First Class Fully Occupied

[wellhouse]

Section 31.1 of the National Conditions of Travel stipulates;

'If you have a first class Ticket and the train service you use is shown as offering first class accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first class accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund. The minimum refund to which you will be entitled will be the difference between the price of the first class Ticket purchased and the cheapest valid standard class walk-up fare available on the service you used. You must write to the Train Company to notify them of your claim within 28 days of the date that you travelled.'

Three of us travelled from Huddersfield to Liverpool on First Class Advance tickets that had no Seat Reservations. There were a number of cancellations that day, and as our train was rammed, we had to stand the whole way.

The difference between Senior Railcard Anytime First (£25.80) and Senior Railcard Standard (£20.35) Fares is £5.45, so that is the maximum refund I expected. (There are 18 First and 20 Standard Advance fares, so let's not go there!)

TPE have denied the claim on the grounds that we held no Seat Reservations, but have then sent £10 per ticket in Rail Travel Vouchers as a goodwill gesture.

So a claim denied, and £4.65 each better off than if it had been settled correctly.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Section 31.1 of the National Conditions of Travel stipulates;

'If you have a first class Ticket and the train service you use is shown as offering first class accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first class accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund. The minimum refund to which you will be entitled will be the difference between the price of the first class Ticket purchased and the cheapest valid standard class walk-up fare available on the service you used. You must write to the Train Company to notify them of your claim within 28 days of the date that you travelled.'

Three of us travelled from Huddersfield to Liverpool on First Class Advance tickets that had no Seat Reservations. There were a number of cancellations that day, and as our train was rammed, we had to stand the whole way.

The difference between Senior Railcard Anytime First (£25.80) and Senior Railcard Standard (£20.35) Fares is £5.45, so that is the maximum refund I expected. (There are 18 First and 20 Standard Advance fares, so let's not go there!)

TPE have denied the claim on the grounds that we held no Seat Reservations, but have then sent £10 per ticket in Rail Travel Vouchers as a goodwill gesture.

So a claim denied, and £4.65 each better off than if it had been settled correctly.

The fact that you held no seat reservations is a total irrelevance. When travelling on a service which is timetabled as having first class, you are entitled to either a seat, or a refund of the difference to the equivalent standard fare if no seat is available.

The minimum refund you would be entitled to in these circumstances would be the difference between what you paid and the cheapest walk-up standard single. Personally, I do not think that this is a fair term - it should always be calculated with reference to the equivalent ticket.

Internal guidance released by LNER under FoI shows that it is their policy to issue a refund of the difference between the equivalent first and standard tickets, and they include a table in order to match equivalent first and standard class Advance tiers. I think that is the only fair way to process it, really.

The Advance tier system is identical for First and Standard with TPE so I see no reason why the refund couldn't be calculated on the basis of the equivalent standard class Advance.

However, given the fact that the NRCoT don't black-on-white guarantee you a refund of the difference to the equivalent standard ticket, I think an RTV for £10 per ticket is probably the best outcome you could reasonably hope for.

 

[robbeech]

I think on this occasion the financial outcome was more than acceptable however, the disappointing fact is this conclusion has likely been achieved by error so there will be people worse off with this approach.

 

[najaB]

Personally, I do not think that this is a fair term - it should always be calculated with reference to the equivalent ticket.

How does that work when comparing Advance tickets? It isn't uncommon for the lowest tier of First Class Advances to be available when the lowest tier of Standard Class Advances weren't available (at the time of booking or at all).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

How does that work when comparing Advance tickets? It isn't uncommon for the lowest tier of First Class Advances to be available when the lowest tier of Standard Class Advances weren't available (at the time of booking or at all).

Not the passenger's problem: they booked for a certain "busy-ness" of First and so if they do not receive that, they should be refunded the difference to the equivalent "busy-ness" of Standard, as that is effectively the service they have received if they cannot sit down.

Otherwise there is a perverse incentive for TOCs to sell First APs at prices similar to, or even below, the Standard walkup single price, knowing full well that they will not be able to provide seating for all AP holders and yet will not be liable for any compensation - this is especially the case on "counted place"-only services.

 

[najaB]

Otherwise there is a perverse incentive for TOCs to sell First APs at prices similar to, or even below, the Standard walkup single price, knowing full well that they will not be able to provide seating for all AP holders and yet will not be liable for any compensation - this is especially the case on "counted place"-only services.

This is only the case for counted-place Advances.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This is only the case for counted-place Advances.

No, it is the case even for normal reservable-place Advances. The TOC could in theory sell APs such as that every single seat is sold, meaning that when season ticket or walkup ticket holders board, there is not enough space for all First Class ticket holders.

I'm sure it doesn't quite happen to that extent, but the current compensation system is deeply flawed if it is executed based on the current NRCoT minimums.

 

[najaB]

The TOC could in theory sell APs such as that every single seat is sold, meaning that when season ticket or walkup ticket holders board, there is not enough space for all First Class ticket holders.

But that would cut into revenue - TOCs sell as few Advances as possible, they really want to sell full-price fares.

 

[yorkie]

My experience of TPE customer relations is that they are extremely unknowledgeable and make things up.

I do not think their staff are trained on the contents of the NRCoT and their view is that they know the rules and won't be told.

So, while it is pleasing to see you are financially better off than would be the case if they had answered the query correctly, it is disappointing to see they are still making up their own rules.

But I am not at all surprised!

I'd be much more surprised if they started giving out correct information, but I can't see that ever happening as it would need a complete culture change which isn't going to happen.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But that would cut into revenue - TOCs sell as few Advances as possible, they really want to sell full-price fares.

It depends on the TOC! Those which are likely to get most of the revenue from ORCATS will want to sell as few Advances as possible, as you say (although the potential for passengers not to travel at all, without having to give them a refund, is potentially attractive to the TOC). Those who operate on routes where they are not likely to see as much ORCATS revenue as they'd like, are more likely to want to sell APs as they will get all of the money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it is the case even for normal reservable-place Advances. The TOC could in theory sell APs such as that every single seat is sold, meaning that when season ticket or walkup ticket holders board, there is not enough space for all First Class ticket holders.

That's a problem in all classes. In my view Advances should only be sold on trains which typically do not carry standing passengers. They should not be used to "oversell" trains.

Yes, you, LNR.

 

[ricoblade]

Interesting as I nearly had this on Hull Trains in July when I had to travel to London from Retford at less than a day's notice. There were no 1st Class Advance tickets left but of course I was able to book an Anytime Single, albeit with no reservation and I got the last seat as someone hadn't boarded at Brough. Apparently they have 4 walk up seats but they're often taken before Retford on the early morning services. Don't think I'll be risking Hull Trains for a while anyway!

 

[Journeyman]

That's a problem in all classes. In my view Advances should only be sold on trains which typically do not carry standing passengers. They should not be used to "oversell" trains.

Yes, you, LNR.

But that's impossible to quantify, because reservations are not compulsory.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that's impossible to quantify, because reservations are not compulsory.

It's not. TOCs already have, or should have, loading statistics for trains so they have a reasonable idea of loadings. That doesn't mean there will never be standing passengers on a train where there were Advances, but it does mean there should not be wilful oversale. An example of such wilful oversale would be selling any Advances at all (other than First Advances) on trains leaving Euston on a Friday evening from around 1830 to 2100. Or in LNR's case, any 4-car Trent Valley service.

 

[Mag_seven]

In my view Advances should only be sold on trains which typically do not carry standing passengers

I would agree with that as I thought the whole point of cheap advances was to fill up "lightly loaded" services!

 

[sheff1]

TOCs sell as few Advances as possible, they really want to sell full-price fares.

That doesn't seem to apply to Northern. I have just looked and they are offering an Advance from Sheffield to Nottingham at £7.50 for the train departing in 30 mins. It is highly unlikely that many people would be making a optional spur of the moment journey at this time of night. Those making an 'emergency' type journey would, no doubt, be prepared to pay the full fare of £11.90.

Similar Advance offers are available to Manchester & Leeds in the next hour and I would expect them to do the same elsewhere on their network.

 

[Kite159]

That doesn't seem to apply to Northern. I have just looked and they are offering an Advance from Sheffield to Nottingham at £7.50 for the train departing in 30 mins. It is highly unlikely that many people would be making a optional spur of the moment journey at this time of night. Those making an 'emergency' type journey would, no doubt, be prepared to pay the full fare of £11.90.

Similar Advance offers are available to Manchester & Leeds in the next hour and I would expect them to do the same elsewhere on their network.

Although the full fare of £11.90 Northern might receive say half* (with 25% for XC & 25% for EMT) so by selling an advance at £7.50 they (in theory) have made money.

(* Percentages are mere random guesses)

Likewise for open "any permitted" tickets for Manchester - Leeds, TPE would get more of the revenue based on frequency & speed.