often travel 1st class (and had a lovely 1st 7 Day ALR last year) but on services like Thameslink, it's very odd indeed. The quality of the 'product' is exceptionally poor. Their policy of de-classifying the rear section on 700s makes a mockery of their own service; who would buy 1st class when you can sit in it (at the back) for standard prices? I'm not complaining though; it's a bonus for 'us' in the know, and most people aren't.

 

[Hadders]

I'd say there should be 1st class on outer suburban services eg Bedford to London, Cambridge to London, Brighton to London. These journeys are relatively lengthy.

Inner suburban services can probably do without 1st class and generally don't have it.

The issue for the class 700s is that Thameslink run a mix of outer suburban and inner suburban services. You could split the fleet and allocate some of the 700s to outer suburban services and some to the inners but that would mean less flexibility in the train fleet and more trains would be needed.

I do agree that declassifying one end of the 700s is a bit farcical. Better to have fitted a smaller section in the first place.

 

[JaJaWa]

Is there anything in writing e.g a tweet confirming this?

Loads every day if you have a look...

 

[theageofthetra]

Loads every day if you have a look...

Excellent. Thanks for that.

 

[jon0844]

I think the 700s are quite clear about first class for you to see when in it, but for such a new train with lots of technology, I wonder why the first class signage couldn't have been on eInk displays that could be changed?

Such technology could be used for lots of notices throughout a train too.

Edit: thinking about it, it makes good sense to have first at each end so there will never be an issue with first being at the wrong end, should GTR decide to convert one end to standard - as a potentially flawed solution if it is considered there are too many first class seats.

What should in fact happen is that the signs are changed to say first class in operation when at the front of the train (or similar) if you're going to do it permanently. Now you can always make sure people wanting first stand at the right place on the platform, like those needing the accessible coaches.

Similarly, the 8 coach variant can have whatever wording is necessary to state when both ends are not in use. I do think dynamic displays in the doors could have been perfect to accompany the overhead displays.

 

[rebmcr]

I think the 700s are quite clear about first class for you to see when in it, but for such a new train with lots of technology, I wonder why the first class signage couldn't have been on eInk displays that could be changed?

Such technology could be used for lots of notices throughout a train too.

Edit: thinking about it, it makes good sense to have first at each end so there will never be an issue with first being at the wrong end, should GTR decide to convert one end to standard - as a potentially flawed solution if it is considered there are too many first class seats.

What should in fact happen is that the signs are changed to say first class in operation when at the front of the train (or similar) if you're going to do it permanently. Now you can always make sure people wanting first stand at the right place on the platform, like those needing the accessible coaches.

Similarly, the 8 coach variant can have whatever wording is necessary to state when both ends are not in use. I do think dynamic displays in the doors could have been perfect to accompany the overhead displays.

I'm afraid the Wimbledon Loop exists to scupper all of your plans.

 

[AndyY]

I have no sympathy with people who are "caught" in first. It's not hard to check your surroundings and too many people are so detached from the real world by being glued to 'phones, etc., that they have only themselves to blame.

It is not so easy after a long day at work:
1. no signage on the platform marking the area as first class
2. a small sign at the door saying "1st class", in light colour
3. flooring exactly same colour as standard class
4. seats exactly same colour as standard class (but shape is different)
5. handles of seats exactly same colour as standard class (light blue)
6. no large signage saying first class - you have to check the words on the doors and the headrest on the seats, which are facing away
7. this was a stopping train to Luton where most of the trains have not been upgraded and are still 319s
8. the 2 poor guys who were caught by the ticket inspector were not sitting down, just standing near the door thinking they were in standard class

Had I been tired, I could have easily fallen for it. I have every sympathy.

Compare the signage of class 700 trains to this photograph:
1. clear markings on platform floor (in yellow)
2. bright yellow strip above doors saying "first class", both inside and outside the train
3. seats facing different direction and in different colour

Now I would have no sympathy if somebody on standard class ticket ended up in there.

 

[AndyY]

One unrelated question please: if using Oyster card, is it possible to purchase a PAYG ticket for first class travel? If so how?

 

[The Box Photter]

It is not so easy after a long day at work:
1. no signage on the platform marking the area as first class
2. a small sign at the door saying "1st class", in light colour
3. flooring exactly same colour as standard class
4. seats exactly same colour as standard class (but shape is different)
5. handles of seats exactly same colour as standard class (light blue)
6. no large signage saying first class - you have to check the words on the doors and the headrest on the seats, which are facing away
7. this was a stopping train to Luton where most of the trains have not been upgraded and are still 319s
8. the 2 poor guys who were caught by the ticket inspector were not sitting down, just standing near the door thinking they were in standard class

Had I been tired, I could have easily fallen for it. I have every sympathy.

Compare the signage of class 700 trains to this photograph:
1. clear markings on platform floor (in yellow)
2. bright yellow strip above doors saying "first class", both inside and outside the train
3. seats facing different direction and in different colour

Now I would have no sympathy if somebody on standard class ticket ended up in there.

So you're "too tired" to see the First Class written on the antimacassar on the seat opposite? Or the writing on the windows or the yellow stripe above the windows on the outside?

Being able to sit in relative comfort in the declassified rear section of a class 700 is one of the few "perks" regular Thameslink victims have to sweeten the sourness of the rest of the service on offer.

If one end was permanently declassified, how would you know which end of the platform to stand to enjoy the facility? It would rely on someone making sure that the platform indicators carried an accurate message (which they often don't) or that an announcement is made at staffed stations.

It's much better all round to have the status quo continue because we all know that by standing where the rear of the train will stop gives us the best chance of getting a seat with a table and power point.

In addition I love watching the "casuals" getting on through the read door and trudging through into cattle class because they haven't bothered to do their homework.

 

[Hadders]

1st class isn't available with Oyster or Contactless. 1st class on a 700 is clearly different to standard and the fact that there is a door separating it from standard is a big clue too.

If we were talking about class 387's I'd have a totally different view.

 

[jon0844]

I'm afraid the Wimbledon Loop exists to scupper all of your plans.

When there's no first class at all, it's very easy to show that on signs and inside the train.

But when there is, it's perfect to show it's always at the front in the direction of travel.

 

[Abpj17]

1st class is entirely obvious on the 700s because of the head rest signs.

It's the fact that the rear is declassified is much harder to detect. You can only see it once you're inside the section.

It's intermittent, but sometimes the station screens will say first class at the front, or for the later night services 'standard class only'. If particularly concerned, you can take a picture of these.

(And as Bhox Plotter says - one of the few long suffering commuter perks.)

 

[jon0844]

I used to be quite happy when FCC didn't state a train was declassified. Still didn't stop some services being full once word spread.

700s are far clearer than some stock GTR use. Relying on antimacassars isn't good if first class is almost full, but on a 700 there are plenty of ways to tell.