First class compartment on standard only service

[wearytraveller]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but my regular train is timetabled as standard class only. However there is frequently a first class compartment due presumably to Thameslink not giving a monkeys.

If I sit in there, given that they are not allowed to sell a first class ticket for that service, can the RPO fine me for only having my standard class ticket?

 

[yorkie]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but my regular train is timetabled as standard class only. However there is frequently a first class compartment due presumably to Thameslink not giving a monkeys.

If I sit in there, given that they are not allowed to sell a first class ticket for that service

Anyone specifying they wanted to catch that train on a First Class ticket should be advised that there is no First Class accommodation on that service.

As the train does not convey First Class accommodation, if there is a compartment labelled '1st' then it's treated as Standard Class (ie, declassified).

can the RPO fine me for only having my standard class ticket?

Most revenue protection offices are, of course, well trained and competent. However there are insufficient checks and safeguards in place to ensure that they all are, so some might issue a Penalty Fare*; see PF'd in declassified First Class compartment

It's also been known for a certain FGW Guard (based at Exeter, I believe) and a certain Greater Anglia Guard (possibly based at Norwich) to also incorrectly attempt to claim that First Class accommodation exists on trains not advertised to convey it. The FGW Guard even rudely argued with FGW Customer Services by telephone and wouldn't admit he was wrong. Unfortunately I don't have the outcome of the meeting with his manager.

Probably the best thing to do is to accept the PF, even though it's incorrect, and appeal it, complain, and report the matter to the various authorities if you don't get a prompt apology and assurances that it won't happen again.

* A Penalty Fare is not a fine but can be perceived to be a fine; in reality a fine would be far larger but a fine cannot be issued by revenue staff; only by a court.

 

[jon0844]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but my regular train is timetabled as standard class only. However there is frequently a first class compartment due presumably to Thameslink not giving a monkeys.

Yorkie has already given a detailed reply, including a thread I posted in 2009 giving an example. However, I felt like replying to say that Thameslink isn't 'not giving a monkeys' by occasionally running trains that have first class when it isn't offered on that particular service.

It happens as stock is moved/swapped around, and indeed this will often be why some services don't have first class - because there's a chance that some trains will be without first class accommodation. A good example is many peak semi-fast trains on Great Northern. Usually a 4 or 8 car train with first class, but sometimes a 6-car train without. Thus, it NEVER has first class offered.

AGA also run a number of trains to/from Hertford East and none of these have first class, but the majority of trains will be Class 317s with it, over the odd Class 315 without.

What I would advise is that you carry a pocket timetable with you so you can easily show any RPI that it isn't marked as conveying first class. But then bear in mind that many RPIs don't work specific trains, but simply get on/off as required and fill in log sheets later. Thus, it's always possible they won't even know what train they're on - especially if it was delayed for any reason.

Over the years, and certainly since my post, I've never had any serious issues. As in, I've always convinced staff that I'm okay. To date, I've never been given a penalty fare.

That said, I use AGA quite regularly now and have not yet (in about 8 months) ever seen an RPI on a Hertford East train, so have never found myself having to convince anyone.

 

[SAPhil]

I regularly use the first class compartment on advertised standard only services from St Albans. I have had my ticket checked on many occasions (although not since the change of franchise) with no problems.

 

[wearytraveller]

Many thanks for all replies. I keep a photo of the CIS screen on my phone clearly showing the train as standard class to back up the timetable should there be a disagreement.

 

[LowLevel]

The company have 2 ways of approaching it - treat 1st accommodation as standard or declare it to be out of use (ie there is no obligation for you to be allowed to sit there just as any part of any train can be closed off). Most use the 1st option though some individuals seem to be a bit daft about it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the train does not convey First Class accommodation, if there is a compartment labelled '1st' then it's treated as Standard Class (ie, declassified).

Or it can be out of use entirely. If it is, RPIs would have to insist that First Class ticketholders also vacated it.

Neil

 

[jon0844]

Some trains have the fact you can sit in first class displayed on the screens inside the train don't they?

FCC once tried putting stickers up to temporarily declassify first (seen by myself on some 317/1s on the GN line), but it didn't last. Clearly it would have been a nightmare to ensure they were applied and removed before each service, and who would have had the job? I bet the driver flat out refused!

I quite like the fact that some TOCs don't make it too obvious that first class is declassified. It means you can have a relatively quiet journey!

 

[Be3G]

Some trains have the fact you can sit in first class displayed on the screens inside the train don't they?

SWT definitely used to when I commuted with them in the late-2000s.

 

[causton]

What I would advise is that you carry a pocket timetable with you so you can easily show any RPI that it isn't marked as conveying first class. But then bear in mind that many RPIs don't work specific trains, but simply get on/off as required and fill in log sheets later. Thus, it's always possible they won't even know what train they're on - especially if it was delayed for any reason.

Indeed - closest to trouble I had on Thameslink was leaving Elstree + Borehamwood, they said "This is first class" I said "This is a standard class only train" He turned round to his colleague and went "Wait, where are we again? Oh yeah, this is the stopper!" happens to us all I guess!

Southern have one message on the screens of 377s but it's not really worth it IMO. The best one is the Thameslink 377s which have one declassified first compartment with plug sockets! As they still have doors etc people still think it's first class, as the service has first class but at the opposite end

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Usually on the PIS - so if there is a 319/4 or a 319/2 and there is space - enjoy. I often do so -when appropriate with my season ticket , have been checked by RPI's staff - and no issue.

Do not try on a Bedford - Brighton or similar.

 

[Deerfold]

Unusually I got a Northern service with a 1st class compartment a few years ago on a Leeds - Skipton service (on a borrowed unit).

The guard seemed quite excited by it and was telling people as they got on that they were free to sit in the first class section. Most people didn't seem bothered so I had it to myself.

 

[Kite159]

Unusually I got a Northern service with a 1st class compartment a few years ago on a Leeds - Skipton service (on a borrowed unit).

The guard seemed quite excited by it and was telling people as they got on that they were free to sit in the first class section. Most people didn't seem bothered so I had it to myself.

Best is the SWT unit which FGW hires daily, nice FC seating

 

[CC 72100]

A variation on declassified first class is trains which are made first class only. Local arrangements which reduce dwell times and make ticket checks possible mean that certain TMs lock out standard class and use the first class coaches only on some HSTs which form late night stoppers (There is a Paignton - Newton Abbot which does this and a Paignton - Exeter on a Saturday)

It's a very sensible way of doing things to be honest, and results in some impressively short dwell times for slam door stock.

 

[antharro]

Best is the SWT unit which FGW hires daily, nice FC seating

When I travel from London to Bournemouth on a Friday evening, there's usually a SWT 158 or 159 at Southampton Central which shows Westbury on its DMI. Is this the one?

 

[Kite159]

When I travel from London to Bournemouth on a Friday evening, there's usually a SWT 158 or 159 at Southampton Central which shows Westbury on its DMI. Is this the one?

Probably, comes down to Southampton from Cheltenham via Swindon (19:30 from Trowbridge), so probably heads to westbury before heading back to the depot at Salisbury.

Nice relaxed way to come back to Salisbury from Trowbridge, rest of train busy, normally empty in the FC section (until the driver swaps at westbury

 

[pne]

A variation on declassified first class is trains which are made first class only. Local arrangements which reduce dwell times and make ticket checks possible mean that certain TMs lock out standard class and use the first class coaches only on some HSTs which form late night stoppers (There is a Paignton - Newton Abbot which does this and a Paignton - Exeter on a Saturday)

It's a very sensible way of doing things to be honest, and results in some impressively short dwell times for slam door stock.

Is a first class ticket required for that sort of thing?

That is, is the train all "real" first class, or all declassified first class?

 

[CC 72100]

That is, is the train all "real" first class, or all declassified first class?

The train is all declassified first class - there are never normally any 'normal' first class ticket holders who would be eligible for compensation due to declassification who would be on a local train.

 

[wearytraveller]

I got on this train again today and the CIS clearly states standard class only service. But the timetable just as clearly has a 1 atop the column.

Would I still be within my rights to sit in the first compartment?

 

[bb21]

I got on this train again today and the CIS clearly states standard class only service. But the timetable just as clearly has a 1 atop the column.

Would I still be within my rights to sit in the first compartment?

If that is the case then there is no First Class accommodation on the train. Everywhere is Standard.

You are free to sit anywhere.

 

[Bodiddly]

Inverness allocated class 158's (701-725) have a First Class area. This is only used on Inverness to Aberdeen or Inverness to the South. When these units are on Far North duties, First Class is de-classifed and the train is fully standard class. As the First Class seats are the only ones with charging points, they get filled up pretty quickly by the laptop brigade.

 

[SAPhil]

I got on this train again today and the CIS clearly states standard class only service. But the timetable just as clearly has a 1 atop the column.

Would I still be within my rights to sit in the first compartment?

I've seen the reverse this week - where the customer information screen shows first class in front and middle but the timetable shows no first class!

 

[Shempz]

I've seen the reverse this week - where the customer information screen shows first class in front and middle but the timetable shows no first class!

That sounds like a potentially interesting "conversation" between RPI and a passenger if the passenger pulls out a timetable showing no first class!

 

[6Gman]

I sat in 1st on a Meridian working Crewe - Derby y/day, and just to avoid any issue I made sure I had the pocket timetable with me.




Then realised it made no reference to the service being Std Only!

 

[Failed Unit]

Then you have the declassified 1st on Grand Central.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Unusually I got a Northern service with a 1st class compartment a few years ago on a Leeds - Skipton service (on a borrowed unit).

The guard seemed quite excited by it and was telling people as they got on that they were free to sit in the first class section. Most people didn't seem bothered so I had it to myself.

Surprised it was empty, it's not that long ago that 308s (with a small declassified first-class compartment) ran that way... Not that it was much to write home about!
I did rather enjoy travelling first-class up the Penistone line on the borrowed SWT 158 a few years ago.

 

[Starmill]

Aren't most stopping trains on the Wolverhampton - Walsall route worked by class 350s which do have areas marked out as First Class now? A few are still 323s I'm sure, but look how many all day convey FC Accommodation - a mere handful.

In fact all of the ones that do are through workings to and from Liverpool, with this random exception.

 

[dvboy]

Aren't most stopping trains on the Wolverhampton - Walsall route worked by class 350s which do have areas marked out as First Class now? A few are still 323s I'm sure, but look how many all day convey FC Accommodation - a mere handful.

In fact all of the ones that do are through workings to and from Liverpool, with this random exception.

Funnily enough if you turn it the other way around it shows the 0920 Wolves - Walsall as not having First Class but it's quite often operated by a 350 - I've been chucked out of First Class in there (when it was the 0919) and LM disagreed with me on Twitter about it being declassified so I don't bother now. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=85482&highlight=walsall+first

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if GoVia has a different view on Thameslink and Great Northern now it's running these. I've not yet been on a service without first class that has had a ticket check.

Might be necessary to seek clarification again, or ask for something in writing?

Nor have I had one on AGA when using Hertford East trains yet.

I expect with GN, RPIs will still go by the rules they've known for years unless implicitly told otherwise.

 

[wearytraveller]

I've seen the reverse this week - where the customer information screen shows first class in front and middle but the timetable shows no first class!

That seems much more clear cut to me. Passenger has proof the train is standard class only. It's much murkier when the CIS screen is the only reference and that was left behind.