First Class Dispute

[Dave_D]

Is going right to the front of the train rather than just waiting in the furthest forward standard class carriage really making a material difference to the time it takes to exit the station

Although I recognise it’s sometimes more about the the principal and getting a “win” (from both the customer and staff members points of view…)

I think on the LNER trains (not the Azumas) the bikes were stored in the front carrisge (southbound).

People would walk through first class to get to their bikes.

My previous point was that this should not continue remaining in first class accomodation and the same should be true of the OP

 

[AlterEgo]

I think on the LNER trains (not the Azumas) the bikes were stored in the front carrisge (southbound).

People would walk through first class to get to their bikes.

My previous point was that this should not continue remaining in first class accomodation and the same should be true of the OP

The OP isn't getting a bike. They are standing in the vestibule.

 

[ScobbyDoo]

Thanks again for everyone who has taken the time to contribute, it's interesting for me to read the range of opinions and gain a better understanding of the rules.

I drove in yesterday (boo), so wasn't able to take photographs. Unfortunately today, the First Class Carriage was moved to the "wrong" end of the train, i.e. it was counter-productive for me to make my way there as I would then have been positioned very far away from the platform and would have to fight through the throng to get to the ticket barriers.

So consequently, this morning I still stood effectively where I would have been, albeit the locomotive was connected to a standard class carriage instead of a first class carriage. As such I could not obtain any useful photos of first class stickers, signs, or a lack thereof, so I'll try and do that on Thursday.

In the meantime, however, if this assists, this is where I would ordinarily be stood ("x" marks the spot), irrespective of whether the connected carriage was standard class or first class. I will be the first to accept that I definitely do not know the rules, however to my simple brain, I am not in the first class carriage at all. I have stepped off of the carriage, and am physically standing (as far as I can tell) on part of the locomotive.

So how could I be deemed to be "remaining" in first class, when I have physically left the first class carriage?

 

[AlterEgo]

I have no idea why you would want to stand there or want to argue the toss about it to be honest. If someone’s asked you to move I’d just move. Life is too short for such esoteric matters.

 

[DarloRich]

I have no idea why you would want to stand there or want to argue the toss about it to be honest. If someone’s asked you to move I’d just move. Life is too short for such esoteric matters.

is the correct answer - I am an argumentative so and so but sometimes it just isn't worth it

 

[800Travel]

Thanks again for everyone who has taken the time to contribute, it's interesting for me to read the range of opinions and gain a better understanding of the rules.

I drove in yesterday (boo), so wasn't able to take photographs. Unfortunately today, the First Class Carriage was moved to the "wrong" end of the train, i.e. it was counter-productive for me to make my way there as I would then have been positioned very far away from the platform and would have to fight through the throng to get to the ticket barriers.

So consequently, this morning I still stood effectively where I would have been, albeit the locomotive was connected to a standard class carriage instead of a first class carriage. As such I could not obtain any useful photos of first class stickers, signs, or a lack thereof, so I'll try and do that on Thursday.

In the meantime, however, if this assists, this is where I would ordinarily be stood ("x" marks the spot), irrespective of whether the connected carriage was standard class or first class. I will be the first to accept that I definitely do not know the rules, however to my simple brain, I am not in the first class carriage at all. I have stepped off of the carriage, and am physically standing (as far as I can tell) on part of the locomotive.

So how could I be deemed to be "remaining" in first class, when I have physically left the first class carriage?

View attachment 176120

Personally, I wouldn't stand there. Far from reasons of which class the coach is etc., purely because it wouldn't feel as safe being between two vehicles. I know that rail travel is quite safe nowadays, but if for example the power car and carriage somehow became uncoupled, you'd likely be much safer in the carriage than the gangway.

 

[John R]

You're actually standing on the power car there, and like others I really don't know why you are being so stubborn about this.

 

[Buzby]

For a good number of years I commuted between Glasgow and Carlisle. I always bought a 2nd Class Return, and on joining went directly to the Dining Car (which was designated with 1st Class decals) in readiness for breakfast commencing. By the time service was complete and I had paid, we were running into Citadel, where I alighted.

My ticket was always inspected and at no time was I ever challenged, so whilst the OP wasn’t getting a meal, the definitions of allowable occupancy are wider than most believe.

 

[ScobbyDoo]

Thanks again to everyone who has posted.

To be clear (I thought my post was clear) I have not stood in or indeed near the first class section since my last post. I’m not sure the question of why someone would choose to stand there is relevant to my query, however since it’s been asked, I can address that.

Often there is a gaggle of people who congregate in this vestibule, and out of politeness I position myself here so others can get in, and so that the conductors can go about their business without me being in their way. I'm not positioning myself here as part of some bizarre one man protest!

If the consensus is that Haywain’s comment (thank you Haywain) that “If you've gone through the first class section to the end of the train the vestibule and everything up to the locked door still counts as first class.” is correct, then my point is completely irrelevant, but either way, I’m simply asking – is this part of the first class carriage or not?

I don't have any skin in this game. I'm not trying to win a point here. I'm simply trying to find the correct answer, and the collective knowledge here (which is gratefully appreciated by the way) seems to be the easiest way to find this out.

 

[matchmaker]

Thanks again to everyone who has posted.

To be clear (I thought my post was clear) I have not stood in or indeed near the first class section since my last post. I’m not sure the question of why someone would choose to stand there is relevant to my query, however since it’s been asked, I can address that.

Often there is a gaggle of people who congregate in this vestibule, and out of politeness I position myself here so others can get in, and so that the conductors can go about their business without me being in their way. I'm not positioning myself here as part of some bizarre one man protest!

If the consensus is that Haywain’s comment (thank you Haywain) that “If you've gone through the first class section to the end of the train the vestibule and everything up to the locked door still counts as first class.” is correct, then my point is completely irrelevant, but either way, I’m simply asking – is this part of the first class carriage or not?

I don't have any skin in this game. I'm not trying to win a point here. I'm simply trying to find the correct answer, and the collective knowledge here (which is gratefully appreciated by the way) seems to be the easiest way to find this out.

It is.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I’m simply asking – is this part of the first class carriage or not?

I'm probably beginning to split hairs here, but it's perhaps worth noting the wording of the relevant byelaw:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths​

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

(source - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws#travel-and-fares-1. Already quoted by Furlong, but repeated to avoid the need to wind back through the thread)

There's no mention here of 'carriages' - the phrase used is 'any part of a train'. So although I don't think that the OP has attempted this argument, the fact that they're not in the first class carriage but beyond it in (just!) the power car isn't of itself relevant.

Without knowing the Scottish stock, it seems to me that the only ways that the OP could reach their position would be by
- walking through a saloon* labelled 'first class', or
- boarding through a door with the words 'First Class' next to it (source - https://showmethejourney.com/travel-on/train/159-scotrail-inter7city-uk/, third picture down)

Unless there's mileage for the argument that leaving the saloon through a door labelled 'first class' takes you out of the first class accommodation, I think I would argue that the vestibule, and the entry to the power car were a 'part of a train (...) reserved for (...) holders of tickets of a specific [i.e. first] class'

*Saloon - the bit with the passenger seats in it.

 

[Dave_D]

Are there notices on these trains? Had a look at a couple of YouTube videos and couldn’t see any. It might be worth the OP checking what it actually says

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Without knowing the Scottish stock

They're refurbished HSTs, so the configuration runs Power Car then First Class Carriage, then rest of train with another Power Car at the far end.

I think on HSTs which have been around since the 1970s, it was always a bit dubious whether it was legitimate to walk through the first class carriage(s) to get to the front of the train at a terminus.

 

[John R]

They're refurbished HSTs, so the configuration runs Power Car then First Class Carriage, then rest of train with another Power Car at the far end.

I think on HSTs which have been around since the 1970s, it was always a bit dubious whether it was legitimate to walk through the first class carriage(s) to get to the front of the train at a terminus.

IIRC it was not uncommon for staff to stop standard passengers doing this on the approach to Paddington, precisely to keep the First Class area purely for First passengers during disembarkation.

 

[LowLevel]

IIRC it was not uncommon for staff to stop standard passengers doing this on the approach to Paddington, precisely to keep the First Class area purely for First passengers during disembarkation.

Various TOCs had doors with locks fitted. Running battles between MML first class hosts and standard class commuters after Luton were common!

 

[stuartl]

As far as I remember, EMR Meridian 1st class vestibules have a sign saying that the area is for first class ticket holders only.

 

[LowLevel]

As far as I remember, EMR Meridian 1st class vestibules have a sign saying that the area is for first class ticket holders only.

They do, though since the HSTs departed and 5 car sets became largely standard it is generally no longer enforced due to regular crowding in standard class.

 

[Elecman]

IIRC it was not uncommon for staff to stop standard passengers doing this on the approach to Paddington, precisely to keep the First Class area purely for First passengers during disembarkation.

Shame Avanti don’t stop standard class people piling through 1st class to be at the front at Euston

 

[Watershed]

Shame Avanti don’t stop standard class people piling through 1st class to be at the front at Euston

I have heard them ask/require "late" arrivals (i.e. those who deign to arrive near the advertised departure time, rather than 2 minutes before it!) to board through the first door and walk through.

 

[duffield]

They do, though since the HSTs departed and 5 car sets became largely standard it is generally no longer enforced due to regular crowding in standard class.

Never enforced that I've seen, the drop-down seats in the 1st vestibules are often used by passengers with standard tickers.

 

[Davester50]

I'm probably beginning to split hairs here, but it's perhaps worth noting the wording of the relevant byelaw:


(source - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws#travel-and-fares-1. Already quoted by Furlong, but repeated to avoid the need to wind back through the thread)

There's no mention here of 'carriages' - the phrase used is 'any part of a train'. So although I don't think that the OP has attempted this argument, the fact that they're not in the first class carriage but beyond it in (just!) the power car isn't of itself relevant.

Without knowing the Scottish stock, it seems to me that the only ways that the OP could reach their position would be by
- walking through a saloon* labelled 'first class', or
- boarding through a door with the words 'First Class' next to it (source - https://showmethejourney.com/travel-on/train/159-scotrail-inter7city-uk/, third picture down)

Unless there's mileage for the argument that leaving the saloon through a door labelled 'first class' takes you out of the first class accommodation, I think I would argue that the vestibule, and the entry to the power car were a 'part of a train (...) reserved for (...) holders of tickets of a specific [i.e. first] class'

*Saloon - the bit with the passenger seats in it.

If the OP is standing on the X, I'd suggest 10.2 is relevant.
"no person shall be in or on any train except the parts of it intended for use by that person"
I doubt the vestibule of the power car is intended as passenger accommodation.